Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 35 of 35
Like Tree15Likes

Thread: Buffoonery at its best...

  1. #21
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I don't want to Monday morning QB this.. ESP with my relatively limited experience.. But is there any benefit to venting that roof? I mean could there be a void space?
    The short answer to your questions is pretty much "no" and "does it matter?".

    The long answer is............

    It's pretty obvious that there is no fire in the actual garage area and the garage doors are wide open, so anything in that area that could be involved with fire and/or in need of being vented would be above a finished ceiling in the garage itself. If you look close enough, the movements of the FFs in the garage are consistent with those used while pulling a ceiling. If they are pulling the ceiling, then any fire up there could be hit from the bottom. Based on that, I think the trip to the roof may have been a little premature.

    Although the video is only about 90 some seconds long, the editing leads me to believe that it was shot over a longer period. During the first part of the video, the fire does not look to be in the living areas. It looks very much like only most of the roof area is actually involved with fire. To me that says that it's likely that the different sections of the "attic space" are not isolated from each other and the fire is "running the roof". Regardless, from the angle of the video, it pretty much looks like the section they want to vent is the only part without fire already venting from it and it's a really small part.

    So, there's really no benefit to venting that roof in the location in which they were working.

    It's a little hard to tell from the angle of the video, but that area of the garage could be a "void space" rather than being "open" or "attic" space. Regardless, venting that particular area under those conditions would yield the same benefit mentioned above - none.


  2. #22
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,893

    Default

    To me the tactics of this incident are irrelevant to this mishap. The mishap didn't occur directly because of the tactics it occurred because of a failure to follow basic ladder practices and butt the ladder on a slick surface. Ladder used on cement, asphalt or snow an ice covered surface MUST be butted or tied off. It is really that simple. Perhaps butting the ladder is not so critical when using a ladder on a soft surface where you can bury the heel spurs into grass or dirt. It would still be safer if butted or tied off but how many among us here have painted our house, or cleaned the gutters, or done siding, without having the ladder butted?

    I watched this video a few times and to me the entire venting operation could have been done safer if thay had reporistioned to the B side of the building so a roof ladder could have been used, AND if the second FF had smply stayed on the ground and butted the ladder.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  3. #23
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    To me the tactics of this incident are irrelevant to this mishap. The mishap didn't occur directly because of the tactics it occurred because of a failure to follow basic ladder practices and butt the ladder on a slick surface.
    It was both. The ladder would not have fallen if it had been on a better surface and been properly heeled, but tactically it should have never been raised to begin with.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  4. #24
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    p.s. In my opinion, on a public forum critiquing a video is a learning process, not Monday morning quarterbacking. I don't know when discussing this stuff became taboo.
    You're right. We have had issues on here with people making ridiculous assumptions when they couldn't see or hear what was happening, and from there everybody got gun-shy.

    Unheeled ladder on ice, raised to vent roof that doesn't need it. Facts is facts.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber Chief_Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    197

    Default

    I like how the chief (or maybe it was the IC) in the white helmet comes over at around 1:01 to see what happened. Then he's like, "sh#$ I'm outta here."

  6. #26
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    2

    Default Wow

    Yes, in this situation the ladder should have been butted/tended in some way but, I agree with some other comments, why in the world are you venting this roof anyway? Nothing would/is being accomplished by venting this structure, they should have known better! Stupidity and tunnel vision lead to a scary situation.. Hope these guys are ok, and learn from their mistakes!

  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MFD171 View Post
    Yes, in this situation the ladder should have been butted/tended in some way but, I agree with some other comments, why in the world are you venting this roof anyway? Nothing would/is being accomplished by venting this structure, they should have known better! Stupidity and tunnel vision lead to a scary situation.. Hope these guys are ok, and learn from their mistakes!
    One thing I noticed in our area is that roof ventilation has become a checklist box that needs to filled on nearly every structure fire. The amount of time spent in FF 1 and 2 programs on vertical vent seems to have made this an "always". Lacking formal tactics training mnay VFD's most knowledgeable members are those who have attended a fire academy thus every tactic that on the hands on test becomes the basic tactical worksheet for real runs.
    DKennedy82 likes this.

  8. #28
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    One thing I noticed in our area is that roof ventilation has become a checklist box that needs to filled on nearly every structure fire. The amount of time spent in FF 1 and 2 programs on vertical vent seems to have made this an "always". Lacking formal tactics training mnay VFD's most knowledgeable members are those who have attended a fire academy thus every tactic that on the hands on test becomes the basic tactical worksheet for real runs.
    Excellent points! A lot of departments seem to get tunnel vision and rush to accomplish unneeded tasks. There needs to be a reminder of just how dynamic fireground operations can be. In this particular video, exposure protection would have been a higher priority than venting, especially since this fire had already self vented. I don't know the conditions inside, or how high the ceilings are in there, but I imagine there was a point when an aggressive interior attack could have stopped this fire.
    IAFF

  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,812

    Default

    Again, just my observation in our area but it appears that the training requirements placed on volunteers makes it difficult for many FD's to expand outside the minimum state/OSHA/DOL annual refresher stuff, thus many seem to seriously lack any formal tactics/strategies programs. This creates a situation where the FD fights the same fire in every different building they're called to, ignoring many of the dynamic factors encountered.

    I certainly don't see this issue as a reason to reduce the annual training requirements but a real indication of why VFD's are struggling more and more in many areas. As hard as it is to keep up with mandatory training and provide relevant training needs to career staff, I can't imagine being a chief officer in an all VFD short of a few of the "tight ships" I've seen.
    mtngael likes this.

  10. #30
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Again, just my observation in our area but it appears that the training requirements placed on volunteers makes it difficult for many FD's to expand outside the minimum state/OSHA/DOL annual refresher stuff, thus many seem to seriously lack any formal tactics/strategies programs. This creates a situation where the FD fights the same fire in every different building they're called to, ignoring many of the dynamic factors encountered.

    I certainly don't see this issue as a reason to reduce the annual training requirements but a real indication of why VFD's are struggling more and more in many areas. As hard as it is to keep up with mandatory training and provide relevant training needs to career staff, I can't imagine being a chief officer in an all VFD short of a few of the "tight ships" I've seen.
    How onerous are the training requirements in your area? In our area, there is one mandatory Right To Know/Blood Borne Pathogens training seminar we get out of the way in January when it is cold. Of the outfits I have been with, those that have training on a set night once or twice a month, even if it is something impromptu, are those that have their act together. I am part of an outfit that refuses to train on a regular basis. I've seen officers cut vertical vents on opposite ends (B and D sides) when there was only fire in the C/D corner of the structure. To cap it off, one of the officers checked extension by climbing in the vent hole. This is not a joke.

    This video does not surprise me. Stuff like this happens frequently.

  11. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    How onerous are the training requirements in your area?
    Here's what comes to mind quickly for state requirements:
    BBP/Right to Know
    Haz-com (MSDS)
    Haz-mat refresher (hrs are level dependent)
    SCBA
    driver training
    new or changed policies

    My department also requires we meet ISO training requirements and those refresher hours required to maintain training levels by the certifying agency.

  12. #32
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,893

    Default

    Seriously, if a TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTER needs refresher training on the importance of butting a ladder, or tying a ladder off, so it doesn't kick out on them when it is being climbed, there are far more serious issues than what mandatory training is required.

    For the love of God, butting a ladder is a basic entry level skill that MUST be taught during that firefighter's initial training. It is NOT a complicated skill that requires refresher. Either you are smart enough to do it or you pay the price of injuries or possibly even death when the ladder kicks out. When I teach ladders I instruct the butt man to NEVER let go of the ladder if someone is on the ladder. NEVER! Because that momentary lapse can be a career ender if the ladder falls.

    Be safe out there.

    Merry Christmas!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #33
    Forum Member Miller337's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, if a TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTER needs refresher training on the importance of butting a ladder, or tying a ladder off, so it doesn't kick out on them when it is being climbed, there are far more serious issues than what mandatory training is required.

    For the love of God, butting a ladder is a basic entry level skill that MUST be taught during that firefighter's initial training. It is NOT a complicated skill that requires refresher. Either you are smart enough to do it or you pay the price of injuries or possibly even death when the ladder kicks out. When I teach ladders I instruct the butt man to NEVER let go of the ladder if someone is on the ladder. NEVER! Because that momentary lapse can be a career ender if the ladder falls.

    Be safe out there.

    Merry Christmas!
    Did I miss something? Are you saying that the firefighters in the video where certified at the least to firefighter 1?

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,893

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Did I miss something? Are you saying that the firefighters in the video where certified at the least to firefighter 1?
    You did miss something. I said TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED. I would hope that if those firefighters were operating on the fireground that they would be trained to at least a basic skill level.

    To be brutally honest I was being generic more than specifically talking about the firefighters in the video.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #35
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    as was mentioned, looks likes the fire is already vented, why are you on the roof of the garage? esp when there is no fire in the garage, as can be shown by all the FFs inside working.

    and if there is that much snow and ice, you should be footing the ladder. esp on an asphalt driveway. no excuses for it. a completely preventable accident.

    I hope both the FFs that fell were ok.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts