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Thread: Buffoonery at its best...

  1. #26
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    Yes, in this situation the ladder should have been butted/tended in some way but, I agree with some other comments, why in the world are you venting this roof anyway? Nothing would/is being accomplished by venting this structure, they should have known better! Stupidity and tunnel vision lead to a scary situation.. Hope these guys are ok, and learn from their mistakes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MFD171 View Post
    Yes, in this situation the ladder should have been butted/tended in some way but, I agree with some other comments, why in the world are you venting this roof anyway? Nothing would/is being accomplished by venting this structure, they should have known better! Stupidity and tunnel vision lead to a scary situation.. Hope these guys are ok, and learn from their mistakes!
    One thing I noticed in our area is that roof ventilation has become a checklist box that needs to filled on nearly every structure fire. The amount of time spent in FF 1 and 2 programs on vertical vent seems to have made this an "always". Lacking formal tactics training mnay VFD's most knowledgeable members are those who have attended a fire academy thus every tactic that on the hands on test becomes the basic tactical worksheet for real runs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    One thing I noticed in our area is that roof ventilation has become a checklist box that needs to filled on nearly every structure fire. The amount of time spent in FF 1 and 2 programs on vertical vent seems to have made this an "always". Lacking formal tactics training mnay VFD's most knowledgeable members are those who have attended a fire academy thus every tactic that on the hands on test becomes the basic tactical worksheet for real runs.
    Excellent points! A lot of departments seem to get tunnel vision and rush to accomplish unneeded tasks. There needs to be a reminder of just how dynamic fireground operations can be. In this particular video, exposure protection would have been a higher priority than venting, especially since this fire had already self vented. I don't know the conditions inside, or how high the ceilings are in there, but I imagine there was a point when an aggressive interior attack could have stopped this fire.
    IAFF

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    Again, just my observation in our area but it appears that the training requirements placed on volunteers makes it difficult for many FD's to expand outside the minimum state/OSHA/DOL annual refresher stuff, thus many seem to seriously lack any formal tactics/strategies programs. This creates a situation where the FD fights the same fire in every different building they're called to, ignoring many of the dynamic factors encountered.

    I certainly don't see this issue as a reason to reduce the annual training requirements but a real indication of why VFD's are struggling more and more in many areas. As hard as it is to keep up with mandatory training and provide relevant training needs to career staff, I can't imagine being a chief officer in an all VFD short of a few of the "tight ships" I've seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Again, just my observation in our area but it appears that the training requirements placed on volunteers makes it difficult for many FD's to expand outside the minimum state/OSHA/DOL annual refresher stuff, thus many seem to seriously lack any formal tactics/strategies programs. This creates a situation where the FD fights the same fire in every different building they're called to, ignoring many of the dynamic factors encountered.

    I certainly don't see this issue as a reason to reduce the annual training requirements but a real indication of why VFD's are struggling more and more in many areas. As hard as it is to keep up with mandatory training and provide relevant training needs to career staff, I can't imagine being a chief officer in an all VFD short of a few of the "tight ships" I've seen.
    How onerous are the training requirements in your area? In our area, there is one mandatory Right To Know/Blood Borne Pathogens training seminar we get out of the way in January when it is cold. Of the outfits I have been with, those that have training on a set night once or twice a month, even if it is something impromptu, are those that have their act together. I am part of an outfit that refuses to train on a regular basis. I've seen officers cut vertical vents on opposite ends (B and D sides) when there was only fire in the C/D corner of the structure. To cap it off, one of the officers checked extension by climbing in the vent hole. This is not a joke.

    This video does not surprise me. Stuff like this happens frequently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    How onerous are the training requirements in your area?
    Here's what comes to mind quickly for state requirements:
    BBP/Right to Know
    Haz-com (MSDS)
    Haz-mat refresher (hrs are level dependent)
    SCBA
    driver training
    new or changed policies

    My department also requires we meet ISO training requirements and those refresher hours required to maintain training levels by the certifying agency.

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    Seriously, if a TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTER needs refresher training on the importance of butting a ladder, or tying a ladder off, so it doesn't kick out on them when it is being climbed, there are far more serious issues than what mandatory training is required.

    For the love of God, butting a ladder is a basic entry level skill that MUST be taught during that firefighter's initial training. It is NOT a complicated skill that requires refresher. Either you are smart enough to do it or you pay the price of injuries or possibly even death when the ladder kicks out. When I teach ladders I instruct the butt man to NEVER let go of the ladder if someone is on the ladder. NEVER! Because that momentary lapse can be a career ender if the ladder falls.

    Be safe out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, if a TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTER needs refresher training on the importance of butting a ladder, or tying a ladder off, so it doesn't kick out on them when it is being climbed, there are far more serious issues than what mandatory training is required.

    For the love of God, butting a ladder is a basic entry level skill that MUST be taught during that firefighter's initial training. It is NOT a complicated skill that requires refresher. Either you are smart enough to do it or you pay the price of injuries or possibly even death when the ladder kicks out. When I teach ladders I instruct the butt man to NEVER let go of the ladder if someone is on the ladder. NEVER! Because that momentary lapse can be a career ender if the ladder falls.

    Be safe out there.

    Merry Christmas!
    Did I miss something? Are you saying that the firefighters in the video where certified at the least to firefighter 1?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Did I miss something? Are you saying that the firefighters in the video where certified at the least to firefighter 1?
    You did miss something. I said TRAINED and/or CERTIFIED. I would hope that if those firefighters were operating on the fireground that they would be trained to at least a basic skill level.

    To be brutally honest I was being generic more than specifically talking about the firefighters in the video.
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    as was mentioned, looks likes the fire is already vented, why are you on the roof of the garage? esp when there is no fire in the garage, as can be shown by all the FFs inside working.

    and if there is that much snow and ice, you should be footing the ladder. esp on an asphalt driveway. no excuses for it. a completely preventable accident.

    I hope both the FFs that fell were ok.
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