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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Posted by SC
    Dialogue is not a solution.
    Dialogue may not be a solution, but it is the beginning of one....
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This statement makes no sense. Which houses have caused the violent deaths of 20 six year olds at one time? Should we as a society allow anything if one person "wants" it? Regardless of the impact to others?

    Talk about making no sense. Did you learn to debate in off topic nonsense school?

    Clearly if what I have to do my activity with, and what activity I am doing is legal, such as target shooting with a 30 round magazine, there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly, you don't have to like it. There are many activities that others participate in that are perfectly legal that annoy the begeezus out of me and clearly have been proven to be dangerous. The difference is as long as their activity is legal I would not expect them to stop that activity.


    Should I be allowed to drive my car up and down the street in front of your house at 100 mph because it's a hobby I enjoy and want to do it?

    Stupid analogy once again. Driving up and down the street at 100mph is illegal. Owning a 30 round magazine for legal purposes is not. Truth is you have proven you have nothing left because you keep dancing off into just plain stupid diversions.

    I also believe the issue of mental health should be addressed. I'm sure there are things that can also be done to help in reducing their access to firearms.

    I am sure there are too. Like stop window dressing mental health diagnosis and treatment and get serious about confining people with violent tendacies. The Sandy Hook shppter was known to have issues so why wasn't he institutionalized to get the help he needed?
    The guns I own are under lock and key with the key kept distant from the gun safe. No one will get them unless they bring tools to destroy my gun safe. Yeah, good luck with that.
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    I've been thinking about this issue. One thing that would give teachers a fighting chance (IMO) is the ability to lock the door from the inside. A dead bolt system that can flipped with a lever on the inside and keypad entry on the outside. With a solid door that would give the teacher the ability to shelter their students in place against an intruder.

    Cheaper than an armed security guard. Better than nothing.

    Comments?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Talk about making no sense. Did you learn to debate in off topic nonsense school?
    No. That zooming sound you heard was the point going past you.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Clearly if what I have to do my activity with, and what activity I am doing is legal, such as target shooting with a 30 round magazine, there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly, you don't have to like it. There are many activities that others participate in that are perfectly legal that annoy the begeezus out of me and clearly have been proven to be dangerous. The difference is as long as their activity is legal I would not expect them to stop that activity.
    I don't have to stand for someone else's wants if that involves giving others the ability to kill a lot of people in a short period of time. I can unequivocally state that people in other countries enjoy firearms and shooting without 30 round magazines. LIke Israel. A nation you earlier believed we should emulate.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Stupid analogy once again. Driving up and down the street at 100mph is illegal. Owning a 30 round magazine for legal purposes is not. Truth is you have proven you have nothing left because you keep dancing off into just plain stupid diversions.
    It is illegal because it is dangerous to others. Which is why I would have no problem applying the same logic to owning magazines larger than 10 rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am sure there are too. Like stop window dressing mental health diagnosis and treatment and get serious about confining people with violent tendacies. The Sandy Hook shppter was known to have issues so why wasn't he institutionalized to get the help he needed?
    Apparently his mother was trying to get him institutionalized and might have been a reason for his reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The guns I own are under lock and key with the key kept distant from the gun safe. No one will get them unless they bring tools to destroy my gun safe. Yeah, good luck with that.
    Same here. What's your point?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've been thinking about this issue. One thing that would give teachers a fighting chance (IMO) is the ability to lock the door from the inside. A dead bolt system that can flipped with a lever on the inside and keypad entry on the outside. With a solid door that would give the teacher the ability to shelter their students in place against an intruder.

    Cheaper than an armed security guard. Better than nothing.

    Comments?
    I currently work at a call center and we use magnetic locks to access actual work areas. If we used ballistic glass, and each door was locked and only the teacher had the key to their doors and 1 master key for the principle.. While still employing camera footage and the ability to lock down the building like a prison would help. It is what it is.... Schools are soft targets of opportunity, no weapons no one with training etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I currently work at a call center and we use magnetic locks to access actual work areas. If we used ballistic glass, and each door was locked and only the teacher had the key to their doors and 1 master key for the principle.. While still employing camera footage and the ability to lock down the building like a prison would help. It is what it is.... Schools are soft targets of opportunity, no weapons no one with training etc.
    Sad that we have to think in these terms now. But once upon a time we didn't need reinforced doors on airplanes either.
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    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.

    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I never said that was the case. I was making a point about proficiency. But you stated the time used in changing magazines was irrelevant when in fact it was that time that bystanders in the Gifford's shooting used to subdue their attacker. You stated had Loughner been proficient there would have been more dead victims. That is a hypothetical. I could easily state hypotheticals that would have led to less carnage that morning. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, his victims would have had to wait over three times longer before making their move. But...had he only had a 10 round magazine, they could have made their move sooner.

    The point is, that reduced magazine capacity is but one of many easily done factors that might start to address the issue of gun violence causing the amount of victims we currently see in these types of shootings. Had a 10 round limit been in effect, it is more than likely that Adam Lanza's mother would have only owned magazines of that capacity since she was a law abiding gun owner and that was the source of her son's weaponry.
    The most fired weapon at Columbine was a carbine with a 10 round magazine. That right there totally disproves your arguement, and any other for 10 round magazines. Not to mention that you could just to the "Matrix" method and just strap your self up with a bunch of cheap handguns and blaze away. Heck, a motivated shooter can just about speed load a shotgun with a five round magazine for quite some time. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, he probably wouldn't have had a very good percentage rate of hitting people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've addressed my thoughts on this several times.


    So you absolutely need a magazine capacity larger than 10 rounds to enjoy your hobby? This makes no sense. I can cite numerous restrictions on the hobbies of others. Cars and airplanes readily come to mind.
    You're obviously stuck on the 10 round magazine issue, which won't do a damn thing. Evidently you need something to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Hate to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen.

    How about we work on keeping criminals and crazies away from guns, and leave the law abiding gun owners alone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.

    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
    And let's not forget, the outside of a school is always vunderable. That's what happend in the San Francisco school shooting.

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    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.
    The answer is easy enough. A simple key lock on the inside door, or a pass card type key. It still doesn't eliminate the fact that a determined gunman can shoot the latch off the door.
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    Background checks for the person that purchases the guns.

    Did the mass murderer at Newtown purchase the guns he used?
    Did the murderer in Webster NY purchase the guns he used?

    So much for background checks.

    You guys talk about "feel good" restrictions....there is big one right there. It quite obviously did nothing in these 2 cases...and many more that used stolen weapons.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.
    I agree. My idea is there is at least something a teacher could do. BigGriff detailed a system that would work that addresses those issues. The idea is to make it more difficult for a shooter to find targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
    I disagree. Hardened doors will discourage most assailants given they are looking for quick easy prey. If they encounter a barrier that doesn't allow that I believe they would go to the next room. I doubt they are going to spend time trying to get into rooms that are deadbolted. As far as the window issue is concerned. The second thing the teacher does after dead bolting the door is draw the blinds. That effectively blinds the shooter. While blinds aren't bulletproof it helps to frustrate the shooter.

    These are not military spec ops troops. You are giving them way too much credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The answer is easy enough. A simple key lock on the inside door, or a pass card type key. It still doesn't eliminate the fact that a determined gunman can shoot the latch off the door.
    A solid core door with hardened hinges should stand up to most of the weapons that are used by these types. Delaying the gunman gives the victims a way to fight back and hopefully allows the cavalry time to get on scene.

    Interesting that you don't want to do anything at all to delay and deflect a shooter's attention. I would prefer schools not be turned into armed camps. An armed guard would be helped by such a system in place knowing that a shooter is being frustrated by gaining entry to classrooms.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    The most fired weapon at Columbine was a carbine with a 10 round magazine. That right there totally disproves your arguement, and any other for 10 round magazines. Not to mention that you could just to the "Matrix" method and just strap your self up with a bunch of cheap handguns and blaze away. Heck, a motivated shooter can just about speed load a shotgun with a five round magazine for quite some time. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, he probably wouldn't have had a very good percentage rate of hitting people.
    The victims at the Giffords shooting tackled Loughner while he was reloading. Same with the students who were being shot by Kip Kinkel. I can't explain the reactions of the students at Columbine. Human behavior isn't predictable. Once again you are falling into the trap of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Time is an enemy to an attacker in this scenario. The more time they are dealing with hardened entry points is more time for the good guys to get there and deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    You're obviously stuck on the 10 round magazine issue, which won't do a damn thing. Evidently you need something to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Hate to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen.

    How about we work on keeping criminals and crazies away from guns, and leave the law abiding gun owners alone?
    Should we adopt the Israeli model?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.
    Every school I've been in on an inspection or where my wife has worked has had locks on the classroom side. The hall side has a keyhole. This is utilized on lockdowns so that the teachers (or whoever) can lock the room and make it harder for an intruder to enter. I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Should we adopt the Israeli model?
    What is wrong with the security guard model? The vast majority of these shooters are looking for soft targets. Armed security prevents this.

    In the case of Lanza, had there been an armed guard at the school, how long would it have taken to respond to the entrance that Lanza broke into? Lanza may have managed killed some in the office, but likely would have been stopped prior to killing as many as he did, if he had even attempted it in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Every school I've been in on an inspection or where my wife has worked has had locks on the classroom side. The hall side has a keyhole. This is utilized on lockdowns so that the teachers (or whoever) can lock the room and make it harder for an intruder to enter. I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I agree. My idea is there is at least something a teacher could do. BigGriff detailed a system that would work that addresses those issues. The idea is to make it more difficult for a shooter to find targets.

    It makes it difficult, not impossible. A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.


    I disagree. Hardened doors will discourage most assailants given they are looking for quick easy prey. If they encounter a barrier that doesn't allow that I believe they would go to the next room. I doubt they are going to spend time trying to get into rooms that are deadbolted. As far as the window issue is concerned. The second thing the teacher does after dead bolting the door is draw the blinds. That effectively blinds the shooter. While blinds aren't bulletproof it helps to frustrate the shooter.

    A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.

    Draw the blinds? Really? That will somehow make a room that was moments ago full of children a non-target? Sorry not buying that. If a determined shooter wants in and they can't get in the door windows will be the next obvious choice of entry whether you "high security" blinds are closed or not.



    These are not military spec ops troops. You are giving them way too much credit.

    And you aren't giving them enough. Look at the planning and logistics that go into these shootings. They are well aware they may not survive and they don't care and that is why they PLAN how to do as much damage as quickly as they can.


    A solid core door with hardened hinges should stand up to most of the weapons that are used by these types. Delaying the gunman gives the victims a way to fight back and hopefully allows the cavalry time to get on scene.

    A few well placed rounds on the latching mechanism or the hinges will open that door easily. Frankly you are delusional if you believe schools will replace all their interior doors with solid core doors.

    Interesting that you don't want to do anything at all to delay and deflect a shooter's attention. I would prefer schools not be turned into armed camps. An armed guard would be helped by such a system in place knowing that a shooter is being frustrated by gaining entry to classrooms.

    Not true. The schools my kids have gone to have been locked during the day for well over 10 years. That doesn't change the fact that they have glass panels next to them that can be easily broken to allow manipulating the interior latch to open the door. It also doesn't eliminate the fact that all the schools except the elementary school have anywhere between 4 and 8 windows in each classroom.

    So have you changed your mind and now you are supporting having an armed guard at schools?
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It makes it difficult, not impossible. A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon

    A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.

    Draw the blinds? Really? That will somehow make a room that was moments ago full of children a non-target? Sorry not buying that. If a determined shooter wants in and they can't get in the door windows will be the next obvious choice of entry whether you "high security" blinds are closed or not.

    And you aren't giving them enough. Look at the planning and logistics that go into these shootings. They are well aware they may not survive and they don't care and that is why they PLAN how to do as much damage as quickly as they can.

    Not true. The schools my kids have gone to have been locked during the day for well over 10 years. That doesn't change the fact that they have glass panels next to them that can be easily broken to allow manipulating the interior latch to open the door. It also doesn't eliminate the fact that all the schools except the elementary school have anywhere between 4 and 8 windows in each classroom.
    Again. You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I never said it would be completely impossible. But the changes I've suggested will slow down the attacker. The clock is ticking giving the teachers time to hide their students like they did in Newtown. The longer the attacker needs to force a door with steel hinges and steel lined dead bolts the more time the good guys have to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So have you changed your mind and now you are supporting having an armed guard at schools?
    Never been opposed to it. If I used your logic that would be worthless given there was an armed guard at Columbine. At VA Tech, they had an entire police force. Students at VA Tech barricaded the doors in one instance and the gunman went to a lesser obstructed classroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
    True. But there are things that can be done to delay and make it more difficult for an attacker to carry out their plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
    At the high school I attended all the doors locked automatically and the teacher would buzz you in. Depending on the situation the students could also exit into what was called the core which all the classrooms on each section surrounded. All of the doors into the core had bullet resistant glass and a layer of steel plate inside the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
    You're 100% right, however, we all know that gun bans are not the answer, we also know that mental health issues will never be taken seriously ever again.. So we need to focus on the school infastructure, and how we handle criminals... We can't stop people from driving like idiots so we make cars "safer" sort of thing, sure people still die in cars but would it be worse if the medical treatment, extrication, and safety
    Advancements were not created? Me thinks yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
    I'm sure there are. I was more concerned with the guy I replied to trying to say that school doors lock from the hall side rather than the classroom side and suggesting locks that would violate the codes and ADA requirements.

    Any lock that doesn't unlock easily from the exterior of the classroom would slow a would-be assailant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.
    I didn't say that. I said that many schools don't have interior locks because the kids can lock themselves in the room and keep the teachers from entering. Works great for fights and stuff, which typically last less than a minute. You remember those days in high school, right?

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.
    IIRC, our state codes are why our schools don't have push button locks on the inside, according to one of our principals. I know our administrators and school board have discussed putting interior access door locks on all our classrooms, but I don't know the outcome of those discussions. I haven't tried to find the codes for myself.

    BTW, I'm not stirring any arguments or picking any sides here. I'm just stating what the situation is at our local schools. I'm sure that the types of doors, locks, and codes vary from school to school and state to state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    I didn't say that. I said that many schools don't have interior locks because the kids can lock themselves in the room and keep the teachers from entering. Works great for fights and stuff, which typically last less than a minute. You remember those days in high school, right?

    I must have read what you were saying wrong, then. We just went off-campus for our fights, wasn't any sense doing it at school.

    IIRC, our state codes are why our schools don't have push button locks on the inside, according to one of our principals. I know our administrators and school board have discussed putting interior access door locks on all our classrooms, but I don't know the outcome of those discussions. I haven't tried to find the codes for myself.

    BTW, I'm not stirring any arguments or picking any sides here. I'm just stating what the situation is at our local schools. I'm sure that the types of doors, locks, and codes vary from school to school and state to state.
    To meet ADA or any code I'm familiar with, as long as the lock can be disengaged the the door opened in a single motion with a closed fist, it should comply with both. All this takes is a long-handled door latch with a push-button lock that disengages when the handle is operated. In the hallways they'll typically utilize panic hardware, which could be used in a classroom, but would be a bit more expensive.
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