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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

  1. #201
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    I agree with all of that, comprehensive background checks with solid deniability is essential. Add as you stated denial for violent misdemeanors, a waiting period of say 30 days and add a persons mental heath history, you have a solid plan.
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    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Yet all of the background checks in the world wouldn't have saved the lives of the two West Webster firefighters - the weapons were purchased legally by someone else, allegedly on the behalf of the shooter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarack808 View Post
    @SPFDRun: Don't misunderstand me, I'm not at all opposed to the discussion/debate over gun laws, etc. And yes, that's the whole purpose of having an online discussion forum, for those in the fire service or elsewhere. My thing is that this particular thread was created to acknowledge the tragedy that befell those victims in Newtown (children and adults) and allowed us to pay our preverbial respects online.

    However, people instead have used this thread topic as a spring board to argue over gun laws, with almost no mention of the children or the specifics of the Newtown event whatsoever. In my opinion, that is grandstanding, and that trivializes the intent of this thread.

    Again, I'm not opposed to the discussion at all. Just saying that it should have been a separate thread. If it weren't for the title of the thread, someone reading pages 2 through 10 would have absolutely no idea what this thread was originally created for. I know we get off topic from time to time, but I put that admonition on page one for a reason.
    As the OP, I have no issues with this discussion occurring in the thread. It was not intended purely as a memorial. it was intended as a place for folks to post their thoughts about the event, and I have no issues with the discussion of gun control being part of that discussion.

    That is all.
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  4. #204
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet all of the background checks in the world wouldn't have saved the lives of the two West Webster firefighters - the weapons were purchased legally by someone else, allegedly on the behalf of the shooter.
    I am going to need you to please keep factual information to yourself. It tends to mess up the message others are trying to push backed with nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet all of the background checks in the world wouldn't have saved the lives of the two West Webster firefighters - the weapons were purchased legally by someone else, allegedly on the behalf of the shooter.
    Same with the guns used in Newtown. All were purchased legally...and then used illegally.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet all of the background checks in the world wouldn't have saved the lives of the two West Webster firefighters - the weapons were purchased legally by someone else, allegedly on the behalf of the shooter.
    That is certainly true in the Newtown case. However, there is empirical proof that restrictions work in states that have adopted them.

    If we aren't going to pass laws because it won't stop all criminals, then we should get rid of all laws and just accept illegal activity as the risk one takes living in our society.

    If you believe stricter laws won't make a difference then there is no downside to passing them.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-31-2012 at 12:13 AM.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That is certainly true in the Newtown case. However, there is empirical proof that restrictions work in states that have adopted them.

    Really? You mean like California with some of the strictest gun laws in the country and yet the highest gun murder rate? Yeah t seems to be working there....NOT!! Or maybe you are implying that instead of around 1200 gun deaths a year there it would be 3000 to 5000 without those laws. Either way, they have the hoghest gun deaths in the country.

    If we aren't going to pass laws because it won't stop all criminals, then we should get rid of all laws and just accept illegal activity as the risk one takes living in our society.

    Stupid answer and beneath you. The truth is criminals and the mentally ill don't follow laws. You could have a million laws and it won't matter to them. I am not saying get rid of all laws, but until the discussion gets away from the emotional, knee jerk, clap trap of adding more gun laws to punish non-criminals nothing will be solved and these events will happen again and again and again.

    To me one of the issues is the absolutely abysmal failure of the mental health care in this country. The fact that so many mentally ill people are essentially left to fend for themselves with no supervison, no care, no nothing is shameful and we should be both embarrassed and horrified by that. The second part is we need to have mandatory sentences for using guns in the commission of a crime and those that supply guns illegally to felons need to be charges with EXACTLY the same crime as the felon that committed the crime. In other words that wman who supplied the shooter with the guns in New York should be tried for 2 counts of murder and 2 counts of attemted murder, illegal possession of firearms and whatever else they can tack on to her. Maybe then some of this will be slowed. It will NEVER stop because there will always be low lifes that will do anything for anyone for the right price.


    If you believe stricter laws won't make a difference then there is no downside to passing them.

    Good lord man do you even read the nonsense you post? Of course there is a downside. Law abiding citizens, for the most part, will obey the new laws and have further restrictions placed on them despite the fact that they pose no threat to anyone. You seriously can't mean have the crap you have posted here. It is almost scarecrow like in its complete nonsensical nature.
    The answer from the gun control crowd is pass feel good knee jerk emotional legislation that doesn't come close to addressing the issues. But then again that is always easier than actual doing anything meaningful.
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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    In 1974, Massachusetts passed the Bartley-Fox gun law, which required a special permit to carry a handgun outside of the home or business. It also had a penalty of a minimum of a year in jail for a crime using a gun.

    In the first six months, there was a drop in crime using guns... but crimes without guns increased.

    Guess what gets plea bargained at almost every gun crime trial?
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    The problem is that we're not dealing with the problem - and the problem isn't guns, it's the people using them.

    I read recently (as part of the on-going debate following the current round of shootings) that many of the shooters have been on various psych medicines - the implication being that the meds may very well have been part of the problem, or at the very least that these were folks known to have psych issues. Instead of dealing with those problems, we just medicated them and felt we'd dealt with the issue. Obviously we hadn't.

    While I haven't seen a cohesive timeline, it is now coming out that the West Webster shooter was living with a sister he hated, had recently lost his much beloved mother, and that the sister was planning to sell the family home, having bought another house to move to. That certainly doesn't justify what he did, but it does shed some light on his mental state.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Really? You mean like California with some of the strictest gun laws in the country and yet the highest gun murder rate? Yeah t seems to be working there....NOT!! Or maybe you are implying that instead of around 1200 gun deaths a year there it would be 3000 to 5000 without those laws. Either way, they have the hoghest gun deaths in the country.
    It's working better than many states that have very lax gun laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Stupid answer and beneath you. The truth is criminals and the mentally ill don't follow laws. You could have a million laws and it won't matter to them. I am not saying get rid of all laws, but until the discussion gets away from the emotional, knee jerk, clap trap of adding more gun laws to punish non-criminals nothing will be solved and these events will happen again and again and again.
    So the answer is to do nothing? This also makes no sense. Also, if we are only going to pass laws based upon a belief of them stopping 100% of the criminal activity, we shouldn't have any laws at all. That is the logic you are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Good lord man do you even read the nonsense you post? Of course there is a downside. Law abiding citizens, for the most part, will obey the new laws and have further restrictions placed on them despite the fact that they pose no threat to anyone. You seriously can't mean have the crap you have posted here. It is almost scarecrow like in its complete nonsensical nature.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The answer from the gun control crowd is pass feel good knee jerk emotional legislation that doesn't come close to addressing the issues. But then again that is always easier than actual doing anything meaningful.
    What meaningful actions should be adopted? I've proposed limiting magazine capacity and 100% background checks. There has yet to be any ideas proposed by those whose tactics is to ridicule any type of further firearm restriction.
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  11. #211
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It's working better than many states that have very lax gun laws.

    Um, NO IT ISN'T! California has the HIGHEST GUN DEATH RATE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!! Higher than New York, Illinois, Arizona, New jersey, and Texas...So do tell how it is working?

    So the answer is to do nothing? This also makes no sense. Also, if we are only going to pass laws based upon a belief of them stopping 100% of the criminal activity, we shouldn't have any laws at all. That is the logic you are using.


    See above response.


    What meaningful actions should be adopted? I've proposed limiting magazine capacity and 100% background checks. There has yet to be any ideas proposed by those whose tactics is to ridicule any type of further firearm restriction.
    You sir are a yellow Journalist propagandist. You convenietly choose to skip portions of my post to suit your needs. Golly, no wonder you get accused of not being much more than a troll on so many topics.

    I offered this as at least a partial answer or at least something to open a dialogue and you completely deleted it when you quoted me...But then again you have done that repeatedly to my posts to not have to answer to my countering your absolute ridiculous blather and non-answers.


    To me one of the issues is the absolutely abysmal failure of the mental health care in this country. The fact that so many mentally ill people are essentially left to fend for themselves with no supervison, no care, no nothing is shameful and we should be both embarrassed and horrified by that. The second part is we need to have mandatory sentences for using guns in the commission of a crime and those that supply guns illegally to felons need to be charges with EXACTLY the same crime as the felon that committed the crime. In other words that woman who supplied the shooter with the guns in New York should be tried for 2 counts of murder and 2 counts of attemted murder, illegal possession of firearms and whatever else they can tack on to her. Maybe then some of this will be slowed. It will NEVER stop because there will always be low lifes that will do anything for anyone for the right price.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-31-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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  12. #212
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Um, NO IT ISN'T! California has the HIGHEST GUN DEATH RATE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!! Higher than New York, Illinois, Arizona, New jersey, and Texas...So do tell how it is working?
    It's working better than what you claim. CA has higher per capita murder by firearm rate than the states you claim save for NY and AZ, which is higher than CA. Your claim that CA's is highest is erroneous. Latest FACTS show the following states with a higher murder by firearm rate than CA:

    Louisiana
    Mississippi
    South Carolina
    Michigan
    Maryland
    Missouri
    Arkansas
    New York
    Pennsylvania
    Georgia
    Tennessee
    North Carolina
    Oklahoma
    Ohio
    Arizona
    Indiana

    None of those states face the population base or demographic diversity as CA. But that is a separate discussion. Many of those states have very lax gun laws. Which proves that easy access to firearms does NOT equate to a lesser possibility of being killed by a firearm. You mentioned TX and IL. They have a lesser incidence of murder by firearm per capita. CA is 17th highest. TX and IL are 23 and 22 respectively on that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You sir are a yellow Journalist propagandist. You convenietly choose to skip portions of my post to suit your needs. Golly, no wonder you get accused of not being much more than a troll on so many topics.
    Because the mental health debate is a separate issue. How do you propose we limit firearms access to the mentally ill? You identified a problem, but not a solution. How do we identify the mentally ill? Do we report a loner at work? Someone who keeps to themselves? Talks to themselves? Should we report a disgruntled employee to the authorities?

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I offered this as at least a partial answer or at least something to open a dialogue and you completely deleted it when you quoted me...But then again you have done that repeatedly to my posts to not have to answer to my countering your absolute ridiculous blather and non-answers.
    Dialogue is not a solution.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-31-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I just saw an interview with Cory Booker. The mayor of Newark, NJ. He was confronted with that scenario and he stated the issue in both Chicago and Newark is the secondary market (aka gun shows). When his police chief started investigating the source of the guns used in the commission of most of the homicides, those guns were coming from states where laws are lax to states where laws are stricter. Some pathways even have names, such as the Iron Pipeline from the Southeast to New England. We know that comprehensive background checks and expanded denial criteria are feasible and effective, because they are in place in many states and have been evaluated. California, for example, requires a background check on all firearm purchases and denies purchases by persons who have committed violent misdemeanors. Yet some 600,000 firearms were sold there in 2011, and the firearms industry continues to consider California a “lucrative” market. The denial policy reduced the risk of violent and firearm-related crime by 23% among those whose purchases were denied. Which I can attest to having purchased a handgun in 2010 and had to wait the requisite time before I could take possession.
    SC, you don't have to be a Navy Seal to be a proficient shooter, or even teach yourself to reload quickly. I'm against banning magazines because it DOES NOTHING! I know all about the Unabomber as well, most people have forgotten all about him. I'm just saying we're lucky more don't think like him. And if you do a simple search, you will find that this kind of thing DOES happen in other countries, even after they pass gun laws, and even when they don't have access to firearms.
    As far as gun laws are concerned, there should be standardized background checks across the nation. I don't neceesarily care for waiting periods, but they could have a pre-check (like being preapproved for a loan) so you have a period of time where your background has been checked and you can go and purchase what ever you want and take it then.
    Mental illness is the bigger piece of the puzzle that has to be solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Yet all of the background checks in the world wouldn't have saved the lives of the two West Webster firefighters - the weapons were purchased legally by someone else, allegedly on the behalf of the shooter.
    I don't know if there are any laws on the books there at this time, but in Nguyen's case, she should be charged as an accessory to murder at the very least. If there's no law to charge in that regard there should be.

  15. #215
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It's working better than what you claim. CA has higher per capita murder by firearm rate than the states you claim save for NY and AZ, which is higher than CA. Your claim that CA's is highest is erroneous. Latest FACTS show the following states with a higher murder by firearm rate than CA:

    Louisiana
    Mississippi
    South Carolina
    Michigan
    Maryland
    Missouri
    Arkansas
    New York
    Pennsylvania
    Georgia
    Tennessee
    North Carolina
    Oklahoma
    Ohio
    Arizona
    Indiana

    None of those states face the population base or demographic diversity as CA. But that is a separate discussion. Many of those states have very lax gun laws. Which proves that easy access to firearms does NOT equate to a lesser possibility of being killed by a firearm. You mentioned TX and IL. They have a lesser incidence of murder by firearm per capita. CA is 17th highest. TX and IL are 23 and 22 respectively on that list.

    The truth is the highest TOTAL number of gun deaths is in California. That is not disputable. You choose to use the statistics in a different manner. My numbers are correct whether it suits your needs or not.


    Because the mental health debate is a separate issue. How do you propose we limit firearms access to the mentally ill? You identified a problem, but not a solution. How do we identify the mentally ill? Do we report a loner at work? Someone who keeps to themselves? Talks to themselves? Should we report a disgruntled employee to the authorities?

    So to use your line of logic in your mindless attempts at debate. Because you don't see a workable solution for the mental illness issue you are suggesting we do nothing, including not even discussing it.


    Dialogue is not a solution.

    Neither is sticking your head in the sand because you don't want to address the mental health issue.
    How about you seriously discuss this instead of just using your left wing anti-gun talking points. All they have EVER done is punish law abiding citizens while not doing a single damn thing to halt or even slow gun violence. Lets seriously discuss punishing criminals that use guns instead of doing feel good nothingness.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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    In all honesty, the best home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with "00" buckshot. The best concealed carry weapon is a compact revolver or semi auto. I've trained extensively in close combat, room clearing urban combat scenarios..and while I am not a navy seal, delta operator, or swat team member, my weapon of choice was a mossberg model 500 12 ga.

    With that being said, there really is no need for large capacity 10+ magazines for either handguns or semi automatic AR style rifles. The argument that we need them to defend against the govt or the army or some paranoid stuff like that, I suggest you do a little history lesson..

    Vietnam: We used helicopters, jets, high altitude bombers, trucks, jeeps, advanced tactics, had logistics experts and we got our rear end handed to us by a bunch of people running around in black
    pajamas carrying supplies down the ho chi minh trail on bicycles...

    Afghanistan: The Russians had their hands full by men on horses living in caves while they used tanks, gunships, special operations units etc.

    Iraq: We lost 9 tanks ( a tank company has 14) to IEDs, that's right, insurgents would tunnel under the road and plant huge propane tanks full of home made explosives. They would light the road on fire to soften it to dig it up and plant bombs..They would disassemble the road where it was cracked, plant the bomb, and then reassemble like a jigsaw puzzle. We had night vision, thermal, infared.. We would kill them and they would not stop.

    Fact I'm trying to make is that You don't need an automatic rifle, 30 round magazines to defend yourself against an intruder, or against the united states military machine for those of you that buy into that conspiracy theory stuff.

    Now, With that being said.......

    Banning any and all weapons is clearly not the answer..

    It has been stated with facts/statistics here that deaths by firearms are far outnumbered by deaths from tobacco, alcohol, vehicles, and cell phones (texting and driving).

    -Why don't we outlaw cars that have over 200HP, outlaw all V8 engines, put a governor on all vehicles that limit the speed to 55 mph.

    -We need to outlaw all motorcycles, because they are too dangerous.
    -We need to make driving and texting a felony if caught, since a car is basically a 3000 pound killing
    machine, being operated irresponsibly.
    -We need to make all tobacco products illegal to use, produce, and consume.
    -We need to make all alcohol products illegal to use, produce, and consume.
    -We need to outlaw all violent movies, violent literature, and violent video games...and limit all TV
    shows to news and non violent programing.
    -We need to outlaw the consumption, production and possession of all animal based protein products
    because we, as humans, are not made to consume animal based protein, which leads to such health
    problems as high cholesterol, heart disease, cancer and obesity.
    -We need to outlaw all fast food chains (see above)
    -We need to outlaw people from having pets, because pittbulls, other animals, snakes etc can attack
    and kill people.
    -We need to outlaw people from living in cold climates because these areas are effected by snow and
    ice, and driving in snow and ice can lead to violent car accidents.
    -We need to outlaw doctors, because doctors kill people every year.
    -We need to outlaw ALL prescription medication, because we do not know the long term side effects
    of these medications and they may cause death.
    -We need to eliminate firefighters because firefighting is a dangerous job that may get people killed or
    hurt....

    Get my point?

    But now, if we did that, how many politician's lives, how many non-gun owning people's lives would be effected? EVERYONE. And we can't inconvenience a politician. It is a proven fact that almost every law maker lives in affluent areas and/or have armed protection, therefore, they really don't need guns.
    But they need cars, food, cell phones, drugs, mistresses, etc.

    I own 1 hunting rifle, and a muzzle loader that I have no projectiles, or powder to use it. I don't have any AR type rifles, I would like to buy a shotgun.

    I go to work, I pay my taxes, I have never been committed, or convicted of ANYTHING, I only have 1 speeding ticket, and if I want to choose to spend 1500 dollars on a rifle just because, then I have that right. I don't get on anyone who has the money to buy a 45,000 dollar truck, 30,000 dollar bass boat, a z28 camaro, dodge viper, you name it..because that is your right, and your preference.

    The real solution(s) here simple:

    1) Provide adequate access to mental health institutions-self explanatory.
    2) Prosecute gun related crimes to the FULLEST extent.
    3) Stop the around the clock news coverage of these savages. Although, adam lanza and the person
    who shot and killed the firefighters are dead, They new that they would be talked about for years
    and years to come. Think Columbine, how long has it been? Yea.
    4) Be parents to your children. Be there for them, be involved in their lives, talk to them, take care
    of them and teach them that life is not fair.
    5) Eliminate home schooling. Kids need to socialize being cooped up in your house.
    6)Stop the entitlements. The govt pays welfare queens to pop out kids, they pop out kids and then
    Don't parent them.


    More to come..wife is bugging me..
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    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Griff,

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with all that you are saying. But, in the land of the giant entitlement, there is a huge thing missing; personal responsibility. Now if we require that, our liberal left and their attempt at a nanny state would have nothing to hold over their voting base. It's much easier to punish all then do the work required to isolate the small segment of the population that causes this type of evil. But then again, you have to single someone out, and by god, don't hurt their feelings
    As far as the mental health aspect, again put the ownness on the individual that wants to purchase, not the rest of society. If there is any past hx or mental illness or abnormal behavior, make that person accountable to prove a period of time with no relapse and if needed, even a 3rd party evaluation. If they don't want to meet the requirements, they are denied.
    If a firearm is used in a crime, mandatory non-negotiable term added on what ever the courts give. Not subject to any bleeding heart judges' bench activism.
    If an individual purchases a firearm for someone other than themselves, mandatory sentence, no plea bargain. Period.
    If that firearm is used in the commission of a crime, that individual gets the same sentence as who ever used it. No plea bargain.
    All these put the consequence where it belongs, the individual. Not the rest of the law abiding society.
    I feel like I am repeating myself here....
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 12-31-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    SC, you don't have to be a Navy Seal to be a proficient shooter, or even teach yourself to reload quickly. I'm against banning magazines because it DOES NOTHING!
    I never said that was the case. I was making a point about proficiency. But you stated the time used in changing magazines was irrelevant when in fact it was that time that bystanders in the Gifford's shooting used to subdue their attacker. You stated had Loughner been proficient there would have been more dead victims. That is a hypothetical. I could easily state hypotheticals that would have led to less carnage that morning. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, his victims would have had to wait over three times longer before making their move. But...had he only had a 10 round magazine, they could have made their move sooner.

    The point is, that reduced magazine capacity is but one of many easily done factors that might start to address the issue of gun violence causing the amount of victims we currently see in these types of shootings. Had a 10 round limit been in effect, it is more than likely that Adam Lanza's mother would have only owned magazines of that capacity since she was a law abiding gun owner and that was the source of her son's weaponry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The truth is the highest TOTAL number of gun deaths is in California. That is not disputable. You choose to use the statistics in a different manner. My numbers are correct whether it suits your needs or not.
    That is absolutely true. But taken in context of the size of the population, my point is more relevant than the aggregate total you are using. Mine is an apples to apples comparison. CA population is almost 50% than TX and double NY. The next two most populated states.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So to use your line of logic in your mindless attempts at debate. Because you don't see a workable solution for the mental illness issue you are suggesting we do nothing, including not even discussing it.
    Didn't say that either. Addressing the issue of mental health is a subset of the problem given that a mentally ill person can occur from one moment to the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Neither is sticking your head in the sand because you don't want to address the mental health issue.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How about you seriously discuss this instead of just using your left wing anti-gun talking points. All they have EVER done is punish law abiding citizens while not doing a single damn thing to halt or even slow gun violence. Lets seriously discuss punishing criminals that use guns instead of doing feel good nothingness.
    Not true. Gun violence has been trending downward for some time.

    I enjoy you calling me a left wing anti-gun liberal. I'm not anti-gun. I've never advocated taking away the right to bear arms.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That is absolutely true. But taken in context of the size of the population, my point is more relevant than the aggregate total you are using. Mine is an apples to apples comparison. CA population is almost 50% than TX and double NY. The next two most populated states.


    Didn't say that either. Addressing the issue of mental health is a subset of the problem given that a mentally ill person can occur from one moment to the next.


    See above response.


    Not true. Gun violence has been trending downward for some time.

    I enjoy you calling me a left wing anti-gun liberal. I'm not anti-gun. I've never advocated taking away the right to bear arms.
    So again, mental illness is blown off by you...Gotcha.

    No you haven't advocated taking away anything you deem fit for gun owners to possess. WOW! Thanks, can I control your hobbies and how you do them too?
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

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