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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Again. You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I never said it would be completely impossible. But the changes I've suggested will slow down the attacker. The clock is ticking giving the teachers time to hide their students like they did in Newtown. The longer the attacker needs to force a door with steel hinges and steel lined dead bolts the more time the good guys have to get there.

    Unless you put steel doors in it is not as much a deterrent as you believe.


    Never been opposed to it. If I used your logic that would be worthless given there was an armed guard at Columbine. At VA Tech, they had an entire police force. Students at VA Tech barricaded the doors in one instance and the gunman went to a lesser obstructed classroom.

    The difference between VA Tech and an elementary school is really so obvious that I am surprised youhave missed it. VA Tech has multiple buildings spread across a large campus. An elementary school is a single building that if we do your security measures could have someone monitoring cameras and dispatching the guard to the trouble spot.


    True. But there are things that can be done to delay and make it more difficult for an attacker to carry out their plan.

    Not disagreeing with this point. But it is not an end all, be all. And definitely will NOT stop a determined attacker. Locked doors didn't stop the gunman at Sandy Hook.
    At least today you are staying on topic.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-02-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Unless you put steel doors in it is not as much a deterrent as you believe.
    Sounds good. Anything that takes time. If the shooter starts shooting the hinges to force the door, those are bullets that won't be used on humans. Couple that with procedures being put in place to block the doorway with all the desks in the room. The stronger teachers can shove their desks into the doorway and maybe put it up on its side. The point is that the more that can be done to slow down access to the potential victims takes up valuable time for the attacker. Giving the good guys more time to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The difference between VA Tech and an elementary school is really so obvious that I am surprised youhave missed it. VA Tech has multiple buildings spread across a large campus. An elementary school is a single building that if we do your security measures could have someone monitoring cameras and dispatching the guard to the trouble spot.
    Just making the point that an armed response is one of several things that can be done to start removing the mindset that educational buildings are easy targets for would-be mass murderers.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not disagreeing with this point. But it is not and end all, be all. And definitely will NOT stop a determined attacker. Locked doors didn't stop the gunman at Sandy Hook.
    See first response.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    At least today you are staying on topic.
    Couple all those with reduced magazine capacity and I believe some serious changes could be made that are beneficial.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-02-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Sounds good. Anything that takes time. If the shooter starts shooting the hinges to force the door, those are bullets that won't be used on humans. And will more time for the good guys to get there.


    Just making the point that an armed response is one of several things that can be done to start removing the mindset that educational buildings are easy targets for would-be mass murderers.


    See first response.


    Couple all those with reduced magazine capacity and I believe some serious changes could be made that are beneficial.
    Remember too, that the VA Tech shooter chained the doors from the inside, preventing law enforcment from entering the building for quite some time. He had all the time in the world to carry out his attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.
    You're right in that many schools already have school resource officers (SRO's) on campus. That would reduce the cost of putting officers on other campuses.

    Just an interesting note on the Pearl, MS school incident- the shooter was stopped and detained by the assistant principal who went to his car and retrieved his .45. It should also be noted he wasn't just some Joe with a gun, he was an Army Reserve commander, so he was trained to handle a weapon, I'm sure.

    One thing I don't support is putting a gun in just anyone's hand in a school. That's asking for an issue. An accidental shooting, the wrong person getting shot, bystanders getting hit, the assailant taking the gun away and using it, or the assailant stealing the gun to initiate rather than brining his own.

    If anyone is going to have a gun in a school, they need to have significant training. With the number of police officers being cut around the country, I think that's a logical choice. Veterans returning from duty (those that aren't suffering from PTSD or other issues themselves) are another logical choice. Tell me a lot of them wouldn't love the schedule teachers work, off during the summer and holidays. Granted, schools might have to refrain from frivolous projects to help pay for them, but I'm sure the athletes can get by for one more year without new uniforms or the administrators without a new desk for a bit longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.
    All our schools have locking classrooms. The teachers have to use a key and go out or reach out into the hall to lock them.

    The lock down preceedure you mentioned is SOP for most schools.

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    A .32 caliber handgun is no where near as effective as a .223/5.56 calber rifle. Or a shotgun. That is a crazy claim to make. Lets hope that the bad guy doesn't wear more than a layer of clothing when he decides to break in if you are defending yourself with a pocket pistol.

    And please leave the age old saying of "racking a shotgun" to scare the bad guys away out of this. If you keep any gun around for personal defense purposes without a round in the chamber you might as well just keep a brick by the night stand. If you are so concerned with NOT killing someone with the first shot, load the first round with birdshot. That will at least let them know you're there and **** them off real good.

    I do not recommend this, and think it is stupid. If you are defending yourself and your family inside your home against an intruder/attacker, shoot to kill. 00 Buckshot (or #1 Buckshot for that matter) is your friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    All our schools have locking classrooms. The teachers have to use a key and go out or reach out into the hall to lock them.
    Having a door locked from the inside (against egress) that required a key to unlock is a clear violation of the code and extremely dangerous. Door are installed fairly cheaply every day that allow the door to be locked with a key from the inside, but will release with a turn of the inside handle/knob, but require a key from the outside. If all the teachers had their own classroom key and the office had a master (and FD Knox Box) it would be another safety step that would slow someone trying to do harm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Having a door locked from the inside (against egress) that required a key to unlock is a clear violation of the code and extremely dangerous.
    Once again, I did not say that. The doors in our local schools have no way of locking or unlocking from inside the classroom.

    The teacher has to use a key to lock the door from the hallway. That takes some time and puts her in harm's way. Some are able to stay inside and reach out the door to lock them, but for most it takes more time than stepping out into the hall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    Once again, I did not say that. The doors in our local schools have no way of locking or unlocking from inside the classroom.

    The teacher has to use a key to lock the door from the hallway. That takes some time and puts her in harm's way. Some are able to stay inside and reach out the door to lock them, but for most it takes more time than stepping out into the hall.
    No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

    To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

    Most schools around here already have a similar setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

    Most schools around here already have a similar setup.
    That's how it was set up at my high school. Door was always locked, and the teacher had a key.
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    To me the truth is that no matter how much we harden the building that alone is no guarantee that it will be enough. Elementary kids go outside for recess, they come to school in the morning, they go home at night...there are multiple opportunities to raise all kinds of havoc while the kids aren't even inside the building.

    Unless you seriously consider an armed presence of some sort on school grounds whenever children are present you are an ostrich with your head buried in the sand. It may not be the most appealing option to some of you but it is realistic.
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    If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?
    And there in lies the sad truth of this whole issue...no matter what you do there will NEVER be a 100% guarantee of safety for any school, anywhere, at any time. Whether the assailant uses a gun, a car, a Molotov cocktail, a machete, or a baseball bat, if they want to commit this crime they will find a way. All we can hope is to deter most attackers...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    That's how it was set up at my high school. Door was always locked, and the teacher had a key.
    I actually find it a shame it's gotten to that level. When I was in school, the classroom doors were typically wide-open, as were the doors into the school. It was nothing to see a parent roaming the halls, without a visitor pass. Nearly every guy carried a pocket knife and it was no big deal.

    Hell, during hunting season we had enough guns in the cars in the parking lots to arm a couple platoons. We never even had to lock the doors to those vehicles. No one messed with someone else's stuff.

    And this wasn't that long ago- my 20 year reunion is this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?
    If they are doing that much planning, is some gun ban going to stop them from getting a gun to do the job?

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    Am I the only one that finds it ironic the the person that started this thread is the only one that would openly admit he would not have done anything to save any of them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The victims at the Giffords shooting tackled Loughner while he was reloading. Same with the students who were being shot by Kip Kinkel.

    Kip was only a 15 year old, and probably not very proficient, and was dyslexic. He was reloading a .22 Ruger, which probably was a lot slower to reload. If he'd been using the 9mm Glock, the kids who disarmed him probably would not have had time to do what they did.

    I can't explain the reactions of the students at Columbine. Human behavior isn't predictable.

    Columbine was planned out extensively, and they were in areas that were wide open, providing little cover.

    Once again you are falling into the trap of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Time is an enemy to an attacker in this scenario. The more time they are dealing with hardened entry points is more time for the good guys to get there and deal with them.

    True, but then you'd have to do a check of everyone coming through the doors. At somepoint, Employees and students usually have to be let inside of the building at some point in the school day.
    And a shooter does not have to be perfect, they just have to have basic proficiency to be lethal.

    Should we adopt the Israeli model?
    Specifically WHAT Israeli model are you referring too? They do have some good ones. We should definitely adopt their model for airport security, ours sucks unless terrrorist groups start recruiting handicapped children and grandma's with medical conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Kip was only a 15 year old, and probably not very proficient, and was dyslexic. He was reloading a .22 Ruger, which probably was a lot slower to reload. If he'd been using the 9mm Glock, the kids who disarmed him probably would not have had time to do what they did.
    The kids that tackled him might have been able to do that as he attempted to replace his 10 round magazine and dropped the second one on the ground. Since so many of you like to deal in hypotheticals.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Columbine was planned out extensively, and they were in areas that were wide open, providing little cover.
    Your point? There was an armed security guard on campus.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    True, but then you'd have to do a check of everyone coming through the doors. At somepoint, Employees and students usually have to be let inside of the building at some point in the school day.
    And a shooter does not have to be perfect, they just have to have basic proficiency to be lethal.
    The idea is to delay the shooter as much as possible giving responders (whether they be on campus or the local cops) time to get there. With the idea of minimizing the amount of killing that could be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Specifically WHAT Israeli model are you referring too? They do have some good ones. We should definitely adopt their model for airport security, ours sucks unless terrrorist groups start recruiting handicapped children and grandma's with medical conditions.
    I wasn't the one proposing the Israeli model. You'll have to ask one of those who liked their approach to gun ownership in their country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Your point? There was an armed security guard on campus.
    From what I've read, the shooting had already started by the time the security guard was notified. He was outside eating his lunch when a custodian requested his assistance. After he was notified, he had to drive around the campus to where the shooting was occurring, arriving 5 minutes after the intital shot (he wasn't notified until 3 minutes into it). It should be noted he was 60 yards away and they were able to duck back into the building. At the same time, at least two people escaped while he exchanged fire with them.

    He also engaged the Klebold and Harris as they fired at him through windows for several minutes. How many escaped at that point? During that time he covered and escorted 15 students out of the line of fire of the pair.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The idea is to delay the shooter as much as possible giving responders (whether they be on campus or the local cops) time to get there. With the idea of minimizing the amount of killing that could be done.
    Seems to me that Deputy Gardner did just that. His engagement with Klebold and Harris most certainly caused a distraction and saved lives. Had he not been there, there's no telling how many more would have died.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    From what I've read, the shooting had already started by the time the security guard was notified. He was outside eating his lunch when a custodian requested his assistance. After he was notified, he had to drive around the campus to where the shooting was occurring, arriving 5 minutes after the intital shot (he wasn't notified until 3 minutes into it). It should be noted he was 60 yards away and they were able to duck back into the building. At the same time, at least two people escaped while he exchanged fire with them.

    He also engaged the Klebold and Harris as they fired at him through windows for several minutes. How many escaped at that point? During that time he covered and escorted 15 students out of the line of fire of the pair.

    Seems to me that Deputy Gardner did just that. His engagement with Klebold and Harris most certainly caused a distraction and saved lives. Had he not been there, there's no telling how many more would have died.
    Agreed. His actions were very helpful that day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

    To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

    Most schools around here already have a similar setup.
    Leaving them locked probably works pretty well for high schools. However, there is a lot of traffic in and out of classrooms in elementary schools. In addition to what seems to be constant restroom emergencies, kids are pulled out of classes for specialized reading intervention, speech, etc. The classroom teacher would be spending a lot of time opening the door for kids.

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    The truth about armed security is, just like firefighters when we are needed, in most places there will never be enough. To be serious about armed security you would need at a minimum 4 personnel in any school building, on on each side of the building so that no quadrant of the building was ever left unprotected. Those guards should be backed by someone monitoring cameras of EVERY entrance to the building so that if trouble arises a response could be initiated. The main reason that this will NEVER happen...COST. The odds of most schools ever having a violent attack like what happened in Sandy Hook make it not economically sound for school boards to spend money to harden schools or to put armed security in place.

    So then what is the answer? There isn't one, at least not with the current emotionally charged atmosphere and that is why the knee jerk BS of punishing law abiding citizens for once again OBEYING the law is not going down so smoothly this time. Punish criminals who use guns with no ability to plea bargain. Take a SERIOUS look at the mental health crisis in this country and stop pretending that it isn't a serious problem. Make it easier to put people under a 72 hour psychiatric hold if they show irratic or psychotic, violent behavior. Actually do evaluations instead of drugging people, giving them meds and DUMPING them back into society again so they can get in trouble again. ANSWERS that may actually have an impact, instead of feel good do nothing nonsense.

    I know that this is not what the anti-gun, or anti-certain types of guns, or anti-high capacity magazine, crowd wants to hear. Too bad, their solutions will do nothing, fix nothing, and the same issues will arise over and over and over until someone goes "Hey, take away all the guns and the problem will go away." Nice try dumb azz, once again the criminals will of course line up willingly to turn in their guns for a McDonald's gift certificate. YEAH, sure they will. I am just amazed at he utter naivety of this crowd...Seriously, how does restricting the rights of law abiding citizens solve a crime and mental health problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

    To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

    Most schools around here already have a similar setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    Leaving them locked probably works pretty well for high schools. However, there is a lot of traffic in and out of classrooms in elementary schools. In addition to what seems to be constant restroom emergencies, kids are pulled out of classes for specialized reading intervention, speech, etc. The classroom teacher would be spending a lot of time opening the door for kids.
    Nothing personal. This is the least of the issue. The technology exists to lock the doors from the inside and be able to gain access from the authorized individuals if those inside lock the door.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I know that this is not what the anti-gun, or anti-certain types of guns, or anti-high capacity magazine, crowd wants to hear. Too bad, their solutions will do nothing, fix nothing, and the same issues will arise over and over and over until someone goes "Hey, take away all the guns and the problem will go away." Nice try dumb azz, once again the criminals will of course line up willingly to turn in their guns for a McDonald's gift certificate. YEAH, sure they will. I am just amazed at he utter naivety of this crowd...Seriously, how does restricting the rights of law abiding citizens solve a crime and mental health problem?
    Other countries have managed to allow its citizens the right to bear arms while placing restrictions. The US is unique seems to be unique in its occurrence of frequent mass shootings at educational institutions. Saying that more regulations is pointless is an equally misguided statement as saying we should all be armed all the time.
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