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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

  1. #221
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    If Loughner had been standing 15 yards away, out of the crowd, no one would have had time to get to him - he'd have had plenty of time to swap magazines and start plugging away again.

    The shooter in West Webster was a fair distance from his targets. He could have been using a bolt action 30-06 and accomplished the same thing. In fact, he had six hits amongst his four targets. Well under the capacity of even my late father's old JC Higgins .22 cal semi-auto rifle, which didn't have a clip at all.

    As was pointed out somewhere - some states restrict the number of shells that can be carried in some guns when hunting.

    I'm all for gun rights, too. But I have to agree that some guns should be downright hard to obtain, if not impossible. Grandpa's old .32 cal revolver (which has been in the bottom dresser drawer for years) will stop an intruder just as effectively as an "assault rifle." And "racking" a shotgun will make pretty much anyone's hair stand on end, especially if it's in the dark...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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  2. #222
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So again, mental illness is blown off by you...Gotcha.
    I've addressed my thoughts on this several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No you haven't advocated taking away anything you deem fit for gun owners to possess. WOW! Thanks, can I control your hobbies and how you do them too?
    So you absolutely need a magazine capacity larger than 10 rounds to enjoy your hobby? This makes no sense. I can cite numerous restrictions on the hobbies of others. Cars and airplanes readily come to mind.
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  3. #223
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    If Loughner had been standing 15 yards away, out of the crowd, no one would have had time to get to him - he'd have had plenty of time to swap magazines and start plugging away again.
    Or he might have missed them to the point where they would have had the ability to get away from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    The shooter in West Webster was a fair distance from his targets. He could have been using a bolt action 30-06 and accomplished the same thing. In fact, he had six hits amongst his four targets. Well under the capacity of even my late father's old JC Higgins .22 cal semi-auto rifle, which didn't have a clip at all.
    What's your point? I can put out what-if scenarios as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    As was pointed out somewhere - some states restrict the number of shells that can be carried in some guns when hunting.
    Agreed. Why is more necessary for target shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    I'm all for gun rights, too. But I have to agree that some guns should be downright hard to obtain, if not impossible. Grandpa's old .32 cal revolver (which has been in the bottom dresser drawer for years) will stop an intruder just as effectively as an "assault rifle." And "racking" a shotgun will make pretty much anyone's hair stand on end, especially if it's in the dark...
    Agreed.
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  4. #224
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've addressed my thoughts on this several times.

    Sure that you believe nothing can be done...nice work.


    So you absolutely need a magazine capacity larger than 10 rounds to enjoy your hobby? This makes no sense. I can cite numerous restrictions on the hobbies of others. Cars and airplanes readily come to mind.

    And my answer is life isn't only need, because if it was most houses would be empty shells with a gass mat and a couple of blankets. Sometimes it is about want. It is that simple.
    Awaiting more non-answers...
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  5. #225
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And my answer is life isn't only need, because if it was most houses would be empty shells with a gass mat and a couple of blankets. Sometimes it is about want. It is that simple.
    This statement makes no sense. Which houses have caused the violent deaths of 20 six year olds at one time? Should we as a society allow anything if one person "wants" it? Regardless of the impact to others?

    Should I be allowed to drive my car up and down the street in front of your house at 100 mph because it's a hobby I enjoy and want to do it?

    I also believe the issue of mental health should be addressed. I'm sure there are things that can also be done to help in reducing their access to firearms.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-31-2012 at 10:11 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #226
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Posted by SC
    Dialogue is not a solution.
    Dialogue may not be a solution, but it is the beginning of one....
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  7. #227
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This statement makes no sense. Which houses have caused the violent deaths of 20 six year olds at one time? Should we as a society allow anything if one person "wants" it? Regardless of the impact to others?

    Talk about making no sense. Did you learn to debate in off topic nonsense school?

    Clearly if what I have to do my activity with, and what activity I am doing is legal, such as target shooting with a 30 round magazine, there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly, you don't have to like it. There are many activities that others participate in that are perfectly legal that annoy the begeezus out of me and clearly have been proven to be dangerous. The difference is as long as their activity is legal I would not expect them to stop that activity.


    Should I be allowed to drive my car up and down the street in front of your house at 100 mph because it's a hobby I enjoy and want to do it?

    Stupid analogy once again. Driving up and down the street at 100mph is illegal. Owning a 30 round magazine for legal purposes is not. Truth is you have proven you have nothing left because you keep dancing off into just plain stupid diversions.

    I also believe the issue of mental health should be addressed. I'm sure there are things that can also be done to help in reducing their access to firearms.

    I am sure there are too. Like stop window dressing mental health diagnosis and treatment and get serious about confining people with violent tendacies. The Sandy Hook shppter was known to have issues so why wasn't he institutionalized to get the help he needed?
    The guns I own are under lock and key with the key kept distant from the gun safe. No one will get them unless they bring tools to destroy my gun safe. Yeah, good luck with that.
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  8. #228
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about this issue. One thing that would give teachers a fighting chance (IMO) is the ability to lock the door from the inside. A dead bolt system that can flipped with a lever on the inside and keypad entry on the outside. With a solid door that would give the teacher the ability to shelter their students in place against an intruder.

    Cheaper than an armed security guard. Better than nothing.

    Comments?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 01:57 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #229
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Talk about making no sense. Did you learn to debate in off topic nonsense school?
    No. That zooming sound you heard was the point going past you.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Clearly if what I have to do my activity with, and what activity I am doing is legal, such as target shooting with a 30 round magazine, there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly, you don't have to like it. There are many activities that others participate in that are perfectly legal that annoy the begeezus out of me and clearly have been proven to be dangerous. The difference is as long as their activity is legal I would not expect them to stop that activity.
    I don't have to stand for someone else's wants if that involves giving others the ability to kill a lot of people in a short period of time. I can unequivocally state that people in other countries enjoy firearms and shooting without 30 round magazines. LIke Israel. A nation you earlier believed we should emulate.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Stupid analogy once again. Driving up and down the street at 100mph is illegal. Owning a 30 round magazine for legal purposes is not. Truth is you have proven you have nothing left because you keep dancing off into just plain stupid diversions.
    It is illegal because it is dangerous to others. Which is why I would have no problem applying the same logic to owning magazines larger than 10 rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am sure there are too. Like stop window dressing mental health diagnosis and treatment and get serious about confining people with violent tendacies. The Sandy Hook shppter was known to have issues so why wasn't he institutionalized to get the help he needed?
    Apparently his mother was trying to get him institutionalized and might have been a reason for his reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The guns I own are under lock and key with the key kept distant from the gun safe. No one will get them unless they bring tools to destroy my gun safe. Yeah, good luck with that.
    Same here. What's your point?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've been thinking about this issue. One thing that would give teachers a fighting chance (IMO) is the ability to lock the door from the inside. A dead bolt system that can flipped with a lever on the inside and keypad entry on the outside. With a solid door that would give the teacher the ability to shelter their students in place against an intruder.

    Cheaper than an armed security guard. Better than nothing.

    Comments?
    I currently work at a call center and we use magnetic locks to access actual work areas. If we used ballistic glass, and each door was locked and only the teacher had the key to their doors and 1 master key for the principle.. While still employing camera footage and the ability to lock down the building like a prison would help. It is what it is.... Schools are soft targets of opportunity, no weapons no one with training etc.

  11. #231
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I currently work at a call center and we use magnetic locks to access actual work areas. If we used ballistic glass, and each door was locked and only the teacher had the key to their doors and 1 master key for the principle.. While still employing camera footage and the ability to lock down the building like a prison would help. It is what it is.... Schools are soft targets of opportunity, no weapons no one with training etc.
    Sad that we have to think in these terms now. But once upon a time we didn't need reinforced doors on airplanes either.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #232
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.

    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I never said that was the case. I was making a point about proficiency. But you stated the time used in changing magazines was irrelevant when in fact it was that time that bystanders in the Gifford's shooting used to subdue their attacker. You stated had Loughner been proficient there would have been more dead victims. That is a hypothetical. I could easily state hypotheticals that would have led to less carnage that morning. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, his victims would have had to wait over three times longer before making their move. But...had he only had a 10 round magazine, they could have made their move sooner.

    The point is, that reduced magazine capacity is but one of many easily done factors that might start to address the issue of gun violence causing the amount of victims we currently see in these types of shootings. Had a 10 round limit been in effect, it is more than likely that Adam Lanza's mother would have only owned magazines of that capacity since she was a law abiding gun owner and that was the source of her son's weaponry.
    The most fired weapon at Columbine was a carbine with a 10 round magazine. That right there totally disproves your arguement, and any other for 10 round magazines. Not to mention that you could just to the "Matrix" method and just strap your self up with a bunch of cheap handguns and blaze away. Heck, a motivated shooter can just about speed load a shotgun with a five round magazine for quite some time. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, he probably wouldn't have had a very good percentage rate of hitting people.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've addressed my thoughts on this several times.


    So you absolutely need a magazine capacity larger than 10 rounds to enjoy your hobby? This makes no sense. I can cite numerous restrictions on the hobbies of others. Cars and airplanes readily come to mind.
    You're obviously stuck on the 10 round magazine issue, which won't do a damn thing. Evidently you need something to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Hate to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen.

    How about we work on keeping criminals and crazies away from guns, and leave the law abiding gun owners alone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.

    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
    And let's not forget, the outside of a school is always vunderable. That's what happend in the San Francisco school shooting.

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    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.
    The answer is easy enough. A simple key lock on the inside door, or a pass card type key. It still doesn't eliminate the fact that a determined gunman can shoot the latch off the door.
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  18. #238
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Background checks for the person that purchases the guns.

    Did the mass murderer at Newtown purchase the guns he used?
    Did the murderer in Webster NY purchase the guns he used?

    So much for background checks.

    You guys talk about "feel good" restrictions....there is big one right there. It quite obviously did nothing in these 2 cases...and many more that used stolen weapons.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #239
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You will never stop incidents in schools simply by hardening the school building. Why? Because the building is open for public events like sports, and music programs like Christmas programs. What are we going to do? Install metal detectors too? Oh wait, if we do that we still need armed guards.
    I agree. My idea is there is at least something a teacher could do. BigGriff detailed a system that would work that addresses those issues. The idea is to make it more difficult for a shooter to find targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The idea of hardening school buildings is ludicrous. Put as many hardened doors in as you want and you have solved about 25% of the problem because most schools are very window heavy and unless you replace them ALL with security type glass the entry weakness stll exists. Even hardening classroom doors may slow someone down but it wouldn't stop a determined assailant. A few well place shots and the door is destroyed and in they go. All of these ideas do not replace the need for security guards in the school, or a few limited staff members being armed to ensure that anyone entering the building will be stopped as quickly as possible.
    I disagree. Hardened doors will discourage most assailants given they are looking for quick easy prey. If they encounter a barrier that doesn't allow that I believe they would go to the next room. I doubt they are going to spend time trying to get into rooms that are deadbolted. As far as the window issue is concerned. The second thing the teacher does after dead bolting the door is draw the blinds. That effectively blinds the shooter. While blinds aren't bulletproof it helps to frustrate the shooter.

    These are not military spec ops troops. You are giving them way too much credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The answer is easy enough. A simple key lock on the inside door, or a pass card type key. It still doesn't eliminate the fact that a determined gunman can shoot the latch off the door.
    A solid core door with hardened hinges should stand up to most of the weapons that are used by these types. Delaying the gunman gives the victims a way to fight back and hopefully allows the cavalry time to get on scene.

    Interesting that you don't want to do anything at all to delay and deflect a shooter's attention. I would prefer schools not be turned into armed camps. An armed guard would be helped by such a system in place knowing that a shooter is being frustrated by gaining entry to classrooms.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 07:16 PM.
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  20. #240
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    The most fired weapon at Columbine was a carbine with a 10 round magazine. That right there totally disproves your arguement, and any other for 10 round magazines. Not to mention that you could just to the "Matrix" method and just strap your self up with a bunch of cheap handguns and blaze away. Heck, a motivated shooter can just about speed load a shotgun with a five round magazine for quite some time. Had Loughner been using a 100 round magazine, he probably wouldn't have had a very good percentage rate of hitting people.
    The victims at the Giffords shooting tackled Loughner while he was reloading. Same with the students who were being shot by Kip Kinkel. I can't explain the reactions of the students at Columbine. Human behavior isn't predictable. Once again you are falling into the trap of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Time is an enemy to an attacker in this scenario. The more time they are dealing with hardened entry points is more time for the good guys to get there and deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    You're obviously stuck on the 10 round magazine issue, which won't do a damn thing. Evidently you need something to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Hate to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen.

    How about we work on keeping criminals and crazies away from guns, and leave the law abiding gun owners alone?
    Should we adopt the Israeli model?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-01-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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