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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    They don't use doors with inside locks in schools because kids can lock themselves in the rooms away from teachers. You could use a high deadbolt for elementary schools, but not for middle or high schoolers.
    Every school I've been in on an inspection or where my wife has worked has had locks on the classroom side. The hall side has a keyhole. This is utilized on lockdowns so that the teachers (or whoever) can lock the room and make it harder for an intruder to enter. I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Should we adopt the Israeli model?
    What is wrong with the security guard model? The vast majority of these shooters are looking for soft targets. Armed security prevents this.

    In the case of Lanza, had there been an armed guard at the school, how long would it have taken to respond to the entrance that Lanza broke into? Lanza may have managed killed some in the office, but likely would have been stopped prior to killing as many as he did, if he had even attempted it in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Every school I've been in on an inspection or where my wife has worked has had locks on the classroom side. The hall side has a keyhole. This is utilized on lockdowns so that the teachers (or whoever) can lock the room and make it harder for an intruder to enter. I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I agree. My idea is there is at least something a teacher could do. BigGriff detailed a system that would work that addresses those issues. The idea is to make it more difficult for a shooter to find targets.

    It makes it difficult, not impossible. A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.


    I disagree. Hardened doors will discourage most assailants given they are looking for quick easy prey. If they encounter a barrier that doesn't allow that I believe they would go to the next room. I doubt they are going to spend time trying to get into rooms that are deadbolted. As far as the window issue is concerned. The second thing the teacher does after dead bolting the door is draw the blinds. That effectively blinds the shooter. While blinds aren't bulletproof it helps to frustrate the shooter.

    A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.

    Draw the blinds? Really? That will somehow make a room that was moments ago full of children a non-target? Sorry not buying that. If a determined shooter wants in and they can't get in the door windows will be the next obvious choice of entry whether you "high security" blinds are closed or not.



    These are not military spec ops troops. You are giving them way too much credit.

    And you aren't giving them enough. Look at the planning and logistics that go into these shootings. They are well aware they may not survive and they don't care and that is why they PLAN how to do as much damage as quickly as they can.


    A solid core door with hardened hinges should stand up to most of the weapons that are used by these types. Delaying the gunman gives the victims a way to fight back and hopefully allows the cavalry time to get on scene.

    A few well placed rounds on the latching mechanism or the hinges will open that door easily. Frankly you are delusional if you believe schools will replace all their interior doors with solid core doors.

    Interesting that you don't want to do anything at all to delay and deflect a shooter's attention. I would prefer schools not be turned into armed camps. An armed guard would be helped by such a system in place knowing that a shooter is being frustrated by gaining entry to classrooms.

    Not true. The schools my kids have gone to have been locked during the day for well over 10 years. That doesn't change the fact that they have glass panels next to them that can be easily broken to allow manipulating the interior latch to open the door. It also doesn't eliminate the fact that all the schools except the elementary school have anywhere between 4 and 8 windows in each classroom.

    So have you changed your mind and now you are supporting having an armed guard at schools?
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It makes it difficult, not impossible. A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon

    A couple of shots from a igh powered rifle or a shotgun will get the door open. If all the doors are locked eventually the gunman will start forcing doors with their weapon.

    Draw the blinds? Really? That will somehow make a room that was moments ago full of children a non-target? Sorry not buying that. If a determined shooter wants in and they can't get in the door windows will be the next obvious choice of entry whether you "high security" blinds are closed or not.

    And you aren't giving them enough. Look at the planning and logistics that go into these shootings. They are well aware they may not survive and they don't care and that is why they PLAN how to do as much damage as quickly as they can.

    Not true. The schools my kids have gone to have been locked during the day for well over 10 years. That doesn't change the fact that they have glass panels next to them that can be easily broken to allow manipulating the interior latch to open the door. It also doesn't eliminate the fact that all the schools except the elementary school have anywhere between 4 and 8 windows in each classroom.
    Again. You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I never said it would be completely impossible. But the changes I've suggested will slow down the attacker. The clock is ticking giving the teachers time to hide their students like they did in Newtown. The longer the attacker needs to force a door with steel hinges and steel lined dead bolts the more time the good guys have to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So have you changed your mind and now you are supporting having an armed guard at schools?
    Never been opposed to it. If I used your logic that would be worthless given there was an armed guard at Columbine. At VA Tech, they had an entire police force. Students at VA Tech barricaded the doors in one instance and the gunman went to a lesser obstructed classroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
    True. But there are things that can be done to delay and make it more difficult for an attacker to carry out their plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
    At the high school I attended all the doors locked automatically and the teacher would buzz you in. Depending on the situation the students could also exit into what was called the core which all the classrooms on each section surrounded. All of the doors into the core had bullet resistant glass and a layer of steel plate inside the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is simply no way to 100% guarantee that you can or will stop a determined shooter from getting into a school.
    You're 100% right, however, we all know that gun bans are not the answer, we also know that mental health issues will never be taken seriously ever again.. So we need to focus on the school infastructure, and how we handle criminals... We can't stop people from driving like idiots so we make cars "safer" sort of thing, sure people still die in cars but would it be worse if the medical treatment, extrication, and safety
    Advancements were not created? Me thinks yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure there is a system available that can address fire code and ADA issues while accomplishing the task of delaying would be attackers.
    I'm sure there are. I was more concerned with the guy I replied to trying to say that school doors lock from the hall side rather than the classroom side and suggesting locks that would violate the codes and ADA requirements.

    Any lock that doesn't unlock easily from the exterior of the classroom would slow a would-be assailant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I've never heard of this BS of not having interior locks to keep kids from entering. If the teacher has a key to her room, she unlocks it and goes in.
    I didn't say that. I said that many schools don't have interior locks because the kids can lock themselves in the room and keep the teachers from entering. Works great for fights and stuff, which typically last less than a minute. You remember those days in high school, right?

    You also have to keep in mind there are fire code and ADA requirements when you're talking about door locks. Putting them out of reach of a child is a violation of both. Deadbolts would be a violation, as well.
    IIRC, our state codes are why our schools don't have push button locks on the inside, according to one of our principals. I know our administrators and school board have discussed putting interior access door locks on all our classrooms, but I don't know the outcome of those discussions. I haven't tried to find the codes for myself.

    BTW, I'm not stirring any arguments or picking any sides here. I'm just stating what the situation is at our local schools. I'm sure that the types of doors, locks, and codes vary from school to school and state to state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    I didn't say that. I said that many schools don't have interior locks because the kids can lock themselves in the room and keep the teachers from entering. Works great for fights and stuff, which typically last less than a minute. You remember those days in high school, right?

    I must have read what you were saying wrong, then. We just went off-campus for our fights, wasn't any sense doing it at school.

    IIRC, our state codes are why our schools don't have push button locks on the inside, according to one of our principals. I know our administrators and school board have discussed putting interior access door locks on all our classrooms, but I don't know the outcome of those discussions. I haven't tried to find the codes for myself.

    BTW, I'm not stirring any arguments or picking any sides here. I'm just stating what the situation is at our local schools. I'm sure that the types of doors, locks, and codes vary from school to school and state to state.
    To meet ADA or any code I'm familiar with, as long as the lock can be disengaged the the door opened in a single motion with a closed fist, it should comply with both. All this takes is a long-handled door latch with a push-button lock that disengages when the handle is operated. In the hallways they'll typically utilize panic hardware, which could be used in a classroom, but would be a bit more expensive.
    RFDACM02 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Again. You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I never said it would be completely impossible. But the changes I've suggested will slow down the attacker. The clock is ticking giving the teachers time to hide their students like they did in Newtown. The longer the attacker needs to force a door with steel hinges and steel lined dead bolts the more time the good guys have to get there.

    Unless you put steel doors in it is not as much a deterrent as you believe.


    Never been opposed to it. If I used your logic that would be worthless given there was an armed guard at Columbine. At VA Tech, they had an entire police force. Students at VA Tech barricaded the doors in one instance and the gunman went to a lesser obstructed classroom.

    The difference between VA Tech and an elementary school is really so obvious that I am surprised youhave missed it. VA Tech has multiple buildings spread across a large campus. An elementary school is a single building that if we do your security measures could have someone monitoring cameras and dispatching the guard to the trouble spot.


    True. But there are things that can be done to delay and make it more difficult for an attacker to carry out their plan.

    Not disagreeing with this point. But it is not an end all, be all. And definitely will NOT stop a determined attacker. Locked doors didn't stop the gunman at Sandy Hook.
    At least today you are staying on topic.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-01-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Unless you put steel doors in it is not as much a deterrent as you believe.
    Sounds good. Anything that takes time. If the shooter starts shooting the hinges to force the door, those are bullets that won't be used on humans. Couple that with procedures being put in place to block the doorway with all the desks in the room. The stronger teachers can shove their desks into the doorway and maybe put it up on its side. The point is that the more that can be done to slow down access to the potential victims takes up valuable time for the attacker. Giving the good guys more time to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The difference between VA Tech and an elementary school is really so obvious that I am surprised youhave missed it. VA Tech has multiple buildings spread across a large campus. An elementary school is a single building that if we do your security measures could have someone monitoring cameras and dispatching the guard to the trouble spot.
    Just making the point that an armed response is one of several things that can be done to start removing the mindset that educational buildings are easy targets for would-be mass murderers.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not disagreeing with this point. But it is not and end all, be all. And definitely will NOT stop a determined attacker. Locked doors didn't stop the gunman at Sandy Hook.
    See first response.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    At least today you are staying on topic.
    Couple all those with reduced magazine capacity and I believe some serious changes could be made that are beneficial.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-02-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Sounds good. Anything that takes time. If the shooter starts shooting the hinges to force the door, those are bullets that won't be used on humans. And will more time for the good guys to get there.


    Just making the point that an armed response is one of several things that can be done to start removing the mindset that educational buildings are easy targets for would-be mass murderers.


    See first response.


    Couple all those with reduced magazine capacity and I believe some serious changes could be made that are beneficial.
    Remember too, that the VA Tech shooter chained the doors from the inside, preventing law enforcment from entering the building for quite some time. He had all the time in the world to carry out his attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.
    You're right in that many schools already have school resource officers (SRO's) on campus. That would reduce the cost of putting officers on other campuses.

    Just an interesting note on the Pearl, MS school incident- the shooter was stopped and detained by the assistant principal who went to his car and retrieved his .45. It should also be noted he wasn't just some Joe with a gun, he was an Army Reserve commander, so he was trained to handle a weapon, I'm sure.

    One thing I don't support is putting a gun in just anyone's hand in a school. That's asking for an issue. An accidental shooting, the wrong person getting shot, bystanders getting hit, the assailant taking the gun away and using it, or the assailant stealing the gun to initiate rather than brining his own.

    If anyone is going to have a gun in a school, they need to have significant training. With the number of police officers being cut around the country, I think that's a logical choice. Veterans returning from duty (those that aren't suffering from PTSD or other issues themselves) are another logical choice. Tell me a lot of them wouldn't love the schedule teachers work, off during the summer and holidays. Granted, schools might have to refrain from frivolous projects to help pay for them, but I'm sure the athletes can get by for one more year without new uniforms or the administrators without a new desk for a bit longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    One thing no one has mentioned is that many schools, primarily high schools, already have an armed police officer on campus most of the day. The local high schools here do, the high school I attended over a decade ago did as well. Its not a new idea.

    As for the door lock issues, I've never been in a school building that did not have locks on the classroom doors. Teachers are normally responsible for locking their door anytime they are not in the classroom.

    I was in high school when the Pearl, MS shooting happened. Our school implented a policy to deal with active shooters, that involved all teachers locking their classroom doors and moving all students to the wall where they could not be seen from the door. Obviously any shooter fully intent on gaining access, with enough time, will be able to get through. The point to the lockdown procedure is to slow down their attack to give law enforcment to respond.
    All our schools have locking classrooms. The teachers have to use a key and go out or reach out into the hall to lock them.

    The lock down preceedure you mentioned is SOP for most schools.

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    A .32 caliber handgun is no where near as effective as a .223/5.56 calber rifle. Or a shotgun. That is a crazy claim to make. Lets hope that the bad guy doesn't wear more than a layer of clothing when he decides to break in if you are defending yourself with a pocket pistol.

    And please leave the age old saying of "racking a shotgun" to scare the bad guys away out of this. If you keep any gun around for personal defense purposes without a round in the chamber you might as well just keep a brick by the night stand. If you are so concerned with NOT killing someone with the first shot, load the first round with birdshot. That will at least let them know you're there and **** them off real good.

    I do not recommend this, and think it is stupid. If you are defending yourself and your family inside your home against an intruder/attacker, shoot to kill. 00 Buckshot (or #1 Buckshot for that matter) is your friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    All our schools have locking classrooms. The teachers have to use a key and go out or reach out into the hall to lock them.
    Having a door locked from the inside (against egress) that required a key to unlock is a clear violation of the code and extremely dangerous. Door are installed fairly cheaply every day that allow the door to be locked with a key from the inside, but will release with a turn of the inside handle/knob, but require a key from the outside. If all the teachers had their own classroom key and the office had a master (and FD Knox Box) it would be another safety step that would slow someone trying to do harm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Having a door locked from the inside (against egress) that required a key to unlock is a clear violation of the code and extremely dangerous.
    Once again, I did not say that. The doors in our local schools have no way of locking or unlocking from inside the classroom.

    The teacher has to use a key to lock the door from the hallway. That takes some time and puts her in harm's way. Some are able to stay inside and reach out the door to lock them, but for most it takes more time than stepping out into the hall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    Once again, I did not say that. The doors in our local schools have no way of locking or unlocking from inside the classroom.

    The teacher has to use a key to lock the door from the hallway. That takes some time and puts her in harm's way. Some are able to stay inside and reach out the door to lock them, but for most it takes more time than stepping out into the hall.
    No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

    To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

    Most schools around here already have a similar setup.

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