18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by Catch22

To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

Most schools around here already have a similar setup.

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That's how it was set up at my high school. Door was always locked, and the teacher had a key.

To me the truth is that no matter how much we harden the building that alone is no guarantee that it will be enough. Elementary kids go outside for recess, they come to school in the morning, they go home at night...there are multiple opportunities to raise all kinds of havoc while the kids aren't even inside the building.

Unless you seriously consider an armed presence of some sort on school grounds whenever children are present you are an ostrich with your head buried in the sand. It may not be the most appealing option to some of you but it is realistic.

If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?

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Originally Posted by Bones42

If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?

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And there in lies the sad truth of this whole issue...no matter what you do there will NEVER be a 100% guarantee of safety for any school, anywhere, at any time. Whether the assailant uses a gun, a car, a Molotov cocktail, a machete, or a baseball bat, if they want to commit this crime they will find a way. All we can hope is to deter most attackers...

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Originally Posted by Chenzo

That's how it was set up at my high school. Door was always locked, and the teacher had a key.

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I actually find it a shame it's gotten to that level. When I was in school, the classroom doors were typically wide-open, as were the doors into the school. It was nothing to see a parent roaming the halls, without a visitor pass. Nearly every guy carried a pocket knife and it was no big deal.

Hell, during hunting season we had enough guns in the cars in the parking lots to arm a couple platoons. We never even had to lock the doors to those vehicles. No one messed with someone else's stuff.

And this wasn't that long ago- my 20 year reunion is this year.

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Originally Posted by Bones42

If they are able to plan this whole attack and access to secured buildings....aren't they able to plan how to disable the armed security? Wouldn't that be their first target?

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If they are doing that much planning, is some gun ban going to stop them from getting a gun to do the job?

Am I the only one that finds it ironic the the person that started this thread is the only one that would openly admit he would not have done anything to save any of them?

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Originally Posted by scfire86

The victims at the Giffords shooting tackled Loughner while he was reloading. Same with the students who were being shot by Kip Kinkel.

Kip was only a 15 year old, and probably not very proficient, and was dyslexic. He was reloading a .22 Ruger, which probably was a lot slower to reload. If he'd been using the 9mm Glock, the kids who disarmed him probably would not have had time to do what they did.

I can't explain the reactions of the students at Columbine. Human behavior isn't predictable.

Columbine was planned out extensively, and they were in areas that were wide open, providing little cover.

Once again you are falling into the trap of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Time is an enemy to an attacker in this scenario. The more time they are dealing with hardened entry points is more time for the good guys to get there and deal with them.

True, but then you'd have to do a check of everyone coming through the doors. At somepoint, Employees and students usually have to be let inside of the building at some point in the school day.
And a shooter does not have to be perfect, they just have to have basic proficiency to be lethal.
Should we adopt the Israeli model?

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Specifically WHAT Israeli model are you referring too? They do have some good ones. We should definitely adopt their model for airport security, ours sucks unless terrrorist groups start recruiting handicapped children and grandma's with medical conditions.

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Originally Posted by johnsb

Kip was only a 15 year old, and probably not very proficient, and was dyslexic. He was reloading a .22 Ruger, which probably was a lot slower to reload. If he'd been using the 9mm Glock, the kids who disarmed him probably would not have had time to do what they did.

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The kids that tackled him might have been able to do that as he attempted to replace his 10 round magazine and dropped the second one on the ground. Since so many of you like to deal in hypotheticals.

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Originally Posted by johnsb

Columbine was planned out extensively, and they were in areas that were wide open, providing little cover.

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Your point? There was an armed security guard on campus.

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Originally Posted by johnsb

True, but then you'd have to do a check of everyone coming through the doors. At somepoint, Employees and students usually have to be let inside of the building at some point in the school day.
And a shooter does not have to be perfect, they just have to have basic proficiency to be lethal.

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The idea is to delay the shooter as much as possible giving responders (whether they be on campus or the local cops) time to get there. With the idea of minimizing the amount of killing that could be done.

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Originally Posted by johnsb

Specifically WHAT Israeli model are you referring too? They do have some good ones. We should definitely adopt their model for airport security, ours sucks unless terrrorist groups start recruiting handicapped children and grandma's with medical conditions.

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I wasn't the one proposing the Israeli model. You'll have to ask one of those who liked their approach to gun ownership in their country.

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Originally Posted by scfire86

Your point? There was an armed security guard on campus.

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From what I've read, the shooting had already started by the time the security guard was notified. He was outside eating his lunch when a custodian requested his assistance. After he was notified, he had to drive around the campus to where the shooting was occurring, arriving 5 minutes after the intital shot (he wasn't notified until 3 minutes into it). It should be noted he was 60 yards away and they were able to duck back into the building. At the same time, at least two people escaped while he exchanged fire with them.

He also engaged the Klebold and Harris as they fired at him through windows for several minutes. How many escaped at that point? During that time he covered and escorted 15 students out of the line of fire of the pair.

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Originally Posted by scfire86

The idea is to delay the shooter as much as possible giving responders (whether they be on campus or the local cops) time to get there. With the idea of minimizing the amount of killing that could be done.

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Seems to me that Deputy Gardner did just that. His engagement with Klebold and Harris most certainly caused a distraction and saved lives. Had he not been there, there's no telling how many more would have died.

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Originally Posted by Catch22

From what I've read, the shooting had already started by the time the security guard was notified. He was outside eating his lunch when a custodian requested his assistance. After he was notified, he had to drive around the campus to where the shooting was occurring, arriving 5 minutes after the intital shot (he wasn't notified until 3 minutes into it). It should be noted he was 60 yards away and they were able to duck back into the building. At the same time, at least two people escaped while he exchanged fire with them.

He also engaged the Klebold and Harris as they fired at him through windows for several minutes. How many escaped at that point? During that time he covered and escorted 15 students out of the line of fire of the pair.

Seems to me that Deputy Gardner did just that. His engagement with Klebold and Harris most certainly caused a distraction and saved lives. Had he not been there, there's no telling how many more would have died.

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Agreed. His actions were very helpful that day.

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Originally Posted by Catch22

No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

Most schools around here already have a similar setup.

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Leaving them locked probably works pretty well for high schools. However, there is a lot of traffic in and out of classrooms in elementary schools. In addition to what seems to be constant restroom emergencies, kids are pulled out of classes for specialized reading intervention, speech, etc. The classroom teacher would be spending a lot of time opening the door for kids.

The truth about armed security is, just like firefighters when we are needed, in most places there will never be enough. To be serious about armed security you would need at a minimum 4 personnel in any school building, on on each side of the building so that no quadrant of the building was ever left unprotected. Those guards should be backed by someone monitoring cameras of EVERY entrance to the building so that if trouble arises a response could be initiated. The main reason that this will NEVER happen...COST. The odds of most schools ever having a violent attack like what happened in Sandy Hook make it not economically sound for school boards to spend money to harden schools or to put armed security in place.

So then what is the answer? There isn't one, at least not with the current emotionally charged atmosphere and that is why the knee jerk BS of punishing law abiding citizens for once again OBEYING the law is not going down so smoothly this time. Punish criminals who use guns with no ability to plea bargain. Take a SERIOUS look at the mental health crisis in this country and stop pretending that it isn't a serious problem. Make it easier to put people under a 72 hour psychiatric hold if they show irratic or psychotic, violent behavior. Actually do evaluations instead of drugging people, giving them meds and DUMPING them back into society again so they can get in trouble again. ANSWERS that may actually have an impact, instead of feel good do nothing nonsense.

I know that this is not what the anti-gun, or anti-certain types of guns, or anti-high capacity magazine, crowd wants to hear. Too bad, their solutions will do nothing, fix nothing, and the same issues will arise over and over and over until someone goes "Hey, take away all the guns and the problem will go away." Nice try dumb azz, once again the criminals will of course line up willingly to turn in their guns for a McDonald's gift certificate. YEAH, sure they will. I am just amazed at he utter naivety of this crowd...Seriously, how does restricting the rights of law abiding citizens solve a crime and mental health problem?

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Originally Posted by Catch22

No offense, but sometimes reading your posts they come off different than what you apparently intend.

To meet code, if they lock from the outside it shouldn't take more than a twist of the knob to open from the inside. Simply leave it locked at all times if that's the case. That requires either someone with a key to open it (teacher or administrator, assumably) or to be opened from the inside. Simple, cheap, and easy way to add a step of security.

Most schools around here already have a similar setup.

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Originally Posted by tbzep

Leaving them locked probably works pretty well for high schools. However, there is a lot of traffic in and out of classrooms in elementary schools. In addition to what seems to be constant restroom emergencies, kids are pulled out of classes for specialized reading intervention, speech, etc. The classroom teacher would be spending a lot of time opening the door for kids.

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Nothing personal. This is the least of the issue. The technology exists to lock the doors from the inside and be able to gain access from the authorized individuals if those inside lock the door.

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Originally Posted by FyredUp

I know that this is not what the anti-gun, or anti-certain types of guns, or anti-high capacity magazine, crowd wants to hear. Too bad, their solutions will do nothing, fix nothing, and the same issues will arise over and over and over until someone goes "Hey, take away all the guns and the problem will go away." Nice try dumb azz, once again the criminals will of course line up willingly to turn in their guns for a McDonald's gift certificate. YEAH, sure they will. I am just amazed at he utter naivety of this crowd...Seriously, how does restricting the rights of law abiding citizens solve a crime and mental health problem?

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Other countries have managed to allow its citizens the right to bear arms while placing restrictions. The US is unique seems to be unique in its occurrence of frequent mass shootings at educational institutions. Saying that more regulations is pointless is an equally misguided statement as saying we should all be armed all the time.

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Originally Posted by scfire86

Other countries have managed to allow its citizens the right to bear arms while placing restrictions. The US is unique seems to be unique in its occurrence of frequent mass shootings at educational institutions. Saying that more regulations is pointless is an equally misguided statement as saying we should all be armed all the time.

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Look the simple truth is you have not offered a single solution directed at criminals or the mentally ill. Your answers do nothing put restrict law abiding citizens that have violated no laws with their legally owned firearms and accessories. That is how these things always get handled, emotional, knee jerk reactions that do nothing but restrict the rights of law abiding citizens.

Imagine the shock and surprise of that crowd when it happens again when all of the nonsensical feel good BS laws don't work. The criminals go unchecked and the mentally ill go untreated. Yepper, all will be right with the world because those that never did a damn thing wrong are further restricted. Pathetically sad how delusional that thought process is.

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Originally Posted by MemphisE34a

Am I the only one that finds it ironic the the person that started this thread is the only one that would openly admit he would not have done anything to save any of them?

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Nice.

And exactly what does that have to do with the current discussion?

:D:D

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Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

Nice.

And exactly what does that have to do with the current discussion?

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Seriously Dude, if you were a fish the hook would be set so deep in you that when the fisherman gave the line a yank it would turn you inside out.

You just have to let some of this crap go, otherwise it will go on and on and on.

If I were you I would only listen when I tear into you because it is obvious that I am the only one that knows anything!!:eek: :rolleyes: :D

It really has nothing to do with the size of the clip, whether the gun is semi-automatic, or even if is dressed up to look "military" like. It has everything to do with your core belief: you believe that the human is ultimately responsible or its the fault of an inanimate object, the gun.
If you believe its the human,you look deeply into the mental health aspect and failure, you profile those that display the well documented social symptoms, you train the educators to identify the known indicators, you focus your energy on the human and THEIR access to guns.
If you believe its the intimate object, the gun, you do things like try to ban certain types, regulate the number of rounds they hold, limit their outward appearance, completely ignoring the fact that none of these can or will work with out something or someone operating them. You take no time or effort to isolate the problem and solve that. It's easier to punish all.

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Even has a reference to search......