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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Nothing personal. This is the least of the issue. The technology exists to lock the doors from the inside and be able to gain access from the authorized individuals if those inside lock the door.
    That technology has existed for about 4,000 years (wooden key/lock) and ~1000 years for iron. The key (no pun intended) is to have something that will be convenient and consistently used by teachers and hopefully won't cost a fortune to implement. I know that convenience should not be a factor when it comes to safety. However, things are not convenient are often conveniently forgotten, at least until they've been caught a few times.

    Heavy doors and automatic locks will do just fine for someone who's blown his top and stormed down to his kid's classroom to yank the kid out or yell at the teacher. Since all these possible precautions are being discussed and reported in mass media, someone with intent to commit mass murder will be prepared to deal with simple locked doors and it shouldn't slow him significantly.

    I'm not trying to sway anyone. I'm just pointing out things that have and will be argued when various school boards discuss implimenting some of the things we are discussing here. I have relatives teaching at every level from pre-K through graduate level mathematics and have spent a fair amount of time in our local schools myself. I don't claim to know the answers, but IMHO prevention is the key, just like with potentially deadly fires.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    Leaving them locked probably works pretty well for high schools. However, there is a lot of traffic in and out of classrooms in elementary schools. In addition to what seems to be constant restroom emergencies, kids are pulled out of classes for specialized reading intervention, speech, etc. The classroom teacher would be spending a lot of time opening the door for kids.
    They really aren't in-and-out as much as you might think. My wife teaches Kindergarten and used to teach first grade. They always had the doors locked. If someone came to pick up students, the teacher (or student) would open the door when the person was identified through the window.

    The doors at both schools she's worked at, as well as most I've been in, lock automatically and require a key to enter from the hallway. However, they open with the simple push of a lever-style knob from the inside of the room.

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    I work in 2 school buildings everyday. Pre-K through 8, 9-12. Exterior doors are locked, most of them are metal with very narrow windows and a key is needed to unlock the doors. Interior doors are solid core, again key needed to unlock the door. Classroom doors are not locked during the day when kids are in the buildings. Every 45 minutes, the high school kids exit and enter classrooms. Every 45 minutes, the 6-8 graders exit and enter classrooms. At least 6 times a day, the k-5 students enter and exit classrooms. At any time during the day...there is a very good chance that kids are not in their "main" classroom.

    The geniuses that plan these attacks can find out when kids are where and the "best" time to get at them.

    They can also plan when they are on the busses (for those districts that have bussing), when they are sporting events, etc.

    Just keep hoping that these attacks don't become anymore common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I work in 2 school buildings everyday. Pre-K through 8, 9-12. Exterior doors are locked, most of them are metal with very narrow windows and a key is needed to unlock the doors. Interior doors are solid core, again key needed to unlock the door. Classroom doors are not locked during the day when kids are in the buildings. Every 45 minutes, the high school kids exit and enter classrooms. Every 45 minutes, the 6-8 graders exit and enter classrooms. At least 6 times a day, the k-5 students enter and exit classrooms. At any time during the day...there is a very good chance that kids are not in their "main" classroom.

    The geniuses that plan these attacks can find out when kids are where and the "best" time to get at them.

    They can also plan when they are on the busses (for those districts that have bussing), when they are sporting events, etc.

    Just keep hoping that these attacks don't become anymore common.

    Exactly the point I made above...
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The kids that tackled him might have been able to do that as he attempted to replace his 10 round magazine and dropped the second one on the ground. Since so many of you like to deal in hypotheticals.


    Your point? There was an armed security guard on campus.


    The idea is to delay the shooter as much as possible giving responders (whether they be on campus or the local cops) time to get there. With the idea of minimizing the amount of killing that could be done.


    I wasn't the one proposing the Israeli model. You'll have to ask one of those who liked their approach to gun ownership in their country.
    You're the one that keeps bringing up the hypotheticals of stopping someone with a ten round magazine, it's a very rare likelyhood. Again, it only takes 2-3 seconds to change out a mag. If you'd ever had any experience with a semi-auto you'd know that. But that's typical when you try to explain that to the anti-gun crowd that doesn't know a thing about guns.
    They were also lucky in Columbine that Harris and Klebold weren't very good bomb builders, they had almost a hundred devices.
    You brought up the Israeli subject, I expected you to have some knowledge of what you were talking about, but then again it was about guns so I should've known you wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    They really aren't in-and-out as much as you might think. My wife teaches Kindergarten and used to teach first grade. They always had the doors locked. If someone came to pick up students, the teacher (or student) would open the door when the person was identified through the window.

    The doors at both schools she's worked at, as well as most I've been in, lock automatically and require a key to enter from the hallway. However, they open with the simple push of a lever-style knob from the inside of the room.
    I'm sure it varies from district to district and state to state. I taught phys. ed. in two different schools including an elementary, and also taught science at a middle school. I student taught and observed in many more schools. At some elementary schools, you wonder when kids ever actually sit down and learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    You're the one that keeps bringing up the hypotheticals of stopping someone with a ten round magazine, it's a very rare likelyhood. Again, it only takes 2-3 seconds to change out a mag. If you'd ever had any experience with a semi-auto you'd know that. But that's typical when you try to explain that to the anti-gun crowd that doesn't know a thing about guns.
    I own three semi-auto handguns. I'm not surprised you assumed I know nothing about guns or that I'm anti-gun. Yes it takes AT LEAST 2-3 seconds to change mags if done perfectly. Longer if the individual fumbles or drops the magazine or weapon. Both of which are also possibilities. The people who subdued Loughner and Kinkel were able to do so in those interludes when the shooter was changing magazines. So it is not a hypothetical.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    They were also lucky in Columbine that Harris and Klebold weren't very good bomb builders, they had almost a hundred devices.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    You brought up the Israeli subject, I expected you to have some knowledge of what you were talking about, but then again it was about guns so I should've known you wouldn't.
    Like what? The Israeli model was proposed by someone else until I detailed the hoops one must jump through to gain a gun owner permit. Even then, an individual is only allowed to own one gun with a max of 50 rounds in their possession. How much more knowledge do I need?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-04-2013 at 12:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It really has nothing to do with the size of the clip, whether the gun is semi-automatic, or even if is dressed up to look "military" like. It has everything to do with your core belief: you believe that the human is ultimately responsible or its the fault of an inanimate object, the gun.
    If you believe its the human,you look deeply into the mental health aspect and failure, you profile those that display the well documented social symptoms, you train the educators to identify the known indicators, you focus your energy on the human and THEIR access to guns.
    If you believe its the intimate object, the gun, you do things like try to ban certain types, regulate the number of rounds they hold, limit their outward appearance, completely ignoring the fact that none of these can or will work with out something or someone operating them. You take no time or effort to isolate the problem and solve that. It's easier to punish all.
    It is called a MAGAZINE.
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    Honestly, with practice 2-3 seconds is kind of slow to change a magazine in a pistol. IF you practice. For me it will take longer to change a magazine in my rifle than in my pistol, not substantially so, but longer.

    Clip - A simple, disposable narrow spring-lined channel-rail in which cartridges are supplied for military weapons. The shooter positions the clip vertically above the firearm's magazine, then pressing down with the thumb, slides the cartridges from the clip and down into the magazine. Also: Stripper Clip or Charger.

    Magazine - A spring-operated reservoir for cartridges for a repeating firearm; often removable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Honestly, with practice 2-3 seconds is kind of slow to change a magazine in a pistol. IF you practice. For me it will take longer to change a magazine in my rifle than in my pistol, not substantially so, but longer.
    Honestly, you aren't stressing about selecting your next human target to kill when you're doing it. Big difference. As I've pointed out numerous times, that interlude has allowed bystanders to subdue their attacker on more than one occasion. Dismissing it as a non-issue is naive at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Clip - A simple, disposable narrow spring-lined channel-rail in which cartridges are supplied for military weapons. The shooter positions the clip vertically above the firearm's magazine, then pressing down with the thumb, slides the cartridges from the clip and down into the magazine. Also: Stripper Clip or Charger.

    Magazine - A spring-operated reservoir for cartridges for a repeating firearm; often removable.
    Yawn. Semantics meant to deflect from the primary issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Honestly, you aren't stressing about selecting your next human target to kill when you're doing it. Big difference. As I've pointed out numerous times, that interlude has allowed bystanders to subdue their attacker on more than one occasion. Dismissing it as a non-issue is naive at best.

    Nope, I am not. But I DO practice magazine changes as part of my own self defense training. So I think I can speak with authority on what I can do. If I can do it, anyone with any amount of practice can do it too.


    Yawn. Semantics meant to deflect from the primary issue.

    Not really even addressed to you, but to paraphrase Carly Simon "You're so vain, I'll bet you thought my comment was about you..."

    I was responding to SPFDRum and bcjack about the definition of clips and magazines.

    Your inability to define an assault weapon is completely characteristic of the ban something crowd. Knee jerk, emotional, uneducated on the topic demands that do nothing except punish law abiding citizens. I could respect your side of this IF your side had a single damn clue about what they are talking about. Come on a Ruger 10/22 hunting rife is an assault weapon? Get real.

    Blather, no real solutions, and an inability to speak on the topic with any real knowledge seems to define you and that entire crowd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nope, I am not. But I DO practice magazine changes as part of my own self defense training. So I think I can speak with authority on what I can do. If I can do it, anyone with any amount of practice can do it too.
    And when you are practicing that act are there people coming to try and subdue or kill you? Are their other people nearby waiting to pounce on you and beat the hell out of you when you are changing? While you may believe that anyone can do it, I have to keep restating that was precisely the time when two attackers were disarmed by their potential victims. I know that is a point you would like to ignore, but REAL life has shown that is a viable scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not really even addressed to you, but to paraphrase Carly Simon "You're so vain, I'll bet you thought my comment was about you..."
    Didn't think that at all. Though I enjoyed your belief that you know what I'm thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I was responding to SPFDRum and bcjack about the definition of clips and magazines.

    Your inability to define an assault weapon is completely characteristic of the ban something crowd. Knee jerk, emotional, uneducated on the topic demands that do nothing except punish law abiding citizens. I could respect your side of this IF your side had a single damn clue about what they are talking about. Come on a Ruger 10/22 hunting rife is an assault weapon? Get real.
    Definitions that suit your beliefs. You want to believe yours is the only definition. Have at it. You're allowed your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Blather, no real solutions, and an inability to speak on the topic with any real knowledge seems to define you and that entire crowd.
    I say we adopt the Israeli model that you believe would help address the issue. Are you still in favor of it?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-05-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And when you are practicing that act are there people coming to try and subdue or kill you? Are their other people nearby waiting to pounce on you and beat the hell out of you when you are changing? While you may believe that anyone can do it, I have to keep restating that was precisely the time when two attackers were disarmed by their potential victims. I know that is a point you would like to ignore, but REAL life has shown that is a viable scenario.

    Muscle memory. Practice until you can't screw it up. That would completely negate your argument about people charging in on you. If it's so strongly practiced, and it's not about having to think about it, it's just muscle memory, then I believe there is no way to screw it up.

    I think you gravely underestimate the amount of thought and planning that goes into some of these shootings. They may not plan out the incident in and of itself, but if you think they haven't worked with the weapon to make sure they are very familiar with it's operation, you're fooling yourself
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And when you are practicing that act are there people coming to try and subdue or kill you? Are their other people nearby waiting to pounce on you and beat the hell out of you when you are changing? While you may believe that anyone can do it, I have to keep restating that was precisely the time when two attackers were disarmed by their potential victims. I know that is a point you would like to ignore, but REAL life has shown that is a viable scenario.

    I believe that ANYONE that actually practices rapid reloads has a VERY good chance of performing them under duress, just the same as firefighters that practice their skills can perform them just as rapidly when Gramma Jones is screaming at the second story window with her hair on fire. Perfect practice makes perfect performance. You don't like that, but it is the truth.


    Didn't think that at all. Though I enjoyed your belief that you know what I'm thinking.

    You commented on it now didn't you? When it was obviously a response to 2 posts above yours.


    Definitions that suit your beliefs. You want to believe yours is the only definition. Have at it. You're allowed your opinion.

    Actually definitions from a firearms website. Sorry that actual knowledge terrifies you. Those definitions are clear concise and correct. Unfortunately they have become interchangeable to many and mostly to the morons of the anti crowd that can't even define what they want to ban. Nice try acting smug but in reality you just look foolish and uninformed ONCE AGAIN!

    Not that you'll look but here is the reference I used for the definitions: http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm



    I say we adopt the Israeli model that you believe would help address the issue. Are you still in favor of it?

    Parts of it for sure. Like teachers and teachers aids having access to firearms to protect their students. Otherwise no, I will admit for you, so you can gloat, that i was wrong about the Israeli model of gun ownership. Happy now?
    Name:  170px-Stanag_mags.jpg
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    Okay super genius which is depicts clips and which depicts magazines?
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    Texas Governor Rick Perry wants to allow teachers to pack heat:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-...ck-Perry-video
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 01-05-2013 at 01:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Muscle memory. Practice until you can't screw it up. That would completely negate your argument about people charging in on you. If it's so strongly practiced, and it's not about having to think about it, it's just muscle memory, then I believe there is no way to screw it up.
    Yet that exact scenario has occurred on more than one occasion. Dismissing the will of potential victims to survive is naive at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I think you gravely underestimate the amount of thought and planning that goes into some of these shootings. They may not plan out the incident in and of itself, but if you think they haven't worked with the weapon to make sure they are very familiar with it's operation, you're fooling yourself
    I agree the shooters were familiar with their equipment. I agree they probably put forth time and effort to plan their acts. However, none of that replaces what will actually happen when the incident is occurring. All the planning in the world doesn't take into effect outside influences that might occur. Nor does it take into consideration unforseen issues that might occur that one cannot plan in advance to safeguard against.

    Murphy's Law: "If something can go wrong, it will go wrong at the worst possible time."

    Along with:

    "Every plan is good until the first shot is fired."

    Believing these types of incidents will go like clockwork because the shooter has practiced and planned is ridiculous. If that were the case there would never be any casualties when our armed forces engage in a battle.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I believe that ANYONE that actually practices rapid reloads has a VERY good chance of performing them under duress, just the same as firefighters that practice their skills can perform them just as rapidly when Gramma Jones is screaming at the second story window with her hair on fire. Perfect practice makes perfect performance. You don't like that, but it is the truth.
    Maybe so. But I get back to my premise again that the scenario I detailed as a possibility has occurred on more than one occasion. You don't like it, but it is the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You commented on it now didn't you? When it was obviously a response to 2 posts above yours.

    Actually definitions from a firearms website. Sorry that actual knowledge terrifies you. Those definitions are clear concise and correct. Unfortunately they have become interchangeable to many and mostly to the morons of the anti crowd that can't even define what they want to ban. Nice try acting smug but in reality you just look foolish and uninformed ONCE AGAIN!

    Not that you'll look but here is the reference I used for the definitions: http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm
    You're arguing nomenclature as if anyone but you cares. To quote one of my favorite lines from the 2012 Presidential debates: "please proceed."

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Parts of it for sure. Like teachers and teachers aids having access to firearms to protect their students. Otherwise no, I will admit for you, so you can gloat, that i was wrong about the Israeli model of gun ownership. Happy now?
    Which the Israelis claim is not the reason for their significantly lower amount of homicide by gun statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Attachment 22669Attachment 22670

    Okay super genius which is depicts clips and which depicts magazines?
    Could care less. The anti-gun crowd could care less about your pedantic demands regarding nomenclature of firearms. You should be more concerned with policy instead of being focused on what you believe are firearm critics and their lack of sophistication to what you believe is improper terminology.

    For the record. The ones on the left are magazines. One on the right is a stripper clip for maybe a 1903 Springfield. The other on the right is the internal clip used on the M1 Garand. Both of which could easily have been considered the assault rifles of their respective eras.

    FWIW, the person who taught me to shoot was a WW II vet who fought in the PTO. He used the terms interchangeably. Believing that your labeling of firearms accessories is an absolute is yet another indication of a parochial mindset that is focused on minutiae believing that is critical to winning the debate.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-05-2013 at 04:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Maybe so. But I get back to my premise again that the scenario I detailed as a possibility has occurred on more than one occasion. You don't like it, but it is the truth.

    So tell me super genius, how did the AK-47 bank robbers continue OVER AND OVER AND OVER to successfully reload their weapons while being fired upon by a massively superior number of LEOs? And don't tell me it was because they were wearing body armor. Ask anyone who has taken a hit while wearing body armor, it is like getting punched or kicked. So let's hear it...HOW DID THEY DO IT?

    I'll tell you. The difference is familiarity with a weapon and practice based KNOWLEDGE of a weapon. I have never fired an M16/M4 in my life. I have held both a full auto military version and semi-auto civilian versions in my hands. I guarantee you I can load and fire that weapon and as long as nothing goes wrong, like a jam or some other failure I will do fine. But IF a failure of some sort occurs I will be in trouble because I am only familiar with that firearm, not knowledgeable on it. Now put one of MY firearms in my hands, some of which I have fired thousands of rounds down range with, and if a failure occurs I am well versed in that firearm and can generally in a matter of seconds be operational again.



    You're arguing nomenclature as if anyone but you cares. To quote one of my favorite lines from the 2012 Presidential debates: "please proceed."


    Easy to act smug when you are so ignorant of the topic that you have nothing else. This nomenclature is VERY important and VERY critical when those pushing for new laws don't know the difference between a clip and a magazine, or an assault rifle and a military appearing semi-automatic rifle. Sad you are such an arrogant *** you can't admit you own ignorance and unwillingness to learn.

    I will use your line, "Please Proceed" to spew your ignorance because it is so damn easy to make you look foolish.


    Which the Israelis claim is not the reason for their significantly lower amount of homicide by gun statistics.

    Facts, let's see that in hard facts. Otherwise it is unsubstantiated blather from you. And you have proven, other than snipets you have taken from the internet, your ignorance of this topic.


    Could care less. The anti-gun crowd could care less about your pedantic demands regarding nomenclature of firearms. You should be more concerned with policy instead of being focused on what you believe are firearm critics and their lack of sophistication to what you believe is improper terminology.

    Of course they don't care because the truth is YOU and THEM want ALL THE GUNS and won't stop until you get them. Good luck because there are people far more ****ed off about this nonsense than myself and when confiscation, or registration begins it will not be pretty. Ignorance is bliss and you must be the happiest man alive when it comes to discussing gun control.

    For the record. The ones on the left are magazines. One on the right is a stripper clip for maybe a 1903 Springfield. The other on the right is the internal clip used on the M1 Garand. Both of which could easily have been considered the assault rifles of their respective eras.

    You had to look it up though didn't you? Sad...

    And no matter how many times you say it you will never be right calling the Garand or the '03 Springfield assault rifles. I bet when you were a kid you put your fingers in your ears and tried to shout people down when they proved you wrong, heck I bet you do that today. BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW BADLY YOU WANT IT TO BE TRUE YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE GARAND AND THE '03 SPRINGFIELD.


    FWIW, the person who taught me to shoot was a WW II vet who fought in the PTO. He used the terms interchangeably. Believing that your labeling of firearms accessories is an absolute is yet another indication of a parochial mindset that is focused on minutiae believing that is critical to winning the debate.

    Well, sorry to tell you this but I believe you are lying right through your teeth. The term assault rifle came in to being late in the war when identifying the Sturmgewehr German rifle. Sad once again that history and the truth mean nothing to you.

    Acting snotty and arrogant doesn't change how wrong you are.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-05-2013 at 07:54 PM.
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    Enough said!



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    Quote Originally Posted by bcjack View Post
    It is called a MAGAZINE.
    Trust me, I know the difference, the military has a way of doing that. But, when you have individuals that don't know the difference between an assault rifle and and a semi-automatic Remington bushmaster deer rifle, who am I to ruin the word dejour.
    What ever you call them, there is a segment of population that believes they are the root of evil.
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