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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    My wife teaches school and is darn good at it. She's never fired a weapon in her life. Not the route to go.
    The "security guard" at the school where my wife teaches has cerebral palsy......

    I'm pretty sure I don't want him shooting at anything.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    First thought is that would make them the very first targets.
    Which is probably why the "school resource officer" that was on duty at my old high school was dressed like a teacher last time I visited.

    A determined attacker will find a way to do his deed. If that includes taking out the defenses, they'll do it, and probably first.

    One thing we lost when this dude offed himself as some semblance of an explanation. We don't know if this was a spur of the moment deal, or if he'd been planning it for a while. And unless someone finds some journals or other documents, we probably never will.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    we cant get our cops to shoot straight in some of the busiest cities in the country.....why the f*ck would a teacher be able to handle that situation any better?
    Because they are there, when something like this goes down a way to resolve it is needed THEN not 5 or 10 minutes from now.

    And no I'm not so sure that what I said is a good idea, Just sorta thought of it so I figured I would put it here and debate it
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    ...One thing we lost when this dude offed himself as some semblance of an explanation. We don't know if this was a spur of the moment deal, or if he'd been planning it for a while. And unless someone finds some journals or other documents, we probably never will.
    True. That knowledge MAY have proven useful in preventing future incidents.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    True. That knowledge MAY have proven useful in preventing future incidents.
    Doubtful.

    The reality is that this will happen again someplace.... maybe not a school .... within a couple of months. In fact, it already has as there was a shooting incident, with I believe two fatalities, at a hospital in Alabama (I think) just a couple of days after this.

    Unless we want to turn every public building, store, theater and workplace into a fortress and somehow magically collect all the guns currently on the street, it's going to happen on a regular basis. Call me a pessimist if you wish, but I fear it's just become the nature of society. Unhappy with your boss .. Shoot up the workplace. Unhappy with your ex-wife ... Shoot her and few friends or co-workers. Unhappy that Burger King didn't give you a big enough slice of tomato on that Whopper .. Shoot em' up. Or just want to have your friends hear your name .... Find some targets, shoot them up and then off yourself.

    The sad thing is we as a service needs to accept the fact that there is a much higher likelihood of us having to respond to an incident like this than there was 20 years ago, so be prepared and plan. Your district could be in somebody's cross hairs right now and you may be the the lead story on FoxNews or CNN tomorrow.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    So you don't believe that knowing the thoughts of people who commit this would be beneficial in any way? Knowing why they choose to do this would not help in any way to prevent this?

    I'm not talking about locks, less windows, stronger doors, etc. I'm talking getting to the real heart of the issue.....the brain.

    I truly cannot imagine knowing their thoughts would be useless.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #27
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    We've learned a lot about PTSD by observation and knowing the surrounding circumstances. This likely wasn't any sort of PTSD, but if there were indicators, it would be handy to be able to correlate them with the end result, thus allowing the possibility of prevention of similar incidents.

    As I recall, that evidence existed for the Columbine incident. We've seen numerous incidents where it was known that the assailant had an issue with a co-worker or a significant other. The losses in those incidents are no less painful, but at least we gain a certain solace in knowing that an incident wasn't a random happening - that aside from the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, we weren't threatened by a random act of violence. Even Timothy McVeigh had a motive.

    For all we know, this kid harbored a long and bitter resentment for the school. Or perhaps he felt jealous that the kids there were getting something he was somehow denied. Maybe something just snapped. We just don't know. All we can do is try to piece together the shreds of information into something that makes some sense. And sometimes even those shreds can be hard to find.

    For all that - LA's right. It will happen again. The truly scary part is that it may not involve guns. Such terrorists are clever folk.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    Agree 100%.

    Maybe it's time that some of the school staff be allowed to carry, Well maybe not carry on their person all of the time. Maybe office personal that has weapons in a lock box, or something of the like.

    Thoughts?
    I wouldn't support that answer. What next? Start requiring teachers to get monthly training like LEO's? Start requiring them to wear body armor?

    A better answer would be to have an LEO at schools. This is done in many cities in OC and works quite well.

    Perhaps it is time to revisit sensible gun control as was done in Austrailia. Their reforms in the mid-90's have seen dramatic reductions in mass shootings.

    Or at the very least consider some of the ideas proposed by Mayor Bloomberg in a recent Op-Ed.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Doubtful.
    I would expect nothing less from you. Yes. Let's not look for information regarding causation. That mindset has always served mankind well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So you don't believe that knowing the thoughts of people who commit this would be beneficial in any way? Knowing why they choose to do this would not help in any way to prevent this?

    I'm not talking about locks, less windows, stronger doors, etc. I'm talking getting to the real heart of the issue.....the brain.

    I truly cannot imagine knowing their thoughts would be useless.
    I think we pretty much have some very good ideas as to why folks do this type of stuff.

    Problem is that each person who com mitts mass murder probably has their own trigger and some very specific personal reasons that lead to these types of events.

    Not being a psychologist or not having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I really can't say for sure. But I will say that unless we are prepared to sink a whole lot more money into mental health .. and I mean A LOT more ... it's very likely that these things will keep happening at their current pace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I would expect nothing less from you. Yes. Let's not look for information regarding causation. That mindset has always served mankind well.
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events.

    These triggers are likely very personal and i doubt they can broadly applied across the board. We already know the general reasons why folks do these things.

    We know some things that will work. A cop in every school, but that costs big $$$ when you start looking at the fiscal realities, Better security systems? Ya, maybe, but do we really want to turn every school, theater and any other target that somebody could pick into armed fortresses, and what would the cost be to do that? And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.

    As far as taking away our right to carry, I know as a liberal you probably have little need for that silly document called the Constitution but last I checked that little piece of paper gave us that right. I don't own a gun, but I fully 100% support their right of any competent American to own as many guns as they so choose. You want to take that right away .. You and your buddy and make believe president Obumba just try it and see how far you get down here in these parts.

    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-20-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events...
    You really want to stick with this statement? The number of surviving mass murderers is very low. It's a very low percentage of population to draw much detailed accurate information from.

    Of course, there are lots of experts telling you what the person must have been thinking...even though they never met the person and the person is dead. But hey, why let more knowledge get in the way.

    And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.
    Because very good security is basically reactive and not proactive. Attempting to curtail the event beforehand, POSSIBLY by profiling people, will stop the event from occurring and having the need for "fortresses".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events.
    Not the point. Keep up with your mindset. It only reinforces what we know about you already.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    These triggers are likely very personal and i doubt they can broadly applied across the board. We already know the general reasons why folks do these things.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We know some things that will work. A cop in every school, but that costs big $$$ when you start looking at the fiscal realities, Better security systems? Ya, maybe, but do we really want to turn every school, theater and any other target that somebody could pick into armed fortresses, and what would the cost be to do that? And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.
    I bet there are 20 sets of parents in Newtown, CT would have gladly paid that amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as taking away our right to carry, I know as a liberal you probably have little need for that silly document called the Constitution but last I checked that little piece of paper gave us that right. I don't own a gun, but I fully 100% support their right of any competent American to own as many guns as they so choose. You want to take that right away .. You and your buddy and make believe president Obumba just try it and see how far you get down here in these parts.
    No where have I advocated banning all firearms. I only stated there are sensible regulations that could be put in place that have been shown to work elsewhere. As far as the Constitution. I can point to infringements on other parts of the Bill of Rights that have occurred during the course of our nation's history. The 1st and 4th Amendments being two of them. And conservatives have praised those restrictions when they were enacted or were attempted to be enacted. But somehow not allowing one to own a 30 round magazine for a weapon that is no sporting value (unless one is hunting humans) is an outrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    I've also noticed that violent crime in LA and TX is higher than it is in CA. There is nothing to show that packing heat is a deterrent.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    Before making a blanket statement like that, you should probably do some research on school violence. For example, on March 30, 2011 one person was killed and five injured at an incident in Houston, Texas.

    Only the incidents where several are killed seem to make the news. I bet few remember anything about the incident at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio just this last February- 3 dead and 3 injured by a 17 YO gunman.

    This happens, for various reasons, more than anyone probably wants to admit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Before making a blanket statement like that, you should probably do some research on school violence. For example, on March 30, 2011 one person was killed and five injured at an incident in Houston, Texas.

    Only the incidents where several are killed seem to make the news. I bet few remember anything about the incident at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio just this last February- 3 dead and 3 injured by a 17 YO gunman.

    This happens, for various reasons, more than anyone probably wants to admit.
    Or the Luby's (Kileen, TX) massacre in 1991. That one only left 23 people dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I wouldn't support that answer. What next? Start requiring teachers to get monthly training like LEO's? Start requiring them to wear body armor?

    A better answer would be to have an LEO at schools. This is done in many cities in OC and works quite well.

    Perhaps it is time to revisit sensible gun control as was done in Austrailia. Their reforms in the mid-90's have seen dramatic reductions in mass shootings.

    Or at the very least consider some of the ideas proposed by Mayor Bloomberg in a recent Op-Ed.
    Your opinion of Australian gun control may be a bit jaded...

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    I have a hard time being punished for being a law abiding gun owner, like millions of others, because of the actions of a few, evil people. Who I may add, already broke many laws to perpetuate such horrendous acts.
    You honestly think that those that truly want guns wont get them? read:drugs
    You honestly think that if some how, a Utopian gun control system in place would prevent senseless slaughter such as this? read:http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    You want to reduce senseless slaughter in this country, how about we ban the automobile. It murders more Americans than guns and knives combined.
    Unless you look at at the whole picture and equate number with cause, and cause with action, just picking gun control makes you nothing more than a hypocrite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Your opinion of Australian gun control may be a bit jaded...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RD...layer_embedded
    How many mass shootings have they had since their controls were enacted?

    As I pointed out to LAFE (rhymes with taffy), the violent crime rate in states that have lax gun laws is higher than those that are more restrictive.

    Nor did I say we should do EVERYTHING that was done in Australia. But parts that seemed to have worked should be studied.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I have a hard time being punished for being a law abiding gun owner, like millions of others, because of the actions of a few, evil people. Who I may add, already broke many laws to perpetuate such horrendous acts.
    You honestly think that those that truly want guns wont get them? read:drugs
    You honestly think that if some how, a Utopian gun control system in place would prevent senseless slaughter such as this? read:http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    You want to reduce senseless slaughter in this country, how about we ban the automobile. It murders more Americans than guns and knives combined.
    Unless you look at at the whole picture and equate number with cause, and cause with action, just picking gun control makes you nothing more than a hypocrite.
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    Part of the problem is we don't do even a fair job of enforcing the laws we already have in place. Nor do we punish the violators of laws to the degree they should be to prevent them from violating the law again.

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