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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    So you don't believe that knowing the thoughts of people who commit this would be beneficial in any way? Knowing why they choose to do this would not help in any way to prevent this?

    I'm not talking about locks, less windows, stronger doors, etc. I'm talking getting to the real heart of the issue.....the brain.

    I truly cannot imagine knowing their thoughts would be useless.
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    We've learned a lot about PTSD by observation and knowing the surrounding circumstances. This likely wasn't any sort of PTSD, but if there were indicators, it would be handy to be able to correlate them with the end result, thus allowing the possibility of prevention of similar incidents.

    As I recall, that evidence existed for the Columbine incident. We've seen numerous incidents where it was known that the assailant had an issue with a co-worker or a significant other. The losses in those incidents are no less painful, but at least we gain a certain solace in knowing that an incident wasn't a random happening - that aside from the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, we weren't threatened by a random act of violence. Even Timothy McVeigh had a motive.

    For all we know, this kid harbored a long and bitter resentment for the school. Or perhaps he felt jealous that the kids there were getting something he was somehow denied. Maybe something just snapped. We just don't know. All we can do is try to piece together the shreds of information into something that makes some sense. And sometimes even those shreds can be hard to find.

    For all that - LA's right. It will happen again. The truly scary part is that it may not involve guns. Such terrorists are clever folk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    Agree 100%.

    Maybe it's time that some of the school staff be allowed to carry, Well maybe not carry on their person all of the time. Maybe office personal that has weapons in a lock box, or something of the like.

    Thoughts?
    I wouldn't support that answer. What next? Start requiring teachers to get monthly training like LEO's? Start requiring them to wear body armor?

    A better answer would be to have an LEO at schools. This is done in many cities in OC and works quite well.

    Perhaps it is time to revisit sensible gun control as was done in Austrailia. Their reforms in the mid-90's have seen dramatic reductions in mass shootings.

    Or at the very least consider some of the ideas proposed by Mayor Bloomberg in a recent Op-Ed.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Doubtful.
    I would expect nothing less from you. Yes. Let's not look for information regarding causation. That mindset has always served mankind well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So you don't believe that knowing the thoughts of people who commit this would be beneficial in any way? Knowing why they choose to do this would not help in any way to prevent this?

    I'm not talking about locks, less windows, stronger doors, etc. I'm talking getting to the real heart of the issue.....the brain.

    I truly cannot imagine knowing their thoughts would be useless.
    I think we pretty much have some very good ideas as to why folks do this type of stuff.

    Problem is that each person who com mitts mass murder probably has their own trigger and some very specific personal reasons that lead to these types of events.

    Not being a psychologist or not having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I really can't say for sure. But I will say that unless we are prepared to sink a whole lot more money into mental health .. and I mean A LOT more ... it's very likely that these things will keep happening at their current pace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I would expect nothing less from you. Yes. Let's not look for information regarding causation. That mindset has always served mankind well.
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events.

    These triggers are likely very personal and i doubt they can broadly applied across the board. We already know the general reasons why folks do these things.

    We know some things that will work. A cop in every school, but that costs big $$$ when you start looking at the fiscal realities, Better security systems? Ya, maybe, but do we really want to turn every school, theater and any other target that somebody could pick into armed fortresses, and what would the cost be to do that? And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.

    As far as taking away our right to carry, I know as a liberal you probably have little need for that silly document called the Constitution but last I checked that little piece of paper gave us that right. I don't own a gun, but I fully 100% support their right of any competent American to own as many guns as they so choose. You want to take that right away .. You and your buddy and make believe president Obumba just try it and see how far you get down here in these parts.

    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-20-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events...
    You really want to stick with this statement? The number of surviving mass murderers is very low. It's a very low percentage of population to draw much detailed accurate information from.

    Of course, there are lots of experts telling you what the person must have been thinking...even though they never met the person and the person is dead. But hey, why let more knowledge get in the way.

    And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.
    Because very good security is basically reactive and not proactive. Attempting to curtail the event beforehand, POSSIBLY by profiling people, will stop the event from occurring and having the need for "fortresses".
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And we find causation in this one guy. Big deal. We have found out why previous shooters have done what they have done and it really hasn't stopped future events.
    Not the point. Keep up with your mindset. It only reinforces what we know about you already.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    These triggers are likely very personal and i doubt they can broadly applied across the board. We already know the general reasons why folks do these things.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We know some things that will work. A cop in every school, but that costs big $$$ when you start looking at the fiscal realities, Better security systems? Ya, maybe, but do we really want to turn every school, theater and any other target that somebody could pick into armed fortresses, and what would the cost be to do that? And as we saw in this case, even what experts call very good security was easily bypassed.
    I bet there are 20 sets of parents in Newtown, CT would have gladly paid that amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as taking away our right to carry, I know as a liberal you probably have little need for that silly document called the Constitution but last I checked that little piece of paper gave us that right. I don't own a gun, but I fully 100% support their right of any competent American to own as many guns as they so choose. You want to take that right away .. You and your buddy and make believe president Obumba just try it and see how far you get down here in these parts.
    No where have I advocated banning all firearms. I only stated there are sensible regulations that could be put in place that have been shown to work elsewhere. As far as the Constitution. I can point to infringements on other parts of the Bill of Rights that have occurred during the course of our nation's history. The 1st and 4th Amendments being two of them. And conservatives have praised those restrictions when they were enacted or were attempted to be enacted. But somehow not allowing one to own a 30 round magazine for a weapon that is no sporting value (unless one is hunting humans) is an outrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    I've also noticed that violent crime in LA and TX is higher than it is in CA. There is nothing to show that packing heat is a deterrent.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PS .. Ever notice that you don't see many events like this in states like LA and TX where just about anyone could be packing. Think about it.
    Before making a blanket statement like that, you should probably do some research on school violence. For example, on March 30, 2011 one person was killed and five injured at an incident in Houston, Texas.

    Only the incidents where several are killed seem to make the news. I bet few remember anything about the incident at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio just this last February- 3 dead and 3 injured by a 17 YO gunman.

    This happens, for various reasons, more than anyone probably wants to admit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Before making a blanket statement like that, you should probably do some research on school violence. For example, on March 30, 2011 one person was killed and five injured at an incident in Houston, Texas.

    Only the incidents where several are killed seem to make the news. I bet few remember anything about the incident at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio just this last February- 3 dead and 3 injured by a 17 YO gunman.

    This happens, for various reasons, more than anyone probably wants to admit.
    Or the Luby's (Kileen, TX) massacre in 1991. That one only left 23 people dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I wouldn't support that answer. What next? Start requiring teachers to get monthly training like LEO's? Start requiring them to wear body armor?

    A better answer would be to have an LEO at schools. This is done in many cities in OC and works quite well.

    Perhaps it is time to revisit sensible gun control as was done in Austrailia. Their reforms in the mid-90's have seen dramatic reductions in mass shootings.

    Or at the very least consider some of the ideas proposed by Mayor Bloomberg in a recent Op-Ed.
    Your opinion of Australian gun control may be a bit jaded...

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    I have a hard time being punished for being a law abiding gun owner, like millions of others, because of the actions of a few, evil people. Who I may add, already broke many laws to perpetuate such horrendous acts.
    You honestly think that those that truly want guns wont get them? read:drugs
    You honestly think that if some how, a Utopian gun control system in place would prevent senseless slaughter such as this? read:http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    You want to reduce senseless slaughter in this country, how about we ban the automobile. It murders more Americans than guns and knives combined.
    Unless you look at at the whole picture and equate number with cause, and cause with action, just picking gun control makes you nothing more than a hypocrite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Your opinion of Australian gun control may be a bit jaded...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RD...layer_embedded
    How many mass shootings have they had since their controls were enacted?

    As I pointed out to LAFE (rhymes with taffy), the violent crime rate in states that have lax gun laws is higher than those that are more restrictive.

    Nor did I say we should do EVERYTHING that was done in Australia. But parts that seemed to have worked should be studied.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I have a hard time being punished for being a law abiding gun owner, like millions of others, because of the actions of a few, evil people. Who I may add, already broke many laws to perpetuate such horrendous acts.
    You honestly think that those that truly want guns wont get them? read:drugs
    You honestly think that if some how, a Utopian gun control system in place would prevent senseless slaughter such as this? read:http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    You want to reduce senseless slaughter in this country, how about we ban the automobile. It murders more Americans than guns and knives combined.
    Unless you look at at the whole picture and equate number with cause, and cause with action, just picking gun control makes you nothing more than a hypocrite.
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    Part of the problem is we don't do even a fair job of enforcing the laws we already have in place. Nor do we punish the violators of laws to the degree they should be to prevent them from violating the law again.

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    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    Not at all, but it does prove the fact that all those laws on the books concerning guns/gun crime are no different.
    As far as bans, what has been successful; drugs, prohibition, prostitution to name a few?
    Personally, I would like to see a mandatory, non-negotiable, plea-bargain proof sentence added to what ever the original crime was if a firearm was used in commission of that crime.

    Unfortunately, this I agree with whole heartily:
    But the sad fact is that for people without means, it is much easier to access firearms than it is the mental health system.

    I hope this changes with the idea that these types of events become fewer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally. I have been a gun owner for 36 years and I have NEVER once, not one time ever, violated a gun law. Why should I be penalized when I have done nothing wrong.

    The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns. His second act was illegal, murdering his mother. His third act was illegal, the horrific mass murders he committed at the school. Please tell me why if all those acts are clearly illegal the laws on the books already didn't stop them? Oh yeah, it is because criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law. New laws won't change that fact, no matter how much anyone wshes it to be so. Further, no laws will stop the mentally ill from breaking the law if their illness impairs their judgement or causes them to act out illegally.

    Use the laws on the books to punish criminals...it is really that simple.
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    I'm Canadian so I won't even pretend to understand the gun control debate in the US. But I pray for the first responders who will be haunted by this tragedy for the rest of their lives. And I pray for the families of the slain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally. I have been a gun owner for 36 years and I have NEVER once, not one time ever, violated a gun law. Why should I be penalized when I have done nothing wrong.

    The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns. His second act was illegal, murdering his mother. His third act was illegal, the horrific mass murders he committed at the school. Please tell me why if all those acts are clearly illegal the laws on the books already didn't stop them? Oh yeah, it is because criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law. New laws won't change that fact, no matter how much anyone wshes it to be so. Further, no laws will stop the mentally ill from breaking the law if their illness impairs their judgement or causes them to act out illegally.

    Use the laws on the books to punish criminals...it is really that simple.
    The greater problem, in my opinion, with this situation is that Adam Lanza had psychiatric issues that were not treated.

    I'm not going to blame his mother, as I'm sure that's not a good position to be in, having to deal a mentally ill child. I am going to blame our mental health system, which has been systematically torn apart.

    We have a kid where I live and volunteer that's much like what I've read about Adam Lanza. This kid reacts violently toward others, threatens to kill his mother, and such. His mother wants him institutionalized, but it would cost $4,000 per MONTH! That's outrageous!

    So, she and her husband are left to do what they can at home. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with the same issues, but I'm not holding my breath. I was on duty when a school shooting incident occurred where I work full-time, which happened to be in my district. Not a fun day, but fortunately his gun jammed and no one was injured.

    That leads to the other issue- schools and local jurisdictions taking this seriously. I know of too many schools that feel it won't happen there. That's not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ...The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns...
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
    And if a drunk driver didn't ever get a car he wouldn't kill innocent people with his car while drunk.

    Maybe if there was an affordable, easy to access, mental health option it never would have happened either.

    Why can't guys like you with flippant, simplistic answers, ever address the simple truth that even if it were possible to confiscate all legally owned guns (believe me it isn't) you will NEVER, EVER, get the guns that criminals possess. Further, once the criminals know that law abiding citizens can no longer defend themselves you WILL see a spike in crime. ALL violent crime spiked in Australia, murder, armed robbery, assault, and home invasions after the strict gun control laws were passed there.

    By the way, would his mother be any less dead if he had shot her with a pump shotgun? Of course not. It is not the gun it is the perpetrator. Punish criminals and identify and get proper help for the mentally ill. Those are realistic answers, not feel good knee jerk reactions that accomplish nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
    Hypotheticals and what-ifs as a basis of an argument, ok.
    What if, in the 12 years he was in the care of professional educators in our public education system, just one of them would have not ignored his reputed behavior?
    What if, in the years leading up to this, his mother would have followed through with what is being reported on seeking help?
    What if, for the sake of argument there was no gun to be had and like in China, he went to the school and sliced the kids up with a razor?
    What if, for the sake of argument he got in in his car and ran down the students while waiting for the buses?
    The sad truth, if they are that sick, there will be a will and a way.
    What if some people put the blame where it belongs, not on the gun, but the evil that wielded it?

    But we'll never know.
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    get the guns that criminals possess.
    Ah yes, but in this case.....he was NOT a criminal prior to getting the legally obtained gun.


    Hypotheticals and what-ifs as a basis of an argument, ok.
    Sorry, I'd rather deal with shootings as "what-ifs" than actual events.


    Why are some people so quick to focus on only the mental health issue? There are thousands of mentally ill people who are not going around shooting people with semi-automatic guns.

    There is no 1 single simple answer. But why not take some simple steps to begin to address the problems? Obviously, limiting semi-automatic weapons is only part of the solution. Obviously more health care is part of the solution. Why are people arguing for only part and not all parts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally.
    Precisely my previous point. Since the laws don't stop criminals, should we have no laws at all? What if I liked to drive my car at a 100 mph through my neighborhood. Is that a hobby I should be allowed?

    Will you still be able to enjoy your hobby if background checks are done for all firearms transactions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Precisely my previous point. Since the laws don't stop criminals, should we have no laws at all? What if I liked to drive my car at a 100 mph through my neighborhood. Is that a hobby I should be allowed?

    Will you still be able to enjoy your hobby if background checks are done for all firearms transactions?
    No one is saying no laws prevent crimes, what we're saying is that they prevent those of us whom believe in an organized system of governance from deciding we'll do whatever pleases us. Criminals will not fear gun bans or find it difficult to do harm. Heck even without guns people who are determined to kill multiple innocent people can find numerous effective methods, most of which are less intimate and allow them a better chance of escape.

    As for background checks and gun show loopholes and the like, I totally agree. I've owned firearms for all of my adult life and grew up with them before that, and I've never been a member of the NRA as I think they take things too far. Much like being a Republican, but staying clear of the Tea Party.
    As a law abiding citizens with no intention of shooting people, I see no reason not to register my firearms and ensure every legal gun is tracked from the moment it comes of the line to the time it's cut up or otherwise destroyed. This allows the same number of Americans to remain legally and gainfully employed, does not force law abiding citizens to give up the right to those bear arms as see as necessary to their way of life and the defense of their families. The NRA and many's thought that government troops or agents will come collect all the guns is totally whacked and discounts our system of government. Not to mention it's insulting to federal employees that people would think they'd be mindless gestapo like storm troopers.
    don120 likes this.

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