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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

  1. #401
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While I actually agree with you, we're sadly going to be in the minority overall. If we, like the anti-gun banners take hardlines and make zero compromise, only one side can win. I fear that without some reasonable measures the next step will be wider spread bans, which penalize the same law abiding citizens as registration.

    The registration is not a restriciton on your right to bear arms, merely a means to ensure proper tracing of firearms, it is the most sensible measure that doesn't adversily effect law abidijg gun owners. The teachers unions put up the same argument against being fingerprinted, stating this was a presumption of guilt, when in fact the courts and court of public opinion concluded that ti was a reasonable measure in preventing sex offenders from working in schools.
    Perhaps gun owners pay closer attention to history than the compromisers and gun grabbers do.

    * In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. This doesn't include the 30 million 'Uncle Joe' starved to death in the Ukraine.

    * In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    * Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, leaving a populace unable to defend itself against the Gestapo and SS. Hundreds of thousands died as a result.

    * China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    * Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    * Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. The total dead are said to be 2-3 million

    * Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 1-2 million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    * Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million at a bare minimum.

    * Gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results:

    Australia-wide, homicides went up 3.2 percent

    Australia-wide, assaults went up 8.6 percent

    Australia-wide, armed robberies went up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)

    In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    In fairness, that's taking it a little far. Basically what he's saying is that if it's a semi-auto designed for military use, it's an assault weapon. That would exclude nearly any hunting rifle, including the Ruger Mini-14 (which Obama has listed in his previous plans) and all .22's that I know of.

    If you take the first part and combine "assault" and "rifle", then a number of rifles would fit that description. Muskets, bolt actions, etc. would be defined as an assault rifle.

    If we're going to put the military useage test into play, we need to add a number of shotguns (including pumps) and handguns (including the 1911).
    There are several civilian bolt action rifles and pump shotguns that were adopted by the military. Some soldiers even had privately owned firearms shipped to them and used them in combat. I'm going by his definitions. He split "assault" and "rifle". His definition included any rifle, not just semi-auto. He keeps spouting that Springfields and Enfields are assault weapons (they are bolt actions).

    My point is that terminology and definitions are extremely important when discussing any form of gun control, contrary to what SC thinks. If not, any new laws can be interpreted or twisted into any direction they please. This could go either way. It can become all inclusive, banning almost any firearm, or loopholes can be exploited, allowing many more firearms to stay legal than what is intended.
    Last edited by tbzep; 01-12-2013 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Perhaps gun owners pay closer attention to history than the compromisers and gun grabbers do.
    This post goes hand in hand with the Russian Pravda article I linked in post #366.

  4. #404
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Australia-wide, homicides went up 3.2 percent
    They had 30 homicides by guns last year. I'll take those numbers over the US rate anytime.
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  5. #405
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You wish to restrict firearms accessories, like high capacity magazines. You have railed on and on about about assault rifles, where your definition is NOT anything more than the anti-gun crowd's definition. If you are not anti-gun why arfe you nothing more than a mouthpiece for everything they say?
    Wanting magazine limits is not taking away the right to bear arms. The definition I cited was out of the American Heritage Dictionary. I had no idea they are part of the anti-gun crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If not wanting my rights whittled away by a government that if it can't get its agenda passed by the legislature resorts to executive action to pass unpopular controls on the citizenry makes me paranoid...then I am okay with being called paranoid by YOU, an anti-gun rights person.
    Once again, you only prove your position is extreme to the point where any discussion is viewed as completely anti-gun.
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  6. #406
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Would it no be much simpler (and a smaller list) to have a "restricted from owning a firearm list"? If someone has mental issues, put them on the list. If they're a criminal, put them on the list. If they for any reason whatsoever have no business with a gun, put them on the list.
    How do you intend to determine if someone has mental issues? An eval at the time of purchase with continuing checkups?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Gun registration isn't going to do a damn thing. There are enough weapons out there that aren't going to be registered or are brought in from outside the country that they'll never be able to track them.
    If you believe it doesn't matter then there should be no opposition to the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I'm not necessarily against registering guns, but I'm to the point I'm sick of having to jump through hoops due to laws created from a knee-jerk reaction to an incident created by someone who doesn't care about the law and isn't going to follow it. Making new laws only law-abiding citizens are going to follow to "keep an honest man honest" is the last step.

    Registering firearms is like putting a no tresspassing sign up. It doesn't do jack unless the tresspasser fears the reprecussions. Criminals don't fear the reprecussions, because the reprecussions are so light.
    See above response.
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  7. #407
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    Every single solitary unmounted rifle ever sold in world history, from a .177 single shot air rifle (pellet/BB gun) to a Barrett .50BMG M82 fits your definition.

    Your definition of an assault rifle would mean that every single rifle in the USA would become illegal with ratification of any form of an assault rifle ban. That's why FyredUp's definition is not only more accurate, but that kind of specifics is needed for any legislation put down on paper, if you truly aren't totally anti-gun.
    I believe the definitions claimed by FyredUp is too narrow for reasons I'm not going to delineate again. I've pointed out the rationale for referring to several semi-auto weapons as assault rifles. More importantly the people pushing total confiscation aren't concerned about narrow definitions by gun enthusiasts. What they see is a crazy person mowing down a bunch of six year olds with a weapon that resembles the type of weapon they see in the hands of soldiers patrolling in Afghanistan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More importantly the people pushing total confiscation aren't concerned about narrow definitions by gun enthusiasts.
    I thought you weren't anti-gun? Your definition in earlier posts included bolt actions from WWI, and that is about as un-narrow as it gets.

    From post #101
    Besides, I could easily make the argument that GI's carried a semi-auto assault rifle in WW II and Korea. Prior to that, the main assault rifle used by the American military was a bolt action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I believe the definitions claimed by FyredUp is too narrow for reasons I'm not going to delineate again. I've pointed out the rationale for referring to several semi-auto weapons as assault rifles. More importantly the people pushing total confiscation aren't concerned about narrow definitions by gun enthusiasts. What they see is a crazy person mowing down a bunch of six year olds with a weapon that resembles the type of weapon they see in the hands of soldiers patrolling in Afghanistan.
    Ok, here we go.....

    How about the fact that drunk drivers kill more kds in this country every year than guns ever will. I propose that every single car in the United States be retrofitted with a Ignition Breathalyzer so that we will never have a drunk driver on the road again. That will save far more children's lives than any gun legislation or executive order being discussed ever will.

    Also given that drownings kill far more children each year that will ever be killed by guns I would like to propose that all backyard swimming pools meet stringent safety and security requirements, must be registered and inspected yearly to insure that they still comply. In addition all parents must pass lifeguard training as well as CPR and renew bi-yearly so that children will have immediate medical care if they do drown. If you want to save kids lives you should have no problem with trampling on personal property rights like you wish to trample on gun rights.

    Given that bike accidents also kill far more children than gun accidents in the street yearly, I would like to ban all bikes from any public street and restrict their use to designated bike parks and trails, and all bikes will be registered.

    We could also talk about charging parents for neglect or possibly manslaughter if a child dies in a fire in a home without an adequate number of working smoke detectors as hundreds more die that way each year compared to guns. Same with four wheelers. Same with car seats. Should i continue?

    You keep bringing up Sandy Hook as the impetus for this zealous left wing assualt on a Constitutional right. As unfortunate as it was it was one incident. I could sit here and talk about other MVA, drowning and fire incidents where multiple children were killed in one swoop as well, but nobody seems to be demanding that we eliminate backyard swimming pools and beaches, travel by car or living in a home.

    Sorry, but you can't even define by gun nomenclature the weapons you and many other left wing anti-gun nuts want to ban.

    Guns, including those evil semi-automatic and even fully automatic weapons are an American right guaranteed by the Constitution.Doing anything, including banning large quantity magazines is nothing but a pile of left wing liberal crap.
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  10. #410
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    LA, it's funny how you keep harping on every American's right to own a weapon...yet you freely admit there are exclusions/restrictions on that. Adding more exclusions/restrictions does not change the Constitution.

    As to cars killing people....cars are a necessity in many people's lives. Guns, as stated by posters here, are largely for hobby. Difference there.


    Can give many reasons why a car is needed.
    Have yet to hear a reason for some types of guns to be needed.

    PS - I'd be ok with that breathalyzer thing too.
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  11. #411
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Wanting magazine limits is not taking away the right to bear arms. The definition I cited was out of the American Heritage Dictionary. I had no idea they are part of the anti-gun crowd.

    The problem is the people you are supporting to make those decisions are so extreme that one of them has my 10 shot .22lr semi-automatic rifle listed as an assault rifle. THAT is the problem with your inability to understand my concern, and obviously the concern of other actual gun owners here, with vague, incorrect definitions of firearms. I much prefer having the proper information when discussing something and I also prefer talking to people, whether they agree or disagree with me, that care enough to be correct also. Try it, you might like it


    Once again, you only prove your position is extreme to the point where any discussion is viewed as completely anti-gun.

    I prefer to be thought of, by you anyways, as an extremist rather than a wolf in sheep's clothing sell out like you. Not a single thing you have said about being a gun owner and defender of the 2nd Amendment is supported by what you actually say about bans and gun control.
    Just admit it...it will be so cathartic.
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  12. #412
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I believe the definitions claimed by FyredUp is too narrow for reasons I'm not going to delineate again. I've pointed out the rationale for referring to several semi-auto weapons as assault rifles. More importantly the people pushing total confiscation aren't concerned about narrow definitions by gun enthusiasts. What they see is a crazy person mowing down a bunch of six year olds with a weapon that resembles the type of weapon they see in the hands of soldiers patrolling in Afghanistan.
    Yet, you are wrong in your definition and no amount of quoting sources that are incorrect make you any more right.

    The one point you said here that is right is "What they see is a crazy person mowing down a bunch of six year olds." Let me ask you this, what does the rifle have to do with this incident anyways? If the cops found it in his truck, how could he have used it inside the school? The other point here is what if he had used a hunting shotgun filled with 00 buck shot for his shooting spree. Would you support banning shotguns? Or would you be calling them assault shotguns?
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  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While I actually agree with you, we're sadly going to be in the minority overall. If we, like the anti-gun banners take hardlines and make zero compromise, only one side can win. I fear that without some reasonable measures the next step will be wider spread bans, which penalize the same law abiding citizens as registration.

    The registration is not a restriciton on your right to bear arms, merely a means to ensure proper tracing of firearms, it is the most sensible measure that doesn't adversily effect law abidijg gun owners. The teachers unions put up the same argument against being fingerprinted, stating this was a presumption of guilt, when in fact the courts and court of public opinion concluded that ti was a reasonable measure in preventing sex offenders from working in schools.
    I understand where you're coming from, but at some point the government has to quit making law-abiding citizens jump through hoops to practice their rights and priveledges. This is especially the truth when the unlawful are bypassing the system at will. Enforce the freaking laws we have already before we start cramming more laws down our throats that the criminals are going to ignore along with the ones already in place.

    All the while, our gov't is ignoring the bigger problem- there are some crazy bastards that simply have no business in society and need institutionalized or some other action taken to make sure they stay in treatment and remain harmless.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Please cite a credible source for this! That information alone, if true would blow this whole assault rifle ban out of the water. If the media and/or law enforcement participated in a sham to help push an anti-gun agenda there will be a huge backlash. I've seen this "factoid" thrown around by a few people based on some reporters' early quote that a Bushmaster was found in Lanza's car, but this has been refuted by "officials", thus it's a pretty big deal. We can't wish it true, it has to be actual fact.
    It depends on where you get the definition. One definition is that an "assault rifle" is one with a selectible fire switch. However, the legal definition is going to be whatever Congress determines it to be. In 1994 it was a weapon that featured two characteristics on the list within the law or had a certain name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Have yet to hear a reason for some types of guns to be needed.
    Which guns? Semi-automatic centerfire rifles? Predator hunting and self-defense. One of the favorite weapons of farmers/ranchers in my area is the Ruger Mini 14. It's used to eliminate predators and nuisance animals for the most part. Get a ****ed off wild dog at you while you're checking cattle and I guarantee you'll want the range and firing rate of that semi-auto rather than a bolt or a pistol.

    The Mini 14 is one of the guns on Obama's ban list.

    An AR-15 is the same type of rifle with only cosmetic differences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ok, here we go.....

    How about the fact that drunk drivers kill more kds in this country every year than guns ever will. I propose that every single car in the United States be retrofitted with a Ignition Breathalyzer so that we will never have a drunk driver on the road again. That will save far more children's lives than any gun legislation or executive order being discussed ever will.

    Also given that drownings kill far more children each year that will ever be killed by guns I would like to propose that all backyard swimming pools meet stringent safety and security requirements, must be registered and inspected yearly to insure that they still comply. In addition all parents must pass lifeguard training as well as CPR and renew bi-yearly so that children will have immediate medical care if they do drown. If you want to save kids lives you should have no problem with trampling on personal property rights like you wish to trample on gun rights.

    Given that bike accidents also kill far more children than gun accidents in the street yearly, I would like to ban all bikes from any public street and restrict their use to designated bike parks and trails, and all bikes will be registered.

    We could also talk about charging parents for neglect or possibly manslaughter if a child dies in a fire in a home without an adequate number of working smoke detectors as hundreds more die that way each year compared to guns. Same with four wheelers. Same with car seats. Should i continue?

    You keep bringing up Sandy Hook as the impetus for this zealous left wing assualt on a Constitutional right. As unfortunate as it was it was one incident. I could sit here and talk about other MVA, drowning and fire incidents where multiple children were killed in one swoop as well, but nobody seems to be demanding that we eliminate backyard swimming pools and beaches, travel by car or living in a home.

    Sorry, but you can't even define by gun nomenclature the weapons you and many other left wing anti-gun nuts want to ban.

    Guns, including those evil semi-automatic and even fully automatic weapons are an American right guaranteed by the Constitution.Doing anything, including banning large quantity magazines is nothing but a pile of left wing liberal crap.
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  16. #416
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ok, here we go.....

    How about the fact that drunk drivers kill more kds in this country every year than guns ever will. I propose that every single car in the United States be retrofitted with a Ignition Breathalyzer so that we will never have a drunk driver on the road again. That will save far more children's lives than any gun legislation or executive order being discussed ever will.
    Stricter laws have been passed on DUIs with stronger enforcement coupled with breathalyzers installed in cars for repeat offenders with campaigns promoting sober driving to the point where the incidence of DUIs has dropped dramatically in the last 30 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Also given that drownings kill far more children each year that will ever be killed by guns I would like to propose that all backyard swimming pools meet stringent safety and security requirements, must be registered and inspected yearly to insure that they still comply. In addition all parents must pass lifeguard training as well as CPR and renew bi-yearly so that children will have immediate medical care if they do drown. If you want to save kids lives you should have no problem with trampling on personal property rights like you wish to trample on gun rights.
    The difference is that it is pretty difficult for a crazy person to grab more than one child and shove them into a pool till they drown. Then repeat the process numerous times. Realizing the pro-gun crowd has reading comprehension challenged, maybe you can point me to where I've advocated the elimination of private gun ownership. I've yet to advocate any such thing. I've not even advocated eliminating the possession of semi-auto weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Given that bike accidents also kill far more children than gun accidents in the street yearly, I would like to ban all bikes from any public street and restrict their use to designated bike parks and trails, and all bikes will be registered.
    When was the last time a crazy person smuggled a kid's bike into a crowded theater and killed 30 people with it? I always enjoy reading these false equivalencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We could also talk about charging parents for neglect or possibly manslaughter if a child dies in a fire in a home without an adequate number of working smoke detectors as hundreds more die that way each year compared to guns. Same with four wheelers. Same with car seats. Should i continue?
    When was the last time someone tried to shoot a congressional representative with a smoke detector?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You keep bringing up Sandy Hook as the impetus for this zealous left wing assualt on a Constitutional right. As unfortunate as it was it was one incident. I could sit here and talk about other MVA, drowning and fire incidents where multiple children were killed in one swoop as well, but nobody seems to be demanding that we eliminate backyard swimming pools and beaches, travel by car or living in a home.
    And I've pointed out how your comparisons are invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorry, but you can't even define by gun nomenclature the weapons you and many other left wing anti-gun nuts want to ban.
    Actually I've not defined it according to the nomenclature that is accepted by pro-gun nuts who believe the status quo shouldn't be changed. I did define according to sources that it would seem are not read by pro-gunners. The dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guns, including those evil semi-automatic and even fully automatic weapons are an American right guaranteed by the Constitution.Doing anything, including banning large quantity magazines is nothing but a pile of left wing liberal crap.
    Once again you reveal your stupidity by spouting something that is a complete falsehood. The Supreme Court (you might have heard about them) has ruled the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute. In fact there are certain weapons (aka arms) one is not allowed to bear as a citizen. And numerous laws have been passed to restrict gun ownership that have been upheld.

    But......since you believe the Bill of Rights are absolutes, then you would agree the Journal News was well within their rights under the 1st Amendment to publish the names and addresses of gun owners in Westchester and Rockland counties in upstate NY. Right? Especially since I could easily make the case that exceptions were made to the 1st Amendment before the ink was dry.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-13-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    I thought you weren't anti-gun? Your definition in earlier posts included bolt actions from WWI, and that is about as un-narrow as it gets.

    From post #101
    I did say that in the context of showing how the term assault rifle is a moving target (no pun intended) and is not the absolute as accepted by gun enthusiasts.

    I'll ask you since no one else will answer. Where have I advocated the elimination of private gun ownership? Since you are willing to do the research on my previous posts I'm sure it will be a snap for you to find.
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    Post deleted by user.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-13-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I prefer to be thought of, by you anyways, as an extremist rather than a wolf in sheep's clothing sell out like you. Not a single thing you have said about being a gun owner and defender of the 2nd Amendment is supported by what you actually say about bans and gun control.

    Just admit it...it will be so cathartic.
    I will be more than willing to admit that you are blinded to the fact that I've never advocated the elimination of private firearms ownership. Yet you somehow believe that restricting magazine capacity and eliminating gun shows makes me anti-gun. If you believe those two beliefs make me completely anti-gun I could care less. With the two items I support, Americans will still be able to purchase and enjoy firearms and shooting sports.

    It is you who is the wolf in sheep's clothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yet, you are wrong in your definition and no amount of quoting sources that are incorrect make you any more right.
    Funny. Words only mean what YOU believe they mean. I'll keep my fingers crossed you never run afoul of the legal system.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The one point you said here that is right is "What they see is a crazy person mowing down a bunch of six year olds." Let me ask you this, what does the rifle have to do with this incident anyways? If the cops found it in his truck, how could he have used it inside the school? The other point here is what if he had used a hunting shotgun filled with 00 buck shot for his shooting spree. Would you support banning shotguns? Or would you be calling them assault shotguns?
    Because had Lanza been using a front loading musket, many more of his victims would still be alive.

    What type of shotgun? Single shot? Double barrel (either side by side or over/under)? Pump action? Semi-auto? The largest magazine capacity I've seen is eight rounds. Maybe ten max. Not a good comparison to the weapon Lanza used. You just made my case for limiting magazine capacity. Lanza would have had to reload far more frequently had he used that type of weapon. Giving the good guys time to either overwhelm him or run away. Something they didn't have with a 30 round interval.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-13-2013 at 10:59 AM.
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  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcjack View Post
    I could only hope that if someone is trying to kill me they are going to run after me while trying to set me on fire.

    This is yet another ridiculous comparison to a semi-auto high powered rifle with a 30 round magazine.
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