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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How many crazy people have run through a school with a hammer and killed over two dozen people? How many crazy people have smuggled a hammer into a crowded theater and used it to kill two dozen people and injure about five times that many? Yet another ridiculous analogy. But since you claim to only argue with facts, could you show me the source of that statement regarding hammers? Heck, I'll even let you expand it to blunt objects.
    What part of my statement isn't factual?

    My issue with your position is that you are very hungup on the "mass murder" and "at one time" thing.
    My issue with your position is the analogy is ridiculous.

    The bottom line is, when looking at the cases of death, is not when they died but how many. The fact that on very rare occasions a large group of people die from guns is quite irrelevant in the discussion.
    The bottom line is that semi-auto weapons can cause a lot deaths at one time. Something that is virtually impossible with a hammer. It's about capabilities.

    As an example, a couple of years ago we had 6 kids die in a single drowning incident on the red River between Bossier City and Shreveport. certainly it was tragic, but was it any more significant than if 6 kids had died in six incidents? No. Should it matter in the discussion on water safety and how dangerous it is to swim in that river whether 6 kids died at one time or in 6 separate incidents? No.
    It certainly is tragic. My thoughts go out to those parents. However, drowning is an accepted consequence when one gets into a body of water. Even if it is a bathtub. Being shot to death by a crazy person is not (or was not) the typical expectation of a parent when they send their child to school in the morning or when one sits down to watch a movie. At least not where I live.

    Another example is that on very rare occasions, much like mass shootings, a significant number of people are killed in a single bus accident. Is there immediate discussion about banning the use of buses because there is a possibility for a rare mass-fatality accident? No. Same with the car accident that kills the entire family of 5 or 6. In the long run it's truly irrelevant if 3 people died in 4 bus accidents or 12 died in 1.
    See above response. Change swimming and drowning to driving and fatal MVA.

    I won't even discuss airplane crashes, as following the "at one time thing" we should ban airplanes because of that possibility.
    See above response. Change swimming and drowning to flying and crashing.

    The simple fact is I'm not hung up on Aurora's or Sandy Hook's or Virginia Tech's. mass shootings are statically extremely rare events and to use incidents of that type as a basis for abridge the Constitutional rights of Americans to own large capacity magazines is simply foolish.
    Your child wasn't one of those affected. There is no Constitutional right being abridged by limiting magazine capacity. That belief is just foolish.
    You are back to making stupid arguments. I had hope for you earlier. But that was quickly dashed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    http://www.ijreview.com/2013/01/3020...town-shooting/
    Huge press, pomp, and circumstance to ban "assault rifles", using Sandy Hook as an example-one wasn't even used.
    4 handguns; let's be honest, he could have caused that much carnage with 4 revolvers with 6 rounds each. So how is a ban on high-capacity magazines going to help?
    By giving others time to get away or rush him. Something the principal was doing when he shot her. Had he only had six bullets he might have been fumbling around searching for another handgun after emptying the first.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Nothing more then uneducated, knee jerk reactions from the left. Hell, in New York, in their rush to utopia, their latest gun laws may have failed to exempt law enforcement.
    Not difficult to amend laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Where does it say I don't have that right? You see it is that easy to invalidate your baseless statement.
    It doesn't. Our legal system isn't designed to prove a negative. Laws are specific to what is allowed. Making everything else allowable. Please proceed with that thought process and I hope you never try to use it as a defense if you're caught breaking one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    And you believe limiting magazine capacity for law abiding citizens will deter crime. You're aware that criminals are criminals because they don't follow the law right?
    Once again your solution is to do nothing since you believe nothing is perfect. Then let's get rid of all laws since that doesn't stop people from breaking them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I know that doesn't fit your agenda, but facts are facts.
    The facts are the status quo is unacceptable to many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    It's okay. He tried. We'll give him a Bulldog Award. That way he'll feel he's still special.
    Read my response to him on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Never mind, obviously above your comprehension level.
    No point being made. Hence there was nothing to comprehend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Where was it written that one doesn't? Why should my rights as a law abiding citizen be limited because there are crazy people in the world who already break law upon law to acquire weapons to commit crimes? I legally purchase and go through the proper channels to obtain firearms. Why should MY rights be limited?
    See earlier comments on the law and those who break them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I think you should take your own advice as far as reading comprehension is concerned. Learn how to.
    I think you should learn how to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Where does it say I can't?
    See earlier response to FyredUp regarding the law and its intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Good try. Appreciate the effort. Gold Star for SCfire.
    No sweat. Thanks.
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    This will be my absolutely last post on this thread. I'll let one of you (or all of you) have the last word.

    It's been fun watching those with contrary opinions dissolve into name calling, firehouse lawyering, rants, outrageous comparative analogies, and syllogistic delusion.

    You all have a good weekend.

    See you on another topic.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-19-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I doubt the parents of those children at Sandy Hook, Columbine, or VA Tech would agree with you.
    Really? You think the parents of these victims honestly compare the murderers of their family are comparable to law-abiding citizens?


    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The apples to apples comparison would be the number of people killed in a mass murder (defined as four or more at one time) with knives and baseball bats. If you want to use all blunt objects then one must also use all firearms. In which case that number isn't remotely comparable given the amount of people killed with firearms every year versus any other method.
    Of course it is, because you like to move the target. Regardless, shall we take a look at some of the mass murders in our history?

    Shall I do the research into mass murders for you? Want to bet how many used assualt rifles? I've found one, other than those named here, that occurred in 1982. The guy was a prison guard who just got fired and used his AR to kill his family.

    Some other examples- Jim Jones who used cyanide, several folks who committed murder/suicide on airplanes, several arsonists, several who drove vehicles into crowds, things like that. Very few have used "assault rifles" and very few appear to have used rifles capable of a 10-round mag.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    A big problem when you are on the wrong end of one.
    Odds are I won't be on the end of one. At least not the working end. The odds are considerably better I'll be on the bad end of a knife or bat than an "assault rifle".

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I've never advocated getting rid of them. I've only advocated limiting the capacity of magazines. It's others on this board believe I'm opposed to owning semi-auto firearms.
    You sure do play the Devil's advocate well, then. You also have yet to give any indication how 10-round mags would have made any difference in any of these shootings.

    Lanze swapped mags several times during his rampage. He dropped half-empty mags performing the tactical-reloading he used on his first-person shooter games prior to entering a new room.

    You had better be damn quick and damn close if you want to take advantage of any even half-capable shooter while changing out mags.

    Ban the large capacity weapons and you'll make very little difference. Give me a pair of cargo pants and I'll carry at least 100 rounds in mags, more depending on caliber, along with several weapons. Give me a tactical vest like these guys were wearing, and I can probalby get 1000+ along with multiple weapons to go with it.

    This AWB and mag restriction is nothing but an opportunity for the Left to push an agenda. What's scary is that they avoid the real problem that rings in all of these mass murders- mental health issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    By giving others time to get away or rush him. Something the principal was doing when he shot her. Had he only had six bullets he might have been fumbling around searching for another handgun after emptying the first.

    Maybe, definitely a hypothetical, but all for naught as she was the 2nd or 3rd one shot. Silly facts destroying another baseless point.
    Not difficult to amend laws.
    Maybe, but it shows the results of irrational, uneducated, knee jerk reactions.
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    What I like is that the new gun law that they are trying to pass in Delaware expands the Gun Free Zone around schools to 1000 from 500 ft.

    I'm sure that that will stop the next school shooter.

    Idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What I like is that the new gun law that they are trying to pass in Delaware expands the Gun Free Zone around schools to 1000 from 500 ft.

    I'm sure that that will stop the next school shooter.

    Idiots.
    Somebody will get to claim they did something, no matter how obtuse. Thats all the idiots care about. Typical of polititians.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This will be my absolutely last post on this thread. I'll let one of you (or all of you) have the last word.
    Thank you. Now the adults can discuss the issue and use facts instead of emotional responses.

    It's been fun watching those with contrary opinions dissolve into name calling, firehouse lawyering, rants, outrageous comparative analogies, and syllogistic delusion.
    Kind of like you do on any other thread? No ones analogies have been near as foolish as yours, and what you fail to acknowledge is that Fyredup, Myself, SPFD, Catch, and even LA, keep coming back and beating you with facts.

    You all have a good weekend.
    You as well.

    See you on another topic.
    Hopefully you'll stick to topics where you know what you're talking about.
    Pro 2A rallies in each state at noon today, most of them are at the state capitol.
    Just in case anyone was free and wanted something to do today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It doesn't. Our legal system isn't designed to prove a negative. Laws are specific to what is allowed. Making everything else allowable. Please proceed with that thought process and I hope you never try to use it as a defense if you're caught breaking one.
    The fact is YOU and the entire anti-gun crowd, are adding wording to the Second Ammendment.

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
    Given the FACT that civilians were the militia in the time of the writing of the Consitution, and in fact if we were attacked today, would once again become the militia, well other than the anti-gun crowd and the appeasers, nothing has changed.

    It also quite clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." It would seem despite what the courts and Congress have done in the past any law they pass restricting firearms ownership is unconstitutional. It doesn't say go ahead and whittle away these rights.

    It doesn't say have a political front, the anti-gunners, can decide they have the power to infringe on other's rights. Read it and realize that any laws passed and any further attempts are unconstitutional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This will be my absolutely last post on this thread. I'll let one of you (or all of you) have the last word.

    It's been fun watching those with contrary opinions dissolve into name calling, firehouse lawyering, rants, outrageous comparative analogies, and syllogistic delusion.

    You all have a good weekend.

    See you on another topic.
    You are the master of outrageous analogies.

    Comparing gun laws to the manufacture of potato chips.

    Comparing the Travon martin shooting to Sandy Hook.

    Comparing explosives to firearms.

    And on and on and on....

    You are the stupid analogy master.
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    scfire86: Once again your solution is to do nothing since you believe nothing is perfect. Then let's get rid of all laws since that doesn't stop people from breaking them.
    Once again YOUR reading comprehension is the one that needs questioning. Not a single one of us here that opposes useless, knee jerk, emotional, feel good legislation that in reality will not solve a damn thing has proposed do absolutely nothing.

    The proposals have included mandatory sentencing for crimes involving the use of firearms, whether they were fired or not, a stricter background check, registration (which I personally oppose), waiting periods for rifles and shotguns, and a complete overhaul of the mental health system in this country so that potentially violent mentally ill persons get necessary treatment before they go off the deep end.

    The pathetically sad part is you and Bones came on here spouting absolute nonsense about guns laws and were brought to task by myself and others. That neither one of you could admit your ignorance on that topic speaks volumes about you both and will, for me personally, jade how I approach anything either of you ever post here on FH.com from now on.


    Further you running away from the beating you got here doesn't make you anymore right than the first time you posted erroneous information on this topic. Although if I were you I would run away too because no matter how many left wing anti-gun talking points you post you will still be wrong.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-19-2013 at 03:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Somebody will get to claim they did something, no matter how obtuse. Thats all the idiots care about. Typical of polititians.....
    Exactly. It's not about finding a true solution, it's about making sure to get your picture in the paper doing something, no matter what it is, and getting to push your agenda along the way.

    I love what I'm reading about Obama's Biden-led task-force. That wasn't about finding solutions, it was about an agenda and giving the appearance of giving a sh$%.

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    The truth is all the noise about doing something to stop the violence is a smoke screen to the real agenda, eliminating private ownership of guns. It is nothing new, the left and the anti-gun crowd have been trying for decades.

    This is exactly why I have trouble trying to attach myself to either the reds or the blues when it comes to politics, neither one of them represents me and what I believe in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The truth is all the noise about doing something to stop the violence is a smoke screen to the real agenda, eliminating private ownership of guns. It is nothing new, the left and the anti-gun crowd have been trying for decades.

    This is exactly why I have trouble trying to attach myself to either the reds or the blues when it comes to politics, neither one of them represents me and what I believe in.
    I consider myself "politically purple"...
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    The words of the Founding Fathers:

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    Their intent for the 2nd Ammendment seems cystal clear to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Actually, I gave you that information. Post 414...
    No, you gave me information on the "one of the favorite weapons of choice." Is that the only option? Is that the only way? If the answer is no....its not a need....it's a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Care to discuss gun laws again? You appeared so utterly clueless before regarding fully automatic weapons and the law I would be happy to help educate you further.
    Clueless, yet you were the one telling me to work on getting my state laws to the level of yours....and yet mine are already higher. Why don't you work to bring your state up to my states level?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What I like is that the new gun law that they are trying to pass in Delaware expands the Gun Free Zone around schools to 1000 from 500 ft.

    I'm sure that that will stop the next school shooter.

    Idiots.
    Happening near me too. Reason being that someone was hunting in woods next to a school and the gun shots caused a panic. Expanding the Gun Free Zone will help move the hunters farther away.

    PS - has nothing to do with stopping the next school shooter.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Clueless, yet you were the one telling me to work on getting my state laws to the level of yours....and yet mine are already higher. Why don't you work to bring your state up to my states level?
    Because law abiding citizens don't need more laws to restrict their rights. Actually I prefer to think your state needs to be returned to the rights that my state has versus mine being dragged down to a lesser set of rights like your state has.



    Requirements for Purchasing Machine Guns, Silencers, or Short Barreled Rifles/Shotguns



    It is a common misconception that machine guns, silencers (suppressors), sawed-off shotguns, and short barreled rifles are illegal to own. This is entirely untrue. Your Constitutional Right to Bear Arms is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The National Firearms Act of 1934 (Title 26, USC Chapter 53) and the Gun Control Act of 1968 make formal provisions for the private ownership of these weapons. Individuals (ie. non-firearms dealer or police dept.) are allowed to purchase machineguns that are classified as "Transferable", that is, weapons that were registered as machine guns prior to May of 1986. Since there are a finite number of these weapons, prices are continually rising. Silencers, Sawed-off Shotguns, and Short Barreled Rifles are still in current productions, so the prices of these items remains fairly constant. For an Individual the requirements to purchase these weapons are:
    1. Be a US Citizen at least 21 years old
    2. Be of sane mind
    3. Not an abuser of drugs or alcohol
    4. Have never been convicted of a felony
    5. Pay a $200.00 Federal Transfer Tax on each weapon purchased. (This is a one-time tax, not a yearly tax)
    6. Fill out BATF Form 4 and submit to ATF. This involves getting a Signature of the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" in your area signifying that he has no knowledge that you will use your weapon for anything other that lawful purposes
    7. Have your fingerprints/photographs taken and submitted to BATF with the above application.


    After approximately 90-120 days, during which time the FBI runs your prints to verify your identity, etc., the transfer will come back approved. Only after the transfer is approved can you take possession of your item. It is interesting to note that since 1934, when machine guns, silencers, short shotguns/rifles began to be regulated, there has only been one case of a legally owned weapon being used in a crime - and the user was a police officer.

    In areas where a person cannot acquire a Law Enforcement Signature because these people would rather violate your rights than let you own one of these items, there is another way. BATF allows Corporations and Trusts to acquire machine guns, silencers, etc. without having to complete the Law Enforcement Certification part of the form. If you have your own Corporation, or you are an Officer in a Corporation, the Corporation can acquire these items, and you, as a Corporate Officer, can keep the item at your home, take it to the range shooting, etc. just as if the item were registered to you. If the Corporation ever dissolves, the item must be transferred out of the Corporation to another individual or Corporation (or Dealer). Because a Corporation is not a person, an FBI fingerprint check is not required which reduces the transfer approval time to about 30 days. Trusts can be set up by an Attorney and will allow you to transfer the item to the Trust, and will not require the Law Enforcement signature on your paperwork.

    Many states allow the ownership of legally registered machine guns, silencers, short-barreled rifles/shotguns. At International Police Supply, we are committed to providing you with the highest quality products and services at the most reasonable prices. Please feel free to e-mail us to discuss your firearms needs or to ask us any questions about acquiring specialized weapons or accessories.

    Machineguns are ILLEGAL for individuals in the following States:
    DE, DC, HI, NY, WA ; Class 3 dealer only in : CA, IL, IO, KS, MI, NJ, RI, SC


    Silencers are ILLEGAL for individuals in the following States (see map below):

    DE, DC, HI, IL, MS, MT, NY, NJ, RI; Class 3 dealers only in : CA, KS, MO, MN
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    An interesting take on today. There are so many laws that everyone is a criminal which induces guilt for all.

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=2203713

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you gave me information on the "one of the favorite weapons of choice." Is that the only option? Is that the only way? If the answer is no....its not a need....it's a choice.
    I see, we're going to play the "need" game?

    The semi-automatic rifle is the best and most efficient weapon for the purposes I listed. There are times that 10 rounds isn't going to do it in those situations.

    If we were a nation build on "need", then we wouldn't have near the toys on our apparatus, would we? We wouldn't have so many pick-ups on the road, because only those that "need" them would have them. We wouldn't have restaurants, because those aren't a "need".

    The fact still remains there are several situations where a semi-automatic rifle is the best choice for a certain purpose. If we were truly worried about senseless deaths, the gov't would crack down on repeat offenders, mental health (suicide by guns far outnumbers homocides by any form and there are more that use other means to commit suicide. That doesn't even touch on mentally ill killing others.), drunk driving, and a slew of other problems.

    This is about an agenda and politicians trying to appear like they're taking action to gain favor with the public (voters). It's the same reason a number of Democrats won't vote for an AWB- they're afraid of not getting re-elected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you gave me information on the "one of the favorite weapons of choice." Is that the only option? Is that the only way? If the answer is no....its not a need....it's a choice.
    I love the "NEED" argument. I get it from people all the time. What do you NEED guns for, what do you NEED that particular gun for? I agree with Catch 22 and all he said is his comment to you.

    The fact is NO WHERE in the Constitution or any laws of the United States that I am aware of that ownership of anything by private citizens shall be based solely on whether you NEED it or not. If that was the case so many things would disappear from our daily lives. We surely don't NEED TV, especially 100 square inch flat screen HD TVs. We surely don't NEED snowmobiles or ATVs for recreational use, people could walk or snow shoe to be out in mature. We surely don't NEED video games, iPods, Smart phones, computers, PDAs, and all the other electronic gadgetry that people carry around. We for damn sure don't NEED the McMansions of 4000 to 10,000 plus square feet people live in. Most people have no NEED for a 4 door 4 wheel drive pick up truck or a decked out SUV.

    So you see if we only base what we get to have on some arbitrary standard of need, and who gets to decide what you or I NEED?
    Chenzo and BigGriffC12 like this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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