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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

  1. #41
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    Not at all, but it does prove the fact that all those laws on the books concerning guns/gun crime are no different.
    As far as bans, what has been successful; drugs, prohibition, prostitution to name a few?
    Personally, I would like to see a mandatory, non-negotiable, plea-bargain proof sentence added to what ever the original crime was if a firearm was used in commission of that crime.

    Unfortunately, this I agree with whole heartily:
    But the sad fact is that for people without means, it is much easier to access firearms than it is the mental health system.

    I hope this changes with the idea that these types of events become fewer.
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  2. #42
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So your belief is that since we can't prevent all of these types of occurrences we shouldn't try to ban any of them?

    All the traffic laws in the world aren't gonna stop drunk driving
    All the criminal laws in the world aren't gonna stop crime
    All the food sanitation laws in the world aren't gonna stop food poisoning
    All the immunization laws in the world aren't gonna stop disease
    All the environmental regulations in the world aren't gonna stop pollution
    All the abortion laws in the world aren't gonna stop abortions

    Should we do away with all the laws pertaining to the types of crimes I listed since they have yet to get rid of all those types of crimes?
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally. I have been a gun owner for 36 years and I have NEVER once, not one time ever, violated a gun law. Why should I be penalized when I have done nothing wrong.

    The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns. His second act was illegal, murdering his mother. His third act was illegal, the horrific mass murders he committed at the school. Please tell me why if all those acts are clearly illegal the laws on the books already didn't stop them? Oh yeah, it is because criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law. New laws won't change that fact, no matter how much anyone wshes it to be so. Further, no laws will stop the mentally ill from breaking the law if their illness impairs their judgement or causes them to act out illegally.

    Use the laws on the books to punish criminals...it is really that simple.
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  3. #43
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    I'm Canadian so I won't even pretend to understand the gun control debate in the US. But I pray for the first responders who will be haunted by this tragedy for the rest of their lives. And I pray for the families of the slain.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally. I have been a gun owner for 36 years and I have NEVER once, not one time ever, violated a gun law. Why should I be penalized when I have done nothing wrong.

    The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns. His second act was illegal, murdering his mother. His third act was illegal, the horrific mass murders he committed at the school. Please tell me why if all those acts are clearly illegal the laws on the books already didn't stop them? Oh yeah, it is because criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law. New laws won't change that fact, no matter how much anyone wshes it to be so. Further, no laws will stop the mentally ill from breaking the law if their illness impairs their judgement or causes them to act out illegally.

    Use the laws on the books to punish criminals...it is really that simple.
    The greater problem, in my opinion, with this situation is that Adam Lanza had psychiatric issues that were not treated.

    I'm not going to blame his mother, as I'm sure that's not a good position to be in, having to deal a mentally ill child. I am going to blame our mental health system, which has been systematically torn apart.

    We have a kid where I live and volunteer that's much like what I've read about Adam Lanza. This kid reacts violently toward others, threatens to kill his mother, and such. His mother wants him institutionalized, but it would cost $4,000 per MONTH! That's outrageous!

    So, she and her husband are left to do what they can at home. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with the same issues, but I'm not holding my breath. I was on duty when a school shooting incident occurred where I work full-time, which happened to be in my district. Not a fun day, but fortunately his gun jammed and no one was injured.

    That leads to the other issue- schools and local jurisdictions taking this seriously. I know of too many schools that feel it won't happen there. That's not good.

  5. #45
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ...The guns used in the shooting in Connecticut were STOLEN by the shooter. The fact that they belonged to his mother doesn't eliminate the fact that his first act was illegal, theft of the guns...
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
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  6. #46
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
    And if a drunk driver didn't ever get a car he wouldn't kill innocent people with his car while drunk.

    Maybe if there was an affordable, easy to access, mental health option it never would have happened either.

    Why can't guys like you with flippant, simplistic answers, ever address the simple truth that even if it were possible to confiscate all legally owned guns (believe me it isn't) you will NEVER, EVER, get the guns that criminals possess. Further, once the criminals know that law abiding citizens can no longer defend themselves you WILL see a spike in crime. ALL violent crime spiked in Australia, murder, armed robbery, assault, and home invasions after the strict gun control laws were passed there.

    By the way, would his mother be any less dead if he had shot her with a pump shotgun? Of course not. It is not the gun it is the perpetrator. Punish criminals and identify and get proper help for the mentally ill. Those are realistic answers, not feel good knee jerk reactions that accomplish nothing.
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  7. #47
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And if his mother was not legally able to get that gun....step 1 of the ordeal might not have occurred.

    But we'll never know.
    Hypotheticals and what-ifs as a basis of an argument, ok.
    What if, in the 12 years he was in the care of professional educators in our public education system, just one of them would have not ignored his reputed behavior?
    What if, in the years leading up to this, his mother would have followed through with what is being reported on seeking help?
    What if, for the sake of argument there was no gun to be had and like in China, he went to the school and sliced the kids up with a razor?
    What if, for the sake of argument he got in in his car and ran down the students while waiting for the buses?
    The sad truth, if they are that sick, there will be a will and a way.
    What if some people put the blame where it belongs, not on the gun, but the evil that wielded it?

    But we'll never know.
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  8. #48
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    get the guns that criminals possess.
    Ah yes, but in this case.....he was NOT a criminal prior to getting the legally obtained gun.


    Hypotheticals and what-ifs as a basis of an argument, ok.
    Sorry, I'd rather deal with shootings as "what-ifs" than actual events.


    Why are some people so quick to focus on only the mental health issue? There are thousands of mentally ill people who are not going around shooting people with semi-automatic guns.

    There is no 1 single simple answer. But why not take some simple steps to begin to address the problems? Obviously, limiting semi-automatic weapons is only part of the solution. Obviously more health care is part of the solution. Why are people arguing for only part and not all parts?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The point that you, and the knee jerk anti-gun reactionary crowd, fail to see is NONE of these gun laws stop criminals. They simply prevent law abiding citizens from enjoying a hobby that they do legally.
    Precisely my previous point. Since the laws don't stop criminals, should we have no laws at all? What if I liked to drive my car at a 100 mph through my neighborhood. Is that a hobby I should be allowed?

    Will you still be able to enjoy your hobby if background checks are done for all firearms transactions?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Precisely my previous point. Since the laws don't stop criminals, should we have no laws at all? What if I liked to drive my car at a 100 mph through my neighborhood. Is that a hobby I should be allowed?

    Will you still be able to enjoy your hobby if background checks are done for all firearms transactions?
    No one is saying no laws prevent crimes, what we're saying is that they prevent those of us whom believe in an organized system of governance from deciding we'll do whatever pleases us. Criminals will not fear gun bans or find it difficult to do harm. Heck even without guns people who are determined to kill multiple innocent people can find numerous effective methods, most of which are less intimate and allow them a better chance of escape.

    As for background checks and gun show loopholes and the like, I totally agree. I've owned firearms for all of my adult life and grew up with them before that, and I've never been a member of the NRA as I think they take things too far. Much like being a Republican, but staying clear of the Tea Party.
    As a law abiding citizens with no intention of shooting people, I see no reason not to register my firearms and ensure every legal gun is tracked from the moment it comes of the line to the time it's cut up or otherwise destroyed. This allows the same number of Americans to remain legally and gainfully employed, does not force law abiding citizens to give up the right to those bear arms as see as necessary to their way of life and the defense of their families. The NRA and many's thought that government troops or agents will come collect all the guns is totally whacked and discounts our system of government. Not to mention it's insulting to federal employees that people would think they'd be mindless gestapo like storm troopers.
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  11. #51
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    I bet there are thousands of mentally I'll people not shooting up schools. But on the flip side, there are millions of law abiding gun owners not doing that either. So your solution is to punish the many for a few?
    Here is a hypothetical: what if our gun touting individual came up against an individual armed with a legal conceal/carry permit and ended it? How would that influence this discussion?
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 12-21-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Here is a hypothetical: what if our gun touting individual came up against an individual armed with a legal conceal/carry permit and ended it? How would that influence this discussion?
    Here is another hypothetical: What if the individual armed with a legal conceal/carry permit gets killed by the gun toting individual first?

    What would the outcome be if that occurred?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Here is another hypothetical: What if the individual armed with a legal conceal/carry permit gets killed by the gun toting individual first?

    What would the outcome be if that occurred?
    With history being the only judge; its been shown that even the briefest encounter with an authority figure has put a swift end to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    With history being the only judge; its been shown that even the briefest encounter with an authority figure has put a swift end to it.
    What circumstances are you referring?
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    Pearl High School. Very similar to this, with a vastly different outcome. Lets be real, is it an end all solution to the issue, no. The root of the issue is still the human factor. Not addressing that, properly, will have the same useless effect as banning gun sales on Tuesday only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Pearl High School. Very similar to this, with a vastly different outcome. Lets be real, is it an end all solution to the issue, no. The root of the issue is still the human factor. Not addressing that, properly, will have the same useless effect as banning gun sales on Tuesday only.
    I would say the outcome could have been vastly different if the shooter had shot the Vice Principal. BTW, I've not advocated banning gun sales on any day of the week.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I bet there are thousands of mentally I'll people not shooting up schools. But on the flip side, there are millions of law abiding gun owners not doing that either. So your solution is to punish the many for a few?
    Here is a hypothetical: what if our gun touting individual came up against an individual armed with a legal conceal/carry permit and ended it? How would that influence this discussion?
    Wouldn't change my mind at all. I still see no need for a person to own a semi-automatic gun.

    In case you care....this incident did not cause me to have that belief.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Wouldn't change my mind at all. I still see no need for a person to own a semi-automatic gun.

    In case you care....this incident did not cause me to have that belief.
    Why, you think that really makes a difference? 2 world wars, countless other military actions, and million where killed with the most basic of bolt action rifles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Wouldn't change my mind at all. I still see no need for a person to own a semi-automatic gun.

    In case you care....this incident did not cause me to have that belief.
    Should the President's security detail have semi or fully automatic firearms? How about Governors details, or just plain cops? At what point are the lives of our politicians worth more than that of us common folk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Wouldn't change my mind at all. "I still see no need for a person to own a semi-automatic gun."

    THAT ship has sailed, never to return.

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