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Thread: 18 Children Dead in CT Mass Shooting

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What's pathetic is that you've made a statement without support. Which is typical.
    If there are any statements I've made you care to challenge with facts, say so. I'm not in any hurry but can back up everything I've written on the subject with references if need be. Can you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay, let me embarass you one last time. The AK-47 fires an intermediate round. It is 7.62x39, the previous MAIN BATTLE RIFLE round for the former Soviet Union was the 7.62x54. The US military currently uses the 5.56x45mm round, which is another intermediate round.. It replaced the 7.62x51mm round of the M14 a MAIN BATTLE RIFLE. The 7.62x51 replaced the 30-06 which was 7.62x63mm and was used in the M1 Garand and the 1903 Springfield. Both of which were MAIN BATTLE RIFLES.
    Ha ha ha. The only being embarrassed is yourself. A couple of points. I stated I could make a case the M1 was an assault rifle in its day. You seem to think people actually care about your knowledge regarding the terminology of firearms. I could make the case that what you now call MAIN BATTLE RIFLES were in fact the ASSAULT RIFLES of their era.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Your complete ignorance of this topic makes you nothing more than another ultra leftist anti-gunner of the worst type. You can't intelligent define or defend your position so you resort to nonsense and drivel. You know like the purchase and ownership of candy and potato chips are heavily regulated by the government. (Yeah, Yeah, I heard you try to say that regulation of manufacture of candy s the same as regulation of what you can buy and what quantity. Sorry, that is just plain stupid and even you know it and that is why you dropped that line of drivel.) Like comparing the use of commercial explosive to legal gun ownership. Like calling something a "military style assault weapon" isn't calling that very same thing an assault weapon.
    See above response. I'll try to make my comparison one more time as it relates to explosives and assault rifle type weapons. The majority of users of commercial explosives (like the owners of firearms) are law abiding good folks who use those items in a responsible manner. However, since there is a very few individuals who might possibly misuse explosives they are tightly regulated and tracked. I can't make it any clearer to than that. If you choose to not understand the analogy I'm making, that is certainly your choice. More importantly the Supreme Court has deemed the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute. There are restrictions on firearms of certain types. The 2nd Amendment says you have a right to bear arms. It doesn't say you have a right to a semi-auto rifle with a 30, 50, or 100 round magazine. It doesn't say you have a right to buy a weapon at a gun show with no background check. It doesn't say that guns can't be registered. It doesn't say that bullets can't be microstamped. It doesn't say that safety locks and safes can't be required in homes. These are things that could be done that don't violate the 2nd Amendment and have been shown to work in other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You see this is why I believe you are just trolling here. You have been stomped by not only me, but multiple people on this topic nd all you do is divert. Try to do what you kept yelling at the guy in the politics topic about...stay on topic. But, I don't think you can because you expected to go up against a bunch of good old boy gun guys that don't know the law or the actual definitions of what you are poorly attempting to talk about. It must really hurt your ego to see you can't bluff or bully people on this topic because we know more than you do...but then again that has never had any meaning to knee jerk poiliticos anyways.
    Blah blah blah. When people are being shot at they don't care what YOU call the weapon being used. I doubt anyone in Sandy Hook Elementary School was glad they were only being shot at with a weapon you don't consider an assault rifle.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-23-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    The energy of a projectile downrange is the main defining factor in a round's effectiveness. That's what ballistics data is all about.

    The mass of the bullet and its velocity together determine its ballistics. Think of it like an MVA where a vehicle hits a stationary object. Two vehicles are the same physical size (caliber) but the second one (30-06) is going considerably faster and is heavier. The second one (30-06) is going to do significantly more damage. There are other factors involving the projectile's properties (bullet or vehicle) and the target itself that can enhance or reduce the damage incurred, but that gets more complicated than simple ballistics.
    ZZZZzzzzzzz BORRRRINNNGGG!!!

    They both fire .30 cal. rounds with 150 gr bullets. They can both knock down a deer sized animal at 300 yards. The only thing that military ball ammo doesn't do as well is expand since by treaty the militaries across the world agreed to only use full metal jacketed rounds.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-23-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They both fire .30 cal. rounds with 150 gr bullets.
    And yet they have very different ballistics.

    They can both knock down a deer sized animal at 300 yards.
    .30-06? No problem. 7.62x39? Problem. Not even a close comparison. Could you hunt deer with a 7.62x39 round? In a pinch and at close range, yeah. At 300 yards you'd better be God's gift to marksmen and shoot only deer with very thin skin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    ZZZZzzzzzzz BORRRRINNNGGG!!!

    They both fire .30 cal. rounds with 150 gr bullets. They can both knock down a deer sized animal at 300 yards. The only thing that military ball ammo doesn't do as well is expand since by treaty the militaries across the world agreed to only use full metal jacketed rounds.
    Yepper, and that treaty worked well too. I have some Japanese rounds from WW2 that my Dad brought home that thet Japanese soldiers had cut the ends off the bullets so they would expand more. Golly, I guess signing that treaty meant no one would do that sort of thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Ha ha ha. The only being embarrassed is yourself. A couple of points. I stated I could make a case the M1 was an assault rifle in its day. You seem to think people actually care about your knowledge regarding the terminology of firearms. I could make the case that what you now call MAIN BATTLE RIFLES were in fact the ASSAULT RIFLES of their era.

    No matter how you want to keep trying to spin this the M1 Garand WILL NOT EVER be an assault rifle. It simply and clearly does not meet the definition of such. Was it an advanced design? Yes, it was. But that does not make it an assault rifle.


    See above response. I'll try to make my comparison one more time as it relates to explosives and assault rifle type weapons. The majority of users of commercial explosives (like the owners of firearms) are law abiding good folks who use those items in a responsible manner. However, since there is a very few individuals who might possibly misuse explosives they are tightly regulated and tracked. I can't make it any clearer to than that. If you choose to not understand the analogy I'm making, that is certainly your choice. More importantly the Supreme Court has deemed the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute. There are restrictions on firearms of certain types. The 2nd Amendment says you have a right to bear arms. It doesn't say you have a right to a semi-auto rifle with a 30, 50, or 100 round magazine. It doesn't say you have a right to buy a weapon at a gun show with no background check. It doesn't say that guns can't be registered. It doesn't say that bullets can't be microstamped. It doesn't say that safety locks and safes can't be required in homes. These are things that could be done that don't violate the 2nd Amendment and have been shown to work in other countries

    The 2nd Ammendment has absolutely no restrictions on the type or quantity of firearms that may be owned. Those restrictions have been added by the legisilature and the 2nd ammendment hasn't been changed. One actually could make the argument that those laws violate the 2nd Ammendment.


    Blah blah blah. When people are being shot at they don't care what YOU call the weapon being used. I doubt anyone in Sandy Hook Elementary School was glad they were only being shot at with a weapon you don't consider an assault rifle.

    The point here is YOU ARE WRONG and it is someting that you can't handle. You knit picked that guy in the politics topic over minor details and you can't even define the weapon you want to ban. The truth is assault weapons are a miniscule amount of firearms in the grand scheme of things and they ARE heavily regulated. The firearms used were legal for a law abiding citizen to possess because they were all semi-automatic. The fact that you and others love to gloss over is that the shooter stole those guns.

    This crime was horrific, I am not at all saying it wasn't. But the guns are not capable of anything on their own. Human intervention is required for good or evil use of a firearm to occur. The truth is the one thing you have been right about is the victims don't care what type of gun they were shot with and to be honest they would be just as dead if they had been shot with a hunting rifle with a replaceable magazine. The pathetic part is you and the press would then be calling that gun an assault weapon becaue that is how this all works. Propaganda and emotion drive the anti-gun side, not facts, not real solutions to criminals and the mentally ill, but broad stroke punish those that did nothing wrong solutions that solve nothing.
    I pity your ultra simplistic look at this topic. Your mind is so closed that you must have taken lessons from the Republicans you despise so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    And yet they have very different ballistics.

    .30-06? No problem. 7.62x39? Problem. Not even a close comparison. Could you hunt deer with a 7.62x39 round? In a pinch and at close range, yeah. At 300 yards you'd better be God's gift to marksmen and shoot only deer with very thin skin.
    ZZZZZzzzzzz.....not the point.

    I know folks who have done exactly that. More importantly I know folks who were in combat and were either knocked down or saw their colleagues killed by the 7.62x39 round at that range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how you want to keep trying to spin this the M1 Garand WILL NOT EVER be an assault rifle. It simply and clearly does not meet the definition of such. Was it an advanced design? Yes, it was. But that does not make it an assault rifle.
    According to your narrow definition. I'm sure they were considered assault weapons of their era. As was the 1903 Springfield before it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The 2nd Ammendment has absolutely no restrictions on the type or quantity of firearms that may be owned. Those restrictions have been added by the legisilature and the 2nd ammendment hasn't been changed. One actually could make the argument that those laws violate the 2nd Ammendment.
    Doubtful. If that were the case there would have been challenges by now and the laws would be overturned. The Gun Control Act of 1968 has been the law of the land since that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The point here is YOU ARE WRONG and it is someting that you can't handle. You knit picked that guy in the politics topic over minor details and you can't even define the weapon you want to ban. The truth is assault weapons are a miniscule amount of firearms in the grand scheme of things and they ARE heavily regulated. The firearms used were legal for a law abiding citizen to possess because they were all semi-automatic. The fact that you and others love to gloss over is that the shooter stole those guns.
    I haven't glossed over that fact at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This crime was horrific, I am not at all saying it wasn't. But the guns are not capable of anything on their own. Human intervention is required for good or evil use of a firearm to occur. The truth is the one thing you have been right about is the victims don't care what type of gun they were shot with and to be honest they would be just as dead if they had been shot with a hunting rifle with a replaceable magazine. The pathetic part is you and the press would then be calling that gun an assault weapon becaue that is how this all works. Propaganda and emotion drive the anti-gun side, not facts, not real solutions to criminals and the mentally ill, but broad stroke punish those that did nothing wrong solutions that solve nothing.
    Again, no one cares what you consider an assault weapon. Particularly those who have been shot or know folks that have been killed by one. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I pity your ultra simplistic look at this topic. Your mind is so closed that you must have taken lessons from the Republicans you despise so much.
    That's funny. Good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Have a Merry Christmas.
    You too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    According to your narrow definition. I'm sure they were considered assault weapons of their era. As was the 1903 Springfield before it.

    You are still WRONG! No matter how many times you say other wise. Wrong as the day is long and no matter how many times you keep saying the wrong thing it will NEVER be right.

    Man that has got to hurt an arrogant a s s like you.


    Doubtful. If that were the case there would have been challenges by now and the laws would be overturned. The Gun Control Act of 1968 has been the law of the land since that time.

    Show me where in the second ammendment it says anything about the type of firearm or magazine capacity. Go ahead, do some research. I'll wait...


    I haven't glossed over that fact at all.

    YES, you have. REPEATEDLY.


    Again, no one cares what you consider an assault weapon. Particularly those who have been shot or know folks that have been killed by one. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

    Yet you are pushing for more strict gun control and you can't even define the firearm or firearms you want more controls on.

    You are partially right in your Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. It should also read people with knives, baseball bats, gasoline, cars, rope, etc. kill people. The inanimate object is not responsible for any action taken by the person utilizing that tool for illegal purposes. People kill people is far more accurate...than identifying any implement used in the murder.



    That's funny. Good one.

    Sometimes the truth is funny.

    You too.

    I shall. Thank you. Bought my stepdaughter the BBgun she wanted. You know they come with safety glasses now?
    Happy New year too.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-23-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    According to your narrow definition. I'm sure they were considered assault weapons of their era. As was the 1903 Springfield before it.
    And the revolutionary war era musket before that? Was that an assault weapon, too?

    Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.
    More accurately, a tiny fraction of people with guns kill people. The vast majority of people with guns don't kill anyone.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 12-23-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    And the revolutionary war era musket before that? Was that an assault weapon, too?
    I'm sure they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    More accurately, a tiny fraction of people with guns kill people. The vast majority of people with guns don't kill anyone.
    True. However, other countries allow gun ownership and don't have the problems of tiny fractions committing mass murder. It's time we take a look at their models and think about adopting them.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-24-2012 at 01:10 AM.
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    Overwhelming urge to possess numerous wannabe GI Joe guns = paranoid schizophrenia or small penis... or both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure they were.
    Well at least you support the fact that the 2nd Amendment gaurantees citizens the right to own "assault weapons" then.

    However, other countries allow gun ownership and don't have the problems of tiny fractions committing mass murder.
    And there are other countries with high gun ownership that don't have the issues with violence that we have in this country. That indicates that private gun ownership isn't the cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Overwhelming urge to possess numerous wannabe GI Joe guns = paranoid schizophrenia or small penis... or both.
    Many would say the same thing about firefighters with tatoos, or that drive big 4 wheel drive trucks, or a fancy car, or have a burned and damaged helmet, or never wash their gear, or that have to have the biggest camper or motor home, or the fastest speed boat, or high dollar fishing equipment, or the latest and greatest electronic whatever, or any number of other things.

    Frankly shooting is one of MY HOBBIES. I find target shooting and plinking very relaxing because in order to do it right you have to focus on that alone. The type of firearm I choose to do my entirely legal hobby with is really no ones business and your simplistic and insulting inference says more about you than it does about the millions of law abiding gun owners in this country,
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure they were.

    Still wrong, and you look sillier and less informed every time you post something this ridiculous.


    True. However, other countries allow gun ownership and don't have the problems of tiny fractions committing mass murder. It's time we take a look at their models and think about adopting them.

    To me the issues are this country's incredibly poor system of mental health care and perhaps even more important is the glorification of violence and the dehumanization of that violence. How do we glorify and dehumanize violence? Easy, video games allow you to kill and in fact in some games murder with absolutely no consequences, in fact you get bonus points for you body count. Lately the dehumanization charge has been led by the popularity of zombies. You know, humans that have become zombies that the heroes wholesale slaughter at will. Did you know that some survivalists refer to those that will come after what they have as zombies? Why? Because it is easier to consider killing zombies than to kill your neighbor Fred if he comes after your food. The games and the movies are not, in and of themselves, evil or the cause of anything, the cause is when parents give up parenting to those games and movies and reality is lost. Or someone that is mentally ill sees them as reality.

    Address the real issues of society and stop baming inanimate objects for those societal evils.
    Have a joyous Christmas Eve.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-24-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Overwhelming urge to possess numerous wannabe GI Joe guns = paranoid schizophrenia or small penis... or both.
    So, does this analogy apply to your defending of the entire constitution or just the parts of it that apply to what you like?

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    In the mid 1960's to early 1970's.. there was a revolution in mental health care.. and not a good one.

    The liberals stated that it was unfair to "warehouse" people with mental illness, that they should be "mainstreamed" to beome a productve part of society....

    The conservatives thought that the funding mental hospitals was becoming way too expensive....

    So.... in the true "spirit" of bipartisanship, the mental hospitals, where those who resided there had their meds, 3 hots and a cot were were closed and the patients were released into society.... creating the homeless problem that now costs us millions of dollars in shelters, ER visits and such... far more than keeping the institutions open.

    The closing of these institutions also made it far more difficult to get people help with their issues in the beginning stages as opposed to now, where a complete meltdown results in mass murder shootings, etc. etc. etc.

    To reopen many of these mental hospitals will cost a small fortune as they need to be brought up to code in order to reopen.

    My FD used to respond to all calls that are referred to as a "Section 12"; aka involuntary committal.
    Our local hospital has a psych ward, but treatment options are limited due to the "bean counters".. once the beans are gone, the people a released back onto the street, where the cycle starts all over again. The PD responds with the ambulance now, we get sent if the patient is violent or threatening violence.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 12-24-2012 at 07:38 PM. Reason: spelling correction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Still wrong, and you look sillier and less informed every time you post something this ridiculous.
    I'm open minded enough to grant you your right to have your narrow definition of what constitutes an assault rifle. I'm sure you'll grant me my right to believe the majority of people (most of whom don't own guns) don't care about your belief or definition. They just know they don't want to be on the wrong side of one regardless of whether it is selective fire or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Have a joyous Christmas Eve.
    You too.

    For your enjoyment.

    The Christmas Truce

    Okay, if this doesn't make you chuckle, put a tag on your toe.

    Excerpt:

    The proximity of the enemies also allowed men to shout out to their opponents or stick up signs on wooden boards. After a particularly heavy barrage of missiles or bullets, the soldiers might shout out “Missed” or “Left a bit”. (1) This black humour was to be the start of a ‘conversation’ between troops that would hasten the onset of a Christmas truce.
    Never been in combat. But I totally understand the black humor one might have in those circumstances.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-24-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm open minded enough to grant you your right to have your narrow definition of what constitutes an assault rifle. I'm sure you'll grant me my right to believe the majority of people (most of whom don't own guns) don't care about your belief or definition. They just know they don't want to be on the wrong side of one regardless of whether it is selective fire or not.

    Sorry, but trying to deflect from the truth that YOUR definition is 100% wrong doesn't make you anymore right. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition:

    Military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire. Light and portable, yet able to deliver a high volume of fire with reasonable accuracy at modern combat ranges of 1,0001,600 ft (300500 m), assault rifles have become the standard infantry weapon of modern armies. Their ease of handling makes them ideal for mobile assault troops crowded into personnel carriers or helicopters, as well as for guerrilla fighters engaged in jungle or urban warfare. Widely used assault rifles are the U.S. M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions), the Belgian FAL and FNC, and the German G3.
    I don't want to be on the wrong side of a single shot, bolt action, lever action, pump action, revolver, semi-automatic pistol, semi-automatic shotgun, semi-auto-matic rifle, a select fire assault weapon, or a fully automatic machine gun, type of firearm. But then I don't want to be on the wrong end of a knife, machette, baseball bat, hammer, pipe, clun, Molotov cocktail, or any other weapon wielded by some homicidal maniac either. You see the issue once again is, and forever will be, the human wielding the inanimate object that perpetrates the crime, not the inanimate object itself being evil.

    That is why you find guys like me that while I do not conceal carry at this time, will have no problem utilizing the firearms I possess to protect myself and my loved ones in my home. No, I don't look forward to that day, and infact I would be happy if it never occurs. But I am not a sheep and i will not go quietly if bad guys attempt to cause harm to those I love.



    You too.

    I am, thank you. Spending it at home with my wife. Just relaxing and later baking some Christmas cookies.
    Be safe out there Brother. We may not agree but it doesn't mean I don't wish the best for you.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-24-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Overwhelming urge to possess numerous wannabe GI Joe guns = paranoid schizophrenia or small penis... or both.
    Which is, by the 2nd Amendment, still a right that we posses.
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    Funny how those that enjoy the 1st amendment without reserve are the first to bastardize the 2nd.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ermit-holders/
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Be safe out there Brother. We may not agree but it doesn't mean I don't wish the best for you.
    Same here.

    I think this thread has run its course.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm sure they were.


    True. However, other countries allow gun ownership and don't have the problems of tiny fractions committing mass murder. It's time we take a look at their models and think about adopting them.
    Not a popular one, but look at the ethnic / cultural makeup of those nations with lower violence rates, typically they are a fair bit more homogeneous. In most cases when you mix up different ethnicities / cultures in close proximity you tend to find an increase in violence. The US has one of the most mixed up jumbles of ethnicity / culture in the world, in fact we take pride in it with terms like "the melting pot."

    Sadly people just don't seem to be able to get along with people who are different than them.

    So if you want to make comparisons don't look at semi socialist nations where the majority come from the same background. They have taken care of many of the social ills behind mass killings (better care of their poor and mentally ill) and don't have nearly as many people with different thoughts.

    They are not free of this kind of thing either, look at the guy in Scandanavia early this year (or was it late last year), dozens of people killed, mostly children in a nation with quite strict gun control compared to the US.

    Something is going on beyond gun ownership. Focusing on a narrow group of guns will not solve anything if it doesn't take the social issues into account.

    For one thing most politicians don't know enough about guns to make any meaningful guns laws, but mostly as you said yourself, the people being shot at don't care if it is a .22 long rifle, a 5.56mm "assault rifle" or a .30-30 deer rifle. They are mostly concerned that they are being shot at and would dearly like it to stop. Banning all guns is not even an option, and short of a complete ban, no ugly gun law will keep guns away from crazies. So the best thing would be looking to the causes because its not the guns, it is the crazy people who are getting guns. Most gun owners are pretty willing to discuss means to limit crazies from getting guns, they just don't want to have their rights infringed in the name of making it harder for crazies to get guns, particularly when it is already supposed to be difficult for them to do so under existing law.
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  24. #149
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    God Bless the children, the adults, and the families and friends of those that were murdered. Christmas for all involved, is now a nightmare.

    I for one, am against any kind of gun control. Whether it be the type of weapon, or how many rounds it holds in the mag. It really doesn't matter. What matters is, is two fold....

    1. Mental health facilities have been being shut down from the local level to the State level for the last 10 or more years. Even the private facilities have had to shut down because of no private or public funding's. This is bad, really bad. If they can't be housed and medicated, then they are out there, running in the streets.

    2. The media... probably tied to number 1. Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame. How do you do that?? Get mad at your teacher, parent, sibling, the bully that beats you up, etc. Go on a shooting spree, and shoot the most innocent victims you can. While the media doesn't try to glorify the F*Tard, it does.

    How to fix it, is extremely complicated. One way to do it, or a good start, would be to drug test all those on welfare. Have them tested twice a month for drugs, unannounced. You have 24 hours to be at location Z for a drug screening. If you fail, your dropped from welfare. Then take that money and re-institute it to a national mental health care system. If Obama-Care was so perfect, then this wouldn't be an issue.

    I don't have an answer or solution to the mass killings of civilians or innocent people. If I did, I'd run for office. But I do know, regulating guns, weapons, what have you, is NOT going to eliminate the problem.

    Hope you all had a very, Merry Christmas with your families.

    FM1
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  25. #150
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    How anyone could support stricter gun control laws from the same government who willingly allowed countless numbers of ACTUAL assault weapons to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels I will never know.

    And why do I need "wanna be GI Joe guns" you say? Because I said so. Unless I do something illegal with them that is all the answer you need.
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