Like Tree40Likes

Thread: You have to love the inconsitent Moderation of this place...

  1. #51
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Yep. It is all HIS fault, nyah, nyah, nyah.

    Read what I said before posting nonsense and sounding like an a s s.

    What a bunch of cry babies. No wonder the traffic has died in the forums.

    Yepper it is no wonder. The same crap over and over...Golly how many times will he post the abandoned building line when it is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand?

    You don't have to post to every single thread that comes up. Its like you, and a few others, seem to think that no thread can possibly have any valuable information unless you totally agree with it and have awarded it with your presence. Thus, it has to be HIS fault since you are the self appointed expert on every topic and simply cannot be wrong. I have noticed more than one thread die out once you have forced yourself on it.

    Not true, I have had some interesting debates with people here. They have infuenced me, and I have influenced them at times. So nice try, but maybe you should pay more attention.

    Grow up. Take some responsibility for a change. Act like a man instead of a school yard bully.

    Yes mom!

    Nice little threat to keep the crap storm alive until you get your way. It wouldn't bother me in the least if the web team banned you entirely just for that. You don't like the way they run their site, start your own. Since you believe yourself to be the expert of all experts, I am sure your web site would get millions of hits a month. And that's just between you and three or four others. You could have your very own personal echo chamber where everyone idolizes you. There you could actually "refuse to allow" things. Here all you can do is pound your chest and show the rest of us how juvenile you can be.

    You can't possibly be as ignorant as you are sounding here. Or maybe you really are.
    Here's some advice...If you don't like my posts put me on ignore. Otherwise keep whining.

    Merry Christmas!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-17-2012 at 05:50 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  2. #52
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Did YOU read what I posted? I never claimed you said it was all him, because frankly I didn't.
    Well you did post it to me now didn't you?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  3. #53
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Since you believe yourself to be the expert of all experts...
    If the opportunity were to present itself, which one would you rather have as your backup? That's an easy one for me. I generally try to stay away from LA's antics, but when he put my Union on blast, I got involved. That's not to say I agree with his posts. He has his beliefs, they are just not in alignment with the majority of the business. Where he thinks he's being progressive, he's willing to employ those tactics at the expense of the public's lives. That should throw a red flag up in your world too bro.

    I'll admit, I goof on this site more than contribute to it, but that is either because the topic does not interchange with my departments policies and procedures, or because someone like Fyred or yourself has thoroughly covered it.
    Miller337 likes this.
    IAFF

  4. #54
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,675

    Default

    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    If you want to make this about me, have at it.

    I'm sorry that you and some of your cronnies see the fire service from one demension and simply refuse to accept the change that needs to occur within it, wether it be the excessive speed that many apapratus still respond at or the unjustifable chances we take during response or the need for unreasonable training standards that will make volunteering nearly impossible for the majority of the talent pool available to us.

    You haven't got one single clue at all about how anyone operates here yet you paint everyone with your judgemental "Safety Sally you guys all have a death wish" broad brush. Not one of my FDs has had a single serious line of duty injury in YEARS. Well, with the exception of EMS with back strains.

    All of the FDs I am on require driver's to take the tech school driver operator course. Does yours? We have SOGs detailing reponse, speeds, intersections, when to run hot. Does yours?

    I have repeatedly discussed new construction and "GO, NO GO" situations with my POC FDs, my Captain at my career FD has done the same. We study "Reading Smoke," how fire attacks structures, different attack strategies and more. We spend many hours on RIT and "Save Yourself" training.

    The truth is just like the rest of the nonsense you spread, including made up indefensible statistics, and so much more, you haven't got one clue about what any other FD does and you don't care because it interferes with your propaganda campaign.


    The fact is that we are killing and injuring far too many firefighters inside the structure. That's not anything that I am making up but it's simple statistics. Flashovers. Interior structural and ceiling collapses. Floor collapses. You can read about it everday. Members that are operating in structures that are no longer viable. Members operating in structures with no value. Members that are operating in structures with heavy smoke and fire conditions that rapidly accelerate, and the accelration was predictable. Members operating with interior inadequate resources rather than simply accepting that we don't have the resources so safely fight it and simply operate defensive because "we are the fire department".

    Deny it if you wish. That's fine. But the numbers and the headlines on FH, Fire Engineeering and any other fire service websites don't lie.

    It's the same thing with apparatus accidents. Speed. Intersection Management. Lack of training. Again, the stats and the headlines don't lie. We still, as a service, respond far to fast to incidents that the vast majority of the time aren't, and never will be actual emergenicies.

    Maybe your department trains. Maybe your department requires certifications. Funny, both of my departments have minimum training standards and encourages certifications as well.


    And yes, much like you will continue to fight me I will continue to fight the mindset that somehow we have an obligation to enter abandoned structures in communities with no significant history of occupany, that it's not acceptable for any member to choose not to act at an off-duty or out-of district incident if they do not have tools to do the job or the protections to keep thier famalies financially secure, or that training standards need to be reasonable and community based, not unrealistic, unobtainable for most volunteers and based on a vanillia national standard which may have minimum relevancy in thier local community.

    And here it is again, when you run out of the ability to defend letting people BURN TO DEATH in cars because you might break a nail, or refusing to enter a burning OCCUPIED home because the building is on fire, you ALWAYS fall back on the abandoned building fallacy. NO ONE BUT YOU MENTIONED ABANDONED BUILDINGS IN THIS TOPIC. We have all grown accustom to your failing to defend your beliefs because you simply can't, and when you get cornered you always pull out the abandoned building nonsense.


    More than one time we have discussed that, and more than one time there have been members here that insist over and over that "it's not empty until we say it's empty". I'm very sorry but that line of thinking is killing and injuring members needlessly. In my communities, if it's abandoned, it's empty, and I don't need somebeody from outside of my two departments telling me that we need to operate interior and search it to verify that.

    Maybe you have that problem where you are, and if you can justify that and be able to sell it to a widow of a deceased member or the wife of a firefighter in a burn ward, great, and have at it. but in my mind i sure can't and never will be able to justify the thought that I sent a member into a abandoned structure that likely is empty. People make choices, and sorry, if somebody chooses to live or more than likely, partake in illegal activities in that structure I will not allow one or more of my members to die or be seriously injured because of the poor choices they have made in life.

    As far as of duty and out of district, our members also have the right not to intervene. We are not always firefighters. Without PPE, communications, tools, apparatus and medical and wage protection we are civilians, and as such, we have the right to act in the best interests of those to whom we are most responsible - our famalies. If you disagree with that, fine, but I sincerly hope that if you take action in that situation one day, it does not destroy your life financially, physically or emotionally. All rookie members need to hear that message. Think before you act and remember .. ALWAYS REMEMBER .. you and your family are the priority.



    What is most pathetic about your failure to act is that UNTRAINED civilians with courage, humanity, and compassion won't simply watch or drive by as their fellow man BURNS TO DEATH. They will try to save them, they may fail, and they may get injured in the attempt, but they are not empty shells pretending to be either human or a firefighter, they are just people who now what is right.

    And that is thier choice just like it ios the choice ... yes, choice ... of any firefighter - career or volunteer - to act when off duty or out of district.

    No standards means you can continue to be all inclusive. You know the 400 pound fat guy that is a heart attack in the making, the guy who wants to be a firefighter but won't go near fire, the guy who can't climb 4 feet up a ladder, the guy who only wants to drive...Your idea of what a firefighter is is a complete joke.

    My idea of what a firefighter is understands that there are communities that simply cannot and will never be able to staff a department of 3o fit young members fully capable of performing every aspect of the job. That is the reality in rural America.

    I understand that members who can only drive, or wish to operate exterior have the same value as an interior member, and can be just as valauable when operating as part of a firefighting team.

    Again, if there were no such members most of the rural departments, both here in LA as well as in my previous location, VT, would simply not be able to operate on the fireground.

    To paint what a "firefighter should be" across America based on your small piece of the pie is unrealsitic. It's simply not the case in many places. A firefighter is anyone who operates on the fireground, even in limited capicities. If you want to have your purist view, great, but in many, many places the only way they will ever be able to operate is to be inclusive.



    The fact was that in many cases, my posts have nothing to do with any of the above, but there are 5 or 6 posters that always feel they need to take a pot shot even though it's not relevant to any of my posts in that thread. If you. or they, think that will drive me off, it won't.

    The facts are you behave like a troll on so many occasions that you have made yourself irrelevant in 99 44/100's of all the posts you make. I despise those that purposely bait you to drag you into topics as much as I despise your BS.

    Yup, that's me.

    Nothing will drive you off, you are a masochistic narcissist. Any attention is better than none for you, even negative.

    I have no issues with anyone diagreeing with any of my posts when relevant, and am always happy to debate why I feel the way I do. My vision of the fire service is not those who disagree with me. We need to accept that in many places, we simply cannot act in the way we have in the past, either due to funding, manpower, building construction or demographic changes. That may mean more civilian fatalities, which is tragic, but in many ways, unavoidable due the above mentioned changes, and as a service we need to accept that greater risks by firefighters will not change that, but will only result in greater firefighter injries and deaths.

    First of all, you drift more topics off topic with your idiotic ramblings over and over about abandoned buildings. Secondly, if you have not at a local board meeting expressed to the local board and citizens in attendance that you will not do interior attacks or rescue attempts then you are BALD FACED LYING t your community. Whether you believe they know it or not, if you haven't outright said it, the expectation is you WILL go inside to fight fire and save lives.

    Disagreed. But being such an expert in this locale, it's amazing that you can't prove that.

    I actually pity you, I really do. You are so out of touch with reality and so desperate for attention that you continue a crusade that virtually no one here supports. Sad, pathetic, and ridiculous.

    Funny, based on the PMs I recieve with folks who are for some unknown reason too scared to agree with me on the forums, I have to disagree.

    You are wrong far more than you think.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-17-2012 at 06:21 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #55
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Nice post LA, what was the point of just quoting the post and then not even doing that right?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,346

    Default

    With regard to LaFE, I'm reminded of the old saw, "If a husband says something and his wife doesn't hear him, is he still wrong?" (Or something like that).

    I swear, there are people here who would call LA to task for stating the sky was blue or fire trucks are red - mostly because it was cloudy where they were at the time or their trucks are {name your color}. Or because they didn't think he really knew what the colors blue or red were.

    We've got, at best, a few dozen regular posters here - most of whom think they've got the handle on how the fire service should be run. And just like Dave Statter's KICs, they rarely have the whole picture.

    Like LA or not, if you disagree with something he says in a given thread, go ahead and say so - and why. We're here to learn (or at least most of us are) But don't dredge up irrelevant statements from ages ago - searching abandoned buildings has nothing to do with the color of bunker gear. If you have nothing to add, don't.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  7. #57
    Forum Member
    EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Nippa, KY
    Posts
    3,145

    Default

    Uh, right here is what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    I don't entirely agree. The biggest irritant to me right now is how threads keep getting derailed by everybody jumping on LaFireEducator. There is no thread that can't devolve into a series of five-paragraph diatribes from both sides of the fence, squeezing every last bit of education, information, and entertainment out of the threads until they all look the same.

    I'll echo what somebody posted earlier. Nobody is going to change LaFireEducator's mind. He's not going to change anyone else's. So why do both sides keep feeding the monster?

    The threads remind me of the barber shop in my hometown when I was a kid. Dad takes his son in, tells the barber to part it on the left, taper the back, and leave a little bit of length. Kid leaves with a flattop. It didn't matter what you told him you wanted. You got a flattop. That's the way it is around here. No matter what the thread is supposed to be about, it ends up being an argument between LaFireEducator and his personal heckling squad.

    Getting sick of it.
    I never claimed you, FyredUp, did anything in particular. But if the shoe fits, wear it.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    Miller337's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    I don't entirely agree. The biggest irritant to me right now is how threads keep getting derailed by everybody jumping on LaFireEducator. There is no thread that can't devolve into a series of five-paragraph diatribes from both sides of the fence, squeezing every last bit of education, information, and entertainment out of the threads until they all look the same.

    I'll echo what somebody posted earlier. Nobody is going to change LaFireEducator's mind. He's not going to change anyone else's. So why do both sides keep feeding the monster?

    The threads remind me of the barber shop in my hometown when I was a kid. Dad takes his son in, tells the barber to part it on the left, taper the back, and leave a little bit of length. Kid leaves with a flattop. It didn't matter what you told him you wanted. You got a flattop. That's the way it is around here. No matter what the thread is supposed to be about, it ends up being an argument between LaFireEducator and his personal heckling squad.

    Getting sick of it.
    Me too K-Fried. This is just nuts, it really don't matter where LAFE posts or about what someone has to start in on him. LAFE's M.O. is contraversial at best but this constant deluge gets depressing and tiresome.
    ATFDFF likes this.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    RyanK63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fleetville, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Here is my solution to the problem. I've just created a forum for us. It's a free forum, and it will take me a day to get the basics up and running good enough for everyone to use but I'll release the link tomorrow. It will have the same feel as this, except no bull****. We will all be able to enjoy a good conversation and debate about things. I'm also looking for good people to be staff members. If you are interested send me a private message on here.



    EDIT:

    Actually I decided to just give you guys the link now. Please understand I'm still working on adding things and graphics for the site to be patient. Overall the forum sections are there, sign up, and start posting and have fun.

    http://w11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Service_Forum/index/
    Last edited by RyanK63; 12-17-2012 at 09:56 PM.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

  10. #60
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You are right, there were a number of typos in that post. I should have taken a little bit of time and proofread it a bit more carefully.
    This a laughable statement. If this were a unique situation I might cut you some slack. It isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I challenge you, again, to prove that I am not or ever have been a firefighter. It is these kind of baseless attacks that drive people away.
    Your own statements prove my point. Denying the truth over and over doesn't make your position more valid. Just realize that your beliefs are indicative of a poser that subscribes to **** poor response due to being in an environment that allows **** poor behavior and attitudes like yours to prosper. It may not be your fault. It may be the locale that sponsors you is propagated by similar thinking individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I really don't feel sorry for you. I do, however, feel sorry for the folks that are under you that must be forced to live in the past rather than adjusting to the present and the future. Certainly we want to hold onto the ceremonial traditions of the past, but fireground operations need to be dictated by what is happening now, and what will happen in the future, not what we have done in the past.
    Ha ha ha. Like I would care about your feelings. The folks I worked with had no problem doing their jobs as firefighters. The traditions of attempting rescues on or off duty were not considered ceremonial to us. Rather we viewed those opportunities as obligations. Your diatribes about safety are nothing more than the poser who has the uniform of wanting all the glory of being a firefighter but none of the actual responsibility.

    If all you wanted was the uniform you could have found one at Galls.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-17-2012 at 11:56 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So who are you? My mom? If not, then why are you lecturing me? I wasn't addressing you.
    Most definitely not. If I were your parent, I'd have curtailed your posting habits a while ago.

    And if I was a moderator here....you'd probably have been banned.
    BoxAlarm187 and ATFDFF like this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #62
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that we are killing and injuring far too many firefighters inside the structure. That's not anything that I am making up but it's simple statistics. Flashovers. Interior structural and ceiling collapses. Floor collapses. You can read about it everday. Members that are operating in structures that are no longer viable. Members operating in structures with no value. Members that are operating in structures with heavy smoke and fire conditions that rapidly accelerate, and the accelration was predictable. Members operating with interior inadequate resources rather than simply accepting that we don't have the resources so safely fight it and simply operate defensive because "we are the fire department".

    Deny it if you wish. That's fine. But the numbers and the headlines on FH, Fire Engineeering and any other fire service websites don't lie.
    If you are saying "too many" in a utopian "one is too many" sense, then I could agree with you. However, I suspect that you are not talking about that. The fact is for the last 4 years (including 2012), the annual LODD total has been under 100 while the 10 years prior to that were all over 100 annually. Unfortunately the USFA site is down right now so I can't cite more specifically, but the percentage of LODDs from the things you listed is actually pretty small. Medical and Vehicular related events happen far more often than catastrophic events resulting in LODD.

    While you may be able to read about it everyday in some fashion, it is not necessarily occurring everyday. Firefighting is an ultra hazardous job and there's simply no way to do the job properly and entirely avoid all injuries and deaths. Yes, there are portions of the fire service that haven't quite gotten "with the program" yet and are still engaging in behavior that we know to be "too risky" or ill advised. On the other hand, a lot have and nowadays we tend to hear far more about the "bad stuff" that happens rather than about the ones that are "doing it right".

    You are correct, the numbers, headlines, magazines and websites don't lie. You on the other hand either do or are simply out of touch with reality.

    It's the same thing with apparatus accidents. Speed. Intersection Management. Lack of training. Again, the stats and the headlines don't lie. We still, as a service, respond far to fast to incidents that the vast majority of the time aren't, and never will be actual emergenicies.
    And I don't believe anybody has said that improvement in these areas isn't needed.

    Maybe your department trains. Maybe your department requires certifications. Funny, both of my departments have minimum training standards and encourages certifications as well.
    Maybe both of your departments do these things, but not all do.

    My idea of what a firefighter is understands that there are communities that simply cannot and will never be able to staff a department of 3o fit young members fully capable of performing every aspect of the job. That is the reality in rural America.
    We fully realize this and it makes things challenging, but the reality in all of America is that the citizens expect their Fire Department to be able to perform like one - specifically being able to put their fire out and rescue their loved ones.

    I understand that members who can only drive, or wish to operate exterior have the same value as an interior member, and can be just as valauable when operating as part of a firefighting team.
    Yes, they have value as part of the "team" and philosophically all parts of the team have "equal value", however the reality is not all of the parts are in fact equally valuable individually.

    From a team perspective, every position on a football team is equally valuable because it takes all of them working together to be successful. From an individual perspective all of the players have value, but they are not all equally valuable. Part of that is based off performance, part is based on utility and part is based off the situation. Not all players at a specific position perform equally. Not all players have the ability to play more than one position or role on the team. If you need a quarterback, but all you have available is offensive lineman and a kicker, how "valuable" are they at that moment?

    Firefighting is very much a team sport and there may be value to having "position players", but it's hard to argue on an individual basis that a person who can only do one or two roles on the fireground is equally valuable as a person that could fill any role. It's also hard to argue that everyone is equally valuable when you need interior capable firefighters, but only have exterior or driver only personnel available for assignment.

    For the most part, we recognize that these individuals have value to the organization, but we also recognize that that value comes with the potential for real world limitations.

    Again, if there were no such members most of the rural departments, both here in LA as well as in my previous location, VT, would simply not be able to operate on the fireground.

    To paint what a "firefighter should be" across America based on your small piece of the pie is unrealsitic. It's simply not the case in many places. A firefighter is anyone who operates on the fireground, even in limited capicities. If you want to have your purist view, great, but in many, many places the only way they will ever be able to operate is to be inclusive.
    Again, we realize this and understand it may not change. However, the issue isn't so much with what we think a "firefighter should be" based on our piece of the pie, but rather what the citizens' expect a firefighter and fire department to actually be. Unfortunately, we know that in too many places, the capability doesn't match that expectation. You can call it a "purist view" if you want, we prefer to think of it as "truth in advertising".

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You can call it a "purist view" if you want, we prefer to think of it as "truth in advertising".
    Well put..
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Most definitely not. If I were your parent, I'd have curtailed your posting habits a while ago.

    And if I was a moderator here....you'd probably have been banned.
    For what reason? They won't even ban a guy who wished members of this forum to die in a fire.

    Get off your high horse before you hit your head, again.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #65
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    If you want to make this about me, have at it.

    I'm sorry that you and some of your cronnies see the fire service from one demension and simply refuse to accept the change that needs to occur within it, wether it be the excessive speed that many apapratus still respond at or the unjustifable chances we take during response or the need for unreasonable training standards that will make volunteering nearly impossible for the majority of the talent pool available to us.

    You haven't got one single clue at all about how anyone operates here yet you paint everyone with your judgemental "Safety Sally you guys all have a death wish" broad brush. Not one of my FDs has had a single serious line of duty injury in YEARS. Well, with the exception of EMS with back strains.

    All of the FDs I am on require driver's to take the tech school driver operator course. Does yours? We have SOGs detailing reponse, speeds, intersections, when to run hot. Does yours?

    I have repeatedly discussed new construction and "GO, NO GO" situations with my POC FDs, my Captain at my career FD has done the same. We study "Reading Smoke," how fire attacks structures, different attack strategies and more. We spend many hours on RIT and "Save Yourself" training.

    The truth is just like the rest of the nonsense you spread, including made up indefensible statistics, and so much more, you haven't got one clue about what any other FD does and you don't care because it interferes with your propaganda campaign.


    The fact is that we are killing and injuring far too many firefighters inside the structure. That's not anything that I am making up but it's simple statistics. Flashovers. Interior structural and ceiling collapses. Floor collapses. You can read about it everday. Members that are operating in structures that are no longer viable. Members operating in structures with no value. Members that are operating in structures with heavy smoke and fire conditions that rapidly accelerate, and the accelration was predictable. Members operating with interior inadequate resources rather than simply accepting that we don't have the resources so safely fight it and simply operate defensive because "we are the fire department".

    Deny it if you wish. That's fine. But the numbers and the headlines on FH, Fire Engineeering and any other fire service websites don't lie.

    It's the same thing with apparatus accidents. Speed. Intersection Management. Lack of training. Again, the stats and the headlines don't lie. We still, as a service, respond far to fast to incidents that the vast majority of the time aren't, and never will be actual emergenicies.

    Maybe your department trains. Maybe your department requires certifications. Funny, both of my departments have minimum training standards and encourages certifications as well.


    And yes, much like you will continue to fight me I will continue to fight the mindset that somehow we have an obligation to enter abandoned structures in communities with no significant history of occupany, that it's not acceptable for any member to choose not to act at an off-duty or out-of district incident if they do not have tools to do the job or the protections to keep thier famalies financially secure, or that training standards need to be reasonable and community based, not unrealistic, unobtainable for most volunteers and based on a vanillia national standard which may have minimum relevancy in thier local community.

    And here it is again, when you run out of the ability to defend letting people BURN TO DEATH in cars because you might break a nail, or refusing to enter a burning OCCUPIED home because the building is on fire, you ALWAYS fall back on the abandoned building fallacy. NO ONE BUT YOU MENTIONED ABANDONED BUILDINGS IN THIS TOPIC. We have all grown accustom to your failing to defend your beliefs because you simply can't, and when you get cornered you always pull out the abandoned building nonsense.


    More than one time we have discussed that, and more than one time there have been members here that insist over and over that "it's not empty until we say it's empty". I'm very sorry but that line of thinking is killing and injuring members needlessly. In my communities, if it's abandoned, it's empty, and I don't need somebeody from outside of my two departments telling me that we need to operate interior and search it to verify that.

    Maybe you have that problem where you are, and if you can justify that and be able to sell it to a widow of a deceased member or the wife of a firefighter in a burn ward, great, and have at it. but in my mind i sure can't and never will be able to justify the thought that I sent a member into a abandoned structure that likely is empty. People make choices, and sorry, if somebody chooses to live or more than likely, partake in illegal activities in that structure I will not allow one or more of my members to die or be seriously injured because of the poor choices they have made in life.

    As far as of duty and out of district, our members also have the right not to intervene. We are not always firefighters. Without PPE, communications, tools, apparatus and medical and wage protection we are civilians, and as such, we have the right to act in the best interests of those to whom we are most responsible - our famalies. If you disagree with that, fine, but I sincerly hope that if you take action in that situation one day, it does not destroy your life financially, physically or emotionally. All rookie members need to hear that message. Think before you act and remember .. ALWAYS REMEMBER .. you and your family are the priority.



    What is most pathetic about your failure to act is that UNTRAINED civilians with courage, humanity, and compassion won't simply watch or drive by as their fellow man BURNS TO DEATH. They will try to save them, they may fail, and they may get injured in the attempt, but they are not empty shells pretending to be either human or a firefighter, they are just people who now what is right.

    And that is thier choice just like it ios the choice ... yes, choice ... of any firefighter - career or volunteer - to act when off duty or out of district.

    No standards means you can continue to be all inclusive. You know the 400 pound fat guy that is a heart attack in the making, the guy who wants to be a firefighter but won't go near fire, the guy who can't climb 4 feet up a ladder, the guy who only wants to drive...Your idea of what a firefighter is is a complete joke.

    My idea of what a firefighter is understands that there are communities that simply cannot and will never be able to staff a department of 3o fit young members fully capable of performing every aspect of the job. That is the reality in rural America.

    I understand that members who can only drive, or wish to operate exterior have the same value as an interior member, and can be just as valauable when operating as part of a firefighting team.

    Again, if there were no such members most of the rural departments, both here in LA as well as in my previous location, VT, would simply not be able to operate on the fireground.

    To paint what a "firefighter should be" across America based on your small piece of the pie is unrealsitic. It's simply not the case in many places. A firefighter is anyone who operates on the fireground, even in limited capicities. If you want to have your purist view, great, but in many, many places the only way they will ever be able to operate is to be inclusive.



    The fact was that in many cases, my posts have nothing to do with any of the above, but there are 5 or 6 posters that always feel they need to take a pot shot even though it's not relevant to any of my posts in that thread. If you. or they, think that will drive me off, it won't.

    The facts are you behave like a troll on so many occasions that you have made yourself irrelevant in 99 44/100's of all the posts you make. I despise those that purposely bait you to drag you into topics as much as I despise your BS.

    Yup, that's me.

    Nothing will drive you off, you are a masochistic narcissist. Any attention is better than none for you, even negative.

    I have no issues with anyone diagreeing with any of my posts when relevant, and am always happy to debate why I feel the way I do. My vision of the fire service is not those who disagree with me. We need to accept that in many places, we simply cannot act in the way we have in the past, either due to funding, manpower, building construction or demographic changes. That may mean more civilian fatalities, which is tragic, but in many ways, unavoidable due the above mentioned changes, and as a service we need to accept that greater risks by firefighters will not change that, but will only result in greater firefighter injries and deaths.

    First of all, you drift more topics off topic with your idiotic ramblings over and over about abandoned buildings. Secondly, if you have not at a local board meeting expressed to the local board and citizens in attendance that you will not do interior attacks or rescue attempts then you are BALD FACED LYING t your community. Whether you believe they know it or not, if you haven't outright said it, the expectation is you WILL go inside to fight fire and save lives.

    Disagreed. But being such an expert in this locale, it's amazing that you can't prove that.

    I actually pity you, I really do. You are so out of touch with reality and so desperate for attention that you continue a crusade that virtually no one here supports. Sad, pathetic, and ridiculous.

    Funny, based on the PMs I recieve with folks who are for some unknown reason too scared to agree with me on the forums, I have to disagree.

    You are wrong far more than you think.
    We have different viewpoints and I find yours wrong. It is that simple to me.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #66
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    639

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Me too K-Fried. This is just nuts, it really don't matter where LAFE posts or about what someone has to start in on him. LAFE's M.O. is contraversial at best but this constant deluge gets depressing and tiresome.
    +1

    thischaracterlimitisstupid

  17. #67
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    If the opportunity were to present itself, which one would you rather have as your backup? That's an easy one for me. I generally try to stay away from LA's antics, but when he put my Union on blast, I got involved. That's not to say I agree with his posts. He has his beliefs, they are just not in alignment with the majority of the business. Where he thinks he's being progressive, he's willing to employ those tactics at the expense of the public's lives. That should throw a red flag up in your world too bro.

    I'll admit, I goof on this site more than contribute to it, but that is either because the topic does not interchange with my departments policies and procedures, or because someone like Fyred or yourself has thoroughly covered it.
    Snowball,

    I have always enjoyed your posts, even when we disagree. I can see a forum as a way to exchange ideas but the school yard bully crap gets old. I guess there aren't any Pierce buyers still around to kick and call "Koolaid" drinkers anymore. Geeze. Alienate half of the apparatus buyers and the traffic goes to heck. Who would have guessed?

    I know you seldom engage in the vitriol and often try to lighten things up. I also understand your point that I quoted. LA lost my backing with the wise crack about guys getting paid to sit in recliners. However, I am tired of the pack of wolves that follow people they don't like. LA would not be a big issue if he didn't get swarmed every time he posts. And, frankly, the only people who can capably judge his behavior are the ones who work with him on a day to day basis.

    The insulting and sanctimonious attacks are really getting old. To LA's credit, he has let the wolves be insulting and demeaning while standing his ground without resulting to childish taunts. Nonetheless, a person who resorts to personal attacks is generally someone who cannot intelligently defend their position.

    I am with the webteam on this call.

    Having five or six people who post on every single darned thread is out of hand. When those same people pick a target and wail on him, it no longer is a forum. If every thread is going to become a "beat up on LA" thread, start locking them up.

    And it is not just LA. The next person to ask about lights on a POV will get the same amount of vile and most likely, from the same pack of wolves.

    At any rate, I used to be able to find good information on these forums. Now they have all died thanks to just a few mouthy posters. Co-efficient of friction for a walking surface? I can name five posters who will immediately show up and not be able to add a single thing to the conversation but find a way to start an issue.

    It really is a shame.



    Personally, I think the webteam should limit the loud mouths with more than 3000 posts. Then maybe someone else might get a word in edgewise.
    BoxAlarm187 and islandfire03 like this.

  18. #68
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    630

    Default

    I see FHEditor is monitoring this forum.

    Do us all a favor and just limit personal attacks. It is a forum. Everyone should be able to state their opinion without being degraded. Anybody worth their salt should be able to persuade someone with facts rather than personal attacks. The forums have reached a statis, it can go right or wrong from here.

    Back channel nudging would be preferred. It doesn't have to be public. But, it sure would look better for the fire service if the biggest forum didn't look like a bunch of 12 year olds.

    Meanwhile, there hasn't been a post in apparatus innovations in a week. How about some of us adults moving there and actually accomplishing something?
    slackjawedyokel likes this.

  19. #69
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,427

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    I see FHEditor is monitoring this forum.

    for 5 minutes. Now he wont be back for 4 weeks.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  20. #70
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,427

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    I guess there aren't any Pierce buyers still around to kick and call "Koolaid" drinkers anymore. .
    Thats because they are among the biggest sissies of all- they are the ones that pick up their toys and leave the playground when you make them cry.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  21. #71
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    If you are saying "too many" in a utopian "one is too many" sense, then I could agree with you. However, I suspect that you are not talking about that. The fact is for the last 4 years (including 2012), the annual LODD total has been under 100 while the 10 years prior to that were all over 100 annually. Unfortunately the USFA site is down right now so I can't cite more specifically, but the percentage of LODDs from the things you listed is actually pretty small. Medical and Vehicular related events happen far more often than catastrophic events resulting in LODD.

    True. medical and MVAs are the biggest killer of firefighters. That being said I still do not accept the number of members that we are killing during fireground operations, especially given the fact that very, very few of those killed during those operations are performing rescue. Almost all, in fact a huge percentage of those are killed for property, and if you look hard at the incidents, most are killed later in the incident after the property has been clearly lost. The simople fact is as a service we need to be honest and recognize that many times we continue the fight when there is nothing of value to save, which is when the building is at it's weakest.

    As a service, we need to accept defeat much earlier. That will save firefighter lives.


    While you may be able to read about it everyday in some fashion, it is not necessarily occurring everyday. Firefighting is an ultra hazardous job and there's simply no way to do the job properly and entirely avoid all injuries and deaths. Yes, there are portions of the fire service that haven't quite gotten "with the program" yet and are still engaging in behavior that we know to be "too risky" or ill advised. On the other hand, a lot have and nowadays we tend to hear far more about the "bad stuff" that happens rather than about the ones that are "doing it right".

    The fact is our decisions and our need to take action in all situations contributes to it being "ultra hazardous". We always have the option to not go onterior, not attempt a rescue and back off from the incident at any time. And, yes, that includes situations where victims may be involved if they are no longer viable, or we simply do not have the tools and the training to safely perform a rescue, especially in technical situations such as water, ice, collapse, confined space and the like.

    Is that line of thinking cold? is it heartless? Does it fly in the face of the traditions of the fire service? Most would likely answer yes. But to simply keep sacrificing ourselves in situations which many times are hopeless from the outset simply makes no sense. We can't save everybody and there will be times that we need to say "no" even if every cell in our body, and the public expectations, screams "go".

    The time has come that as a service we need to state that we are the priority. And our actions on the fireground needs to relect that statement.


    You are correct, the numbers, headlines, magazines and websites don't lie. You on the other hand either do or are simply out of touch with reality.

    No, I'm not. Fires are hotter and burning faster. Buildings are weaker. Manpower levesl have decreased. Experience levels have lessened. And in many places, training budgets have been decreased. Everything that we need to be effective in high risk situations has decreased. it's time that we recognize that and adjust our operations to reflect the new reality of the fire service.

    And I don't believe anybody has said that improvement in these areas isn't needed.

    And until we can get meaningful improvement, we need to asjust our tactics and pull back from the way we are accustomed to operating.

    Maybe both of your departments do these things, but not all do.

    And it's not the state's job to mandate training levels. That is the responsibility of the fire department. if they want to assume the liability of poor training, it's their call. If they want higher training levels, once again, it's thier call.

    In a perfect world where every department would have equal access to training resources and facilities, I may be closer to agreement, but that's not the case, and to demand the same training levels of members who are paid to train and train while at work v. members who train in addition to fulltime employment, or departments with significant training budgets v. departments working on a shoestring with minimal resources is simply insane.

    I'm all for training. I am an instructor, but I realize that requiring across the board standards for all members and all departments is simply unrealistic.


    We fully realize this and it makes things challenging, but the reality in all of America is that the citizens expect their Fire Department to be able to perform like one - specifically being able to put their fire out and rescue their loved ones.

    And we have discussed this before. Most small communities know that thier fire department is limited in thier abilities.

    Yes, they have value as part of the "team" and philosophically all parts of the team have "equal value", however the reality is not all of the parts are in fact equally valuable individually.

    From a team perspective, every position on a football team is equally valuable because it takes all of them working together to be successful. From an individual perspective all of the players have value, but they are not all equally valuable. Part of that is based off performance, part is based on utility and part is based off the situation. Not all players at a specific position perform equally. Not all players have the ability to play more than one position or role on the team. If you need a quarterback, but all you have available is offensive lineman and a kicker, how "valuable" are they at that moment?

    Firefighting is very much a team sport and there may be value to having "position players", but it's hard to argue on an individual basis that a person who can only do one or two roles on the fireground is equally valuable as a person that could fill any role. It's also hard to argue that everyone is equally valuable when you need interior capable firefighters, but only have exterior or driver only personnel available for assignment.

    For the most part, we recognize that these individuals have value to the organization, but we also recognize that that value comes with the potential for real world limitations.

    Again, we realize this and understand it may not change. However, the issue isn't so much with what we think a "firefighter should be" based on our piece of the pie, but rather what the citizens' expect a firefighter and fire department to actually be. Unfortunately, we know that in too many places, the capability doesn't match that expectation. You can call it a "purist view" if you want, we prefer to think of it as "truth in advertising".
    Again, we have had this discussion many times. A volunteer department can only be as good as the community it draws ferom, and the department will reflect that population. Small communities with aging populations will have a limited number of members, that likely will reflect those age demographics. They must work with what they have, not with what they want, and as such, will likely have alimited number of folks capable of interior operations.

    There is no way to get beyyond that.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    For what reason? They won't even ban a guy who wished members of this forum to die in a fire.

    Get off your high horse before you hit your head, again.
    For what reason? I think firepundit stated it pretty well. Your constant quoting and retorts to LaFire have long gone past useful. We get it...you don't like him and you don't agree with him. That's fine. We know. He does a lot of stuff wrong, you do it right. Thanks for teaching us all. I will live a lot more years thanks to your all knowing fire knowledge. Your the best, your my hero, I am coming there to learn how to do everything the best it can be done. No one should ever try anything different or operate any differently. Your way is the right way.

    I'm done with this...I see the light.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    For what reason? I think firepundit stated it pretty well. Your constant quoting and retorts to LaFire have long gone past useful. We get it...you don't like him and you don't agree with him. That's fine. We know. He does a lot of stuff wrong, you do it right. Thanks for teaching us all. I will live a lot more years thanks to your all knowing fire knowledge. Your the best, your my hero, I am coming there to learn how to do everything the best it can be done. No one should ever try anything different or operate any differently. Your way is the right way.

    I'm done with this...I see the light.
    Apparently it is okay for you to lecture me but not for me to argue firefighting with LA. Gotcha! "You're the best Steven. You win!"

    I guess you didn't see my last response to LA...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #74
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    639

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Apparently it is okay for you to lecture me but not for me to argue firefighting with LA. Gotcha! "You're the best Steven. You win!"

    I guess you didn't see my last response to LA...
    It's just that on every thread it turns into the same ****. If you guys could even stay on TOPIC it'd be better. But once you or FWD start going at him, it only takes a post or two to get back to the burning car scenario or his size-up strategies, or FF1. It's LITERALLY the same **** regurgitated every thread.

    Again, I don't agree with LA 99.99999% of the time, so I'm not defending him. But it'd be nice if at least you guys some of the blame for making the threads unproductive. Hell, you guys have started multiple threads with the SOLE purpose of ****ing him off.....and yet you guys claim it's all his fault discussions get derailed.

  25. #75
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Apparently it is okay for you to lecture me but not for me to argue firefighting with LA....
    Ya, cuz it dies in one thread. I don't carry it over and over and over and over.

    It's really that simple.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. I love this Job!
    By SAFD46Truck in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-14-2004, 03:49 AM
  2. The Forums & Moderation (and In Moderation)
    By webteam in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-24-2002, 01:48 PM
  3. Replies: 30
    Last Post: 05-21-2002, 09:59 PM
  4. You'll love this one...
    By LtStevieB82 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-24-2001, 09:39 PM
  5. Forum moderation. How? Why?
    By Sand Creek Lynn in forum Firehouse.Com Site Comments
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-09-2000, 08:33 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register