And if I was a moderator here....you'd probably have been banned.
While you may be able to read about it everyday in some fashion, it is not necessarily occurring everyday. Firefighting is an ultra hazardous job and there's simply no way to do the job properly and entirely avoid all injuries and deaths. Yes, there are portions of the fire service that haven't quite gotten "with the program" yet and are still engaging in behavior that we know to be "too risky" or ill advised. On the other hand, a lot have and nowadays we tend to hear far more about the "bad stuff" that happens rather than about the ones that are "doing it right".
You are correct, the numbers, headlines, magazines and websites don't lie. You on the other hand either do or are simply out of touch with reality.
And I don't believe anybody has said that improvement in these areas isn't needed.Quote:
It's the same thing with apparatus accidents. Speed. Intersection Management. Lack of training. Again, the stats and the headlines don't lie. We still, as a service, respond far to fast to incidents that the vast majority of the time aren't, and never will be actual emergenicies.
Maybe both of your departments do these things, but not all do.Quote:
Maybe your department trains. Maybe your department requires certifications. Funny, both of my departments have minimum training standards and encourages certifications as well.
We fully realize this and it makes things challenging, but the reality in all of America is that the citizens expect their Fire Department to be able to perform like one - specifically being able to put their fire out and rescue their loved ones.Quote:
My idea of what a firefighter is understands that there are communities that simply cannot and will never be able to staff a department of 3o fit young members fully capable of performing every aspect of the job. That is the reality in rural America.
Yes, they have value as part of the "team" and philosophically all parts of the team have "equal value", however the reality is not all of the parts are in fact equally valuable individually.Quote:
I understand that members who can only drive, or wish to operate exterior have the same value as an interior member, and can be just as valauable when operating as part of a firefighting team.
From a team perspective, every position on a football team is equally valuable because it takes all of them working together to be successful. From an individual perspective all of the players have value, but they are not all equally valuable. Part of that is based off performance, part is based on utility and part is based off the situation. Not all players at a specific position perform equally. Not all players have the ability to play more than one position or role on the team. If you need a quarterback, but all you have available is offensive lineman and a kicker, how "valuable" are they at that moment?
Firefighting is very much a team sport and there may be value to having "position players", but it's hard to argue on an individual basis that a person who can only do one or two roles on the fireground is equally valuable as a person that could fill any role. It's also hard to argue that everyone is equally valuable when you need interior capable firefighters, but only have exterior or driver only personnel available for assignment.
For the most part, we recognize that these individuals have value to the organization, but we also recognize that that value comes with the potential for real world limitations.
Again, we realize this and understand it may not change. However, the issue isn't so much with what we think a "firefighter should be" based on our piece of the pie, but rather what the citizens' expect a firefighter and fire department to actually be. Unfortunately, we know that in too many places, the capability doesn't match that expectation. You can call it a "purist view" if you want, we prefer to think of it as "truth in advertising".Quote:
Again, if there were no such members most of the rural departments, both here in LA as well as in my previous location, VT, would simply not be able to operate on the fireground.
To paint what a "firefighter should be" across America based on your small piece of the pie is unrealsitic. It's simply not the case in many places. A firefighter is anyone who operates on the fireground, even in limited capicities. If you want to have your purist view, great, but in many, many places the only way they will ever be able to operate is to be inclusive.
I have always enjoyed your posts, even when we disagree. I can see a forum as a way to exchange ideas but the school yard bully crap gets old. I guess there aren't any Pierce buyers still around to kick and call "Koolaid" drinkers anymore. Geeze. Alienate half of the apparatus buyers and the traffic goes to heck. Who would have guessed?
I know you seldom engage in the vitriol and often try to lighten things up. I also understand your point that I quoted. LA lost my backing with the wise crack about guys getting paid to sit in recliners. However, I am tired of the pack of wolves that follow people they don't like. LA would not be a big issue if he didn't get swarmed every time he posts. And, frankly, the only people who can capably judge his behavior are the ones who work with him on a day to day basis.
The insulting and sanctimonious attacks are really getting old. To LA's credit, he has let the wolves be insulting and demeaning while standing his ground without resulting to childish taunts. Nonetheless, a person who resorts to personal attacks is generally someone who cannot intelligently defend their position.
I am with the webteam on this call.
Having five or six people who post on every single darned thread is out of hand. When those same people pick a target and wail on him, it no longer is a forum. If every thread is going to become a "beat up on LA" thread, start locking them up.
And it is not just LA. The next person to ask about lights on a POV will get the same amount of vile and most likely, from the same pack of wolves.
At any rate, I used to be able to find good information on these forums. Now they have all died thanks to just a few mouthy posters. Co-efficient of friction for a walking surface? I can name five posters who will immediately show up and not be able to add a single thing to the conversation but find a way to start an issue.
It really is a shame.
Personally, I think the webteam should limit the loud mouths with more than 3000 posts. Then maybe someone else might get a word in edgewise.
I see FHEditor is monitoring this forum.
Do us all a favor and just limit personal attacks. It is a forum. Everyone should be able to state their opinion without being degraded. Anybody worth their salt should be able to persuade someone with facts rather than personal attacks. The forums have reached a statis, it can go right or wrong from here.
Back channel nudging would be preferred. It doesn't have to be public. But, it sure would look better for the fire service if the biggest forum didn't look like a bunch of 12 year olds.
Meanwhile, there hasn't been a post in apparatus innovations in a week. How about some of us adults moving there and actually accomplishing something?
There is no way to get beyyond that.
I'm done with this...I see the light.
Again, I don't agree with LA 99.99999% of the time, so I'm not defending him. But it'd be nice if at least you guys some of the blame for making the threads unproductive. Hell, you guys have started multiple threads with the SOLE purpose of ****ing him off.....and yet you guys claim it's all his fault discussions get derailed.
Can I make a suggestion without being harassed?
Three new threads..............
1. Go / No Go on abandoned buildings
2. Stopping at vehicle incident/fire while not on duty or out of district
3. Safe or too safe areas of firefighting
That seems to be the main issues here. These threads can be started and can be discussed at length with those that wish to discuss them. I know what LAs opinion and practices are and I know what others opinions are but I am not sure about their practices.
I don't agree with many things posted here by many posters and I think that goes for everyone.
But isn't that why we are suppose to be here, to work out our issues and discuss topics to make things better? I have sent PMs to many people including LA that I may not agree with them but extremes from both sides as well as the middle need to be expressed to make things better.
Anyone can disagree but why can't it be civil?
Anyone should be allowed to post as long as it is not harassing or threatening.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
― Evelyn Beatrice Hall