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Thread: The Gun Control Debate.......Anybody else seeing this trend?

  1. #221
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    In both cases those that rushed the attackers had to wait until the individual expended an amount of ammunition larger than 10 rounds.
    Except in both cases the timing of their rush was of far less significance to the outcome then the fact that it involved multiple people coming from multiple directions overwhelming the shooter.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If the belief that a small magazine won't matter because of the ability to change rapidly, then there should be no problem with setting that as a limit.
    You're conclusion is invalid. My belief (backed by the data above) that a mag limit would not have mattered in an active shooter scenario has absolutely nothing to do with my belief (also backed by the statistics you provided) that I may need more than your arbitrary limit in a HD scenario.

    You're allowed to believe anything you want but even the data you've provided doesn't defend that belief.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd


  2. #222
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Except in both cases the timing of their rush was of far less significance to the outcome then the fact that it involved multiple people coming from multiple directions overwhelming the shooter.
    Regardless, it still occurred. The time allowed for them to act. With a 10 round magazine, that interval would have been shorter.

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    You're conclusion is invalid. My belief (backed by the data above) that a mag limit would not have mattered in an active shooter scenario has absolutely nothing to do with my belief (also backed by the statistics you provided) that I may need more than your arbitrary limit in a HD scenario.

    You're allowed to believe anything you want but even the data you've provided doesn't defend that belief.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There is no reason for a magazine larger than 10 rounds in either a sporting or home defense scenario.

    I thought this article was well done. I'm sure it will be dismissed as liberal claptrap.

    Your Brain in a Shootout: Fear and Flawed Instincts
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #223
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
    I thought this article was well done. I'm sure it will be dismissed as liberal claptrap.

    Your Brain in a Shootout: Fear and Flawed Instincts
    I only skimmed it but I didn't see anything I'd overly disagree with. Certainly shooting a firearm in a life or death scenario is not like shooting paper at a range. Certainly effective engagement requires training. That doesn't mean it is not achievable. Look at the OR mall shooting: http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-ma...183593571.html
    Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.
    "As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.
    I also don't think it would be the same in a school scenario. I wouldn't expect teachers to rush in like cops. But they could provide armed defense in place.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  4. #224
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Perhaps he can call Feinstein.. she might know. I think it has something to do with the "Shoulder thing that goes up".
    Now that is some funny sh1t right there!!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  5. #225
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Successful at what? I can cite two instances where magazine capacity was successful at allowing potential victims to overwhelm the shooter. In one case they had to wait for 30 rounds to be expended. They would have been able to do it sooner had there 10 round magazines been the limit.

    Please Google Jared Loughner and Kip Kinkel. I'm not doing your research for you.
    Posting the same 2 incidents multiple times is not the same as posting several incidents. Nice try though.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
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  6. #226
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So then you should have no problem with limit being set at 10 rounds since you just admitted since shooters have the ability to quickly change magazines.

    As far as a link, THIS one should help answer your questions.
    Does your thought process on magazine capacity extend to law enforcement officers? To include Homeland Security, Secret Service, FBI, US Marshalls, and any other state and federal law enforcement agencies I may have missed. Because unless it does, good luck convincing law abiding citizens they don't need them too.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  7. #227
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I also don't think it would be the same in a school scenario. I wouldn't expect teachers to rush in like cops. But they could provide armed defense in place.
    Maybe, maybe not. I don't have the expectation that teachers will have that ability 100% of the time.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #228
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Posting the same 2 incidents multiple times is not the same as posting several incidents. Nice try though.
    It's a great try given that you claim it is not possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Does your thought process on magazine capacity extend to law enforcement officers? To include Homeland Security, Secret Service, FBI, US Marshalls, and any other state and federal law enforcement agencies I may have missed. Because unless it does, good luck convincing law abiding citizens they don't need them too.
    No it does not extend to them. Their role is different. We've been through this before.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #229
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It's a great try given that you claim it is not possible.


    No it does not extend to them. Their role is different. We've been through this before.
    ...... I believe I now understand SC.

    "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry."
    -Thomas Jefferson
    SC is in favor of tyranny, as long as it's being committed by his party of choice, coincides with his beliefs, and as long as he doesn't think it will affect him.

    Thanks for clearing that up. Appreciate it.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  10. #230
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    ...... I believe I now understand SC.



    SC is in favor of tyranny, as long as it's being committed by his party of choice, coincides with his beliefs, and as long as he doesn't think it will affect him.

    Thanks for clearing that up. Appreciate it.
    They're giving it the old college try in this state:
    http://savejersey.com/2013/01/nra-ne...bills-trenton/
    Assembly Bill 3676 sponsored by Representative Angelica Jimenez (D-32) requires a psychological evaluation and in-home inspection as prerequisite to purchase firearm.
    It's a threefer. 2nd, 4th, and 9th all in one bill.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  11. #231
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    ...... I believe I now understand SC.
    Don't give up your day job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    SC is in favor of tyranny, as long as it's being committed by his party of choice, coincides with his beliefs, and as long as he doesn't think it will affect him.
    Interesting you quote a slave owner in their remarks about tyranny. Depriving someone of their freedom via a belief that a human being is the same as any other piece of private property is a good comparison. Tyranny doesn't get much more explicit than that.

    Please show where I advocated eliminating the ownership of firearms?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #232
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    It's a threefer. 2nd, 4th, and 9th all in one bill.
    On another thread, the Israeli model was put forth as an example of what should be done in this country. All that you mention is part of the process one must go through to own a gun in Israel. And the individual is only allowed to own one gun and never have more than 50 rounds of ammo in their possession.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #233
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post


    Interesting you quote a slave owner in their remarks about tyranny.
    Right back to the race card. Thank god I have the liberal playbook memorized now and I saw that one coming.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  14. #234
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    On another thread, the Israeli model was put forth as an example of what should be done in this country. All that you mention is part of the process one must go through to own a gun in Israel. And the individual is only allowed to own one gun and never have more than 50 rounds of ammo in their possession.
    Keep bringing that up. I admitted I was wrong in my belief of how their system worked.

    When will you admit that when this topic began you couldn't define an assault rifle properly? When will you admit you really had no knowledge at all of Federal Firearms law? When will you admit that you introduced other firearms incidents, the Travon Martin case specifically, that were totally irrelevant to Sandy Hook? When will you admit the broken record of the race card being played by you every single time you are getting your a z z beat again? You see I admitted I was wrong about the Israeli model of gun owner ship, you haven't admitted you were wrong even when met with overwhelming evidence. The anti-gun/leftist tactic of repeating a lie until it becomes the truth isn't working for you here...Welcome to the real world.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  15. #235
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Right back to the race card. Thank god I have the liberal playbook memorized now and I saw that one coming.
    How is that the race card? This makes no sense. I pointed out that you quoted a slave owner about tyranny. You do realize that slavery would be considered tyranny, right? You also realize that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, right?

    You should read up on the Founding Fathers. It's a fascinating topic.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-26-2013 at 09:00 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #236
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How is that the race card? This makes no sense. I pointed out that you quoted a slave owner about tyranny. You do realize that slavery would be considered tyranny, right? You also realize that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, right?

    You should read up on the Founding Fathers. It's a fascinating topic.
    Since you edited your post, I will respond to the unedited version first.

    Nope, I'm not touchy on it at all. You're the one who keeps bringing it up, methinks you lack the ability to have a rational debate, and back your side up with facts. Oh, that's right, it's impossible when you don't have facts to back up your side with.

    You should read up on lawful gun ownership. You should read up on Adolph Hitler, and how he convince Germany and Austria to willfully surrender their firearms. It's a fascinating topic. If you're too lazy to search it on your own, let me know. I'd be happy to provide you with some links.

    When you can combat Fyred, SPFD, Catch, myself, or anyone else who has posted FACTS and STATISTICS, with facts and stats of your own, maybe we can talk. Until then, you're just spewing out of your ***** like usual.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  17. #237
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Since you edited your post, I will respond to the unedited version first.

    You should read up on lawful gun ownership. You should read up on Adolph Hitler, and how he convince Germany and Austria to willfully surrender their firearms. It's a fascinating topic. If you're too lazy to search it on your own, let me know. I'd be happy to provide you with some links.
    Ha ha ha.....I wondered who was going to bring up Godwin's Law first. Congratulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    When you can combat Fyred, SPFD, Catch, myself, or anyone else who has posted FACTS and STATISTICS, with facts and stats of your own, maybe we can talk. Until then, you're just spewing out of your ***** like usual.
    When I've brought up facts and statistics they're ignored or countered with a scenario that is most likely unrealistic or with a claim that a statement is made that wasn't. When the three of you stop that type of response, I'll be more than happy to have an adult discussion.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  18. #238
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Ha ha ha.....I wondered who was going to bring up Godwin's Law first. Congratulations.
    You can say it's Godwin's Law all you want. Look at it, and think with your own brain. I only bring up things that are factually comparative. Unlike yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    When I've brought up facts and statistics they're ignored or countered with a scenario that is most likely unrealistic or with a claim that a statement is made that wasn't. When the three of you stop that type of response, I'll be more than happy to have an adult discussion.
    You haven't brought up any facts, you've brought up meaningless drivel in an attempt to counter logical argument.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How is that the race card? This makes no sense. I pointed out that you quoted a slave owner about tyranny. You do realize that slavery would be considered tyranny, right? You also realize that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, right?

    You should read up on the Founding Fathers. It's a fascinating topic.
    WIth that logic, we must throw out the entire Constitution and all the amendments, not just the 2nd.

  20. #240
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    SC, Let me ask you a couple questions.

    Do you have homeowners insurance? Car Insurance? Fire Extinguishers in your home? Why? Have you had a fire? Are you that paranoid that something bad is going to happen? Maybe, maybe not. But I can tell you, you have ALLLLLL of those things because you're prepared.

    What if the government said you can have auto insurance, but only enough to cover $1,000 worth of damage, because they believe that's a fair pay out in the accident Or you can have homeowners insurance, but you can't insure your $250,000 house for more than $18,000, not nearly enough to make a dent if your house burns to the ground. What if the government says you can have a fire extinguisher in your house, but it can only be a 2.5 ADC Dry Chemical extinguisher because the government thinks that is a sufficient size to protect your home from fire with.

    You see, that's what your proposals are doing. You want to limit magazine capacity because you think we don't need more than 10 rounds to defend ourselves. You want us to reduce the amount of ammo we have in our magazines, because that's what YOU think will help curb gun violence in America.

    If I came to you tomorrow, and said you can have ONE 2.5 ABC Dry Chem extinguisher in your house, and that's it, you're gonna tell me to go phuck myself, because not every fire can be handled with that little amount of Dry Chem.

    If you came to me tomorrow and said I can have no magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, I'm gonna tell you go to phuck yourself, because not every instance of self defense is going to be handled in under 10 rounds.

    Could you stop a grease fire in a frying pan with a 2.5lb ABC? Sure. Could you stop a fully engulfed room and contents fire with a 2.5lb ABC? No.

    Could I stop ONE attacker with a 10 round magazine? Sure. Could I stop 6 attackers trying to burglarize my home, and take my family, with a 10 round magazine? No.

    End of discussion. It boils down to be THAT simple. Don't restrict MY rights because it will make you fee better.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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