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Thread: The Gun Control Debate.......Anybody else seeing this trend?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimthefireman View Post
    Firemedic thank you for your calm and reasoned attempt to debate this important issue. It seems to me there are sadly many in the US who still refuse to believe it is an issue or one worthy of debate.
    Thanks, but I think you should've included SPFDRum as your comments apply to him too.


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    I think this a very good discussion thread.

    There a lot of good posts and I have yet read them all but will be. I need to post before I forget to what I was going to say.

    First, I currently, recently, only have one firearm. When my daughter was born, I guess you could say i was an overprotective Dad and just the thought of a possibility that my daughter would have found my firearm and had an accident kept me from having a weapon in the home. It has happened in our area BTW. I am in the process of getting another one, not because of a threat of guns being taken away but more because of home invasions and strong arm robberies in the area.

    I think a very simple point is possibly being missed. What about our criminal punishment system? Honestly, what would have happened to the a-hole if he hadn't shot himself? He would have been found insane and put in an institution where he gets better care than some people that work hard every day.

    I do not think they are going to take any weapons away from anyone. Criminals would still get guns. Criminals will still kill people. If the crazy a** criminals cannot find a gun they will use bombs and kill many more people.

    I do however do not believe that just anyone that can pass a background check should be able to own an assault rifle or a sniper rifle. This is an extreme example, but individuals cannot purchase grenade launchers.

    Our criminal punish system needs to stop pandering to these idiots and providing them an out and make the punishments severe and harsh. Forget this sh** about being inhumane or torture or whatever excuse they have. ACLU take a flying leap off Everest! I would also make it public. Let people see what happens to you if you do something bad. I would make their lives as hard, uncomfortable and painful as I possibly could. And that goes for a wide range of horrible crimes.

    OK rant off.

    I don't think they are going to take weapons away and reducing the clip size won't do anything. Heck people can make clips.

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    I do however do not believe that just anyone that can pass a background check should be able to own an assault rifle or a sniper rifle.
    The can't, in order to own an "assault" rifle, you must have a Federal Firearms License. Much harder, and much more regulated than just passing a background check.
    As far as a sniper rifle, my deer hunting rifle I used for years was a Remington model 700, bolt action 30-06, the same gun used by the military's of many countries as a sniper rifle. Why, not because it is capable of unfettered mass murder, but be cause its reliable. Now if are lumping the .50 cal into this, sorry. Again, you need a FFL.
    So believe it, not just anyone that can pass a background check can own an assault rifle.
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    We don't need more gun control, we need a judicial system with a set of nuts.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/28...est=latestnews

    From the article: "The federal charges carry a maximum penalty of ten years imprisonment, a fine of $250,000 or both."
    That's it? Lets start with it being the same as the crime the individual you provided the gun to.
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    SPFDRUM,

    From my understanding the FFL is required for any dealer, distributor, wholesaler, importer, manufacturer and other of the like not for the purchase of a assualt rifle, i.e. M16, or sniper rifle, i.e. M107. ( th eonly reason I knew that aprt was because I had a political history in college that was an avid gunsman and made weapons history a large part of his class). I think the FFL went into affect in the mid 1960's. I do not know if since then if it was expanded to include the purchase of such weapons by a retail individual, but I believe it only included the above mentioned parties. If the FFL does not include purchase for individuals then it should.

    Anyway, do I think banning these weapons will reduce anything, no i do not. I know it is enjoyable to shoot these weapons. Heck i would like to shoot them as well. I just don't think i would ever own one nor do I think just anyone should own them.

    I also had a 30-06 when I hunted. I beleive also it is one of the oldest weapons used by the US Army (1960) and I am pretty sure all firearms origins can be traced back to some military somewhere.

    But, trying to bring this back to topic, they will not come get anyone's guns. Besides, it would be a bad day for the people trying to collect them. or at least in the country it would be a very bad day. There are still families who depend on the guns to provide for their families, whether be a necessity or chosen lifestyle.

    However it does need to be brought up because if this countries law abiding citizens ignore the possibility of an all out ban and lay back then it will become harder to maintain.

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    The irony is the pro-gunners constantly wrap themselves in the intentions of the Founding Fathers. If they bothered to research how the Founding Fathers applied the 2nd Amendment, none in that group would get the support of the NRA. While they did not care to completely disarm the citizenry, the founding generation denied gun ownership to many people: not only slaves and free blacks, but law-abiding white men who refused to swear loyalty to the Revolution.

    For those men who were allowed to own guns, the Founders had their own version of the “individual mandate.” We know from recent history how conservatives like "individual mandates." They required the purchase of guns. A 1792 federal law mandated every eligible man to purchase a military-style gun and ammunition for his service in the citizen militia. Such men had to report for frequent muster where their guns would be inspected and, registered (something vehemently opposed by the NRA) on public rolls. We all know how well mandatory participation would also go over conservatives as well.

    In the late 60's the Black Panthers were armed with handguns and shotguns in plain view and proceeded to enter the capitol in Sacramento, CA. The establishment (aka white folks) came unglued. There were no shots fired, no one threatened. Yet the NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters were nowhere to be found supporting the Black Panthers right to carry firearms as a Constitutional right. In fact the conservative GOP establishment of the day led by a GOP Assemblyman provoked an immediate backlash. The day of their statehouse protest, lawmakers said the incident would speed enactment of a gun-control proposal. Conservatives pledged to make the bill even tougher, and added a provision barring anyone but law enforcement from bringing a loaded firearm into the state capitol. What was the name of the Governor that signed the bill into law? Ronald Reagan, the conservatives patron saint. Given the reactions to conservatives towards Black Panthers standing outside polling places during recent election cycles I doubt the reaction to them openly carrying firearms would be any different today.

    So by all means, let's embrace the Founding Fathers and how they applied the 2nd Amendment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The irony is the pro-gunners constantly wrap themselves in the intentions of the Founding Fathers. If they bothered to research how the Founding Fathers applied the 2nd Amendment, none in that group would get the support of the NRA. While they did not care to completely disarm the citizenry, the founding generation denied gun ownership to many people: not only slaves and free blacks, but law-abiding white men who refused to swear loyalty to the Revolution.

    For those men who were allowed to own guns, the Founders had their own version of the “individual mandate.” We know from recent history how conservatives like "individual mandates." They required the purchase of guns. A 1792 federal law mandated every eligible man to purchase a military-style gun and ammunition for his service in the citizen militia. Such men had to report for frequent muster where their guns would be inspected and, registered (something vehemently opposed by the NRA) on public rolls. We all know how well mandatory participation would also go over conservatives as well.

    In the late 60's the Black Panthers were armed with handguns and shotguns in plain view and proceeded to enter the capitol in Sacramento, CA. The establishment (aka white folks) came unglued. There were no shots fired, no one threatened. Yet the NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters were nowhere to be found supporting the Black Panthers right to carry firearms as a Constitutional right. In fact the conservative GOP establishment of the day led by a GOP Assemblyman provoked an immediate backlash. The day of their statehouse protest, lawmakers said the incident would speed enactment of a gun-control proposal. Conservatives pledged to make the bill even tougher, and added a provision barring anyone but law enforcement from bringing a loaded firearm into the state capitol. What was the name of the Governor that signed the bill into law? Ronald Reagan, the conservatives patron saint. Given the reactions to conservatives towards Black Panthers standing outside polling places during recent election cycles I doubt the reaction to them openly carrying firearms would be any different today.

    So by all means, let's embrace the Founding Fathers and how they applied the 2nd Amendment.
    So you get beat in one thread, and run to another to try and find more friends over here, huh?

    People are just as easily going to call you on your BS over here as we did in the other thread.
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    My views on the 2nd amendment have been verified by 2 Supreme Court rulings in 2008 & again in 2010.
    Dist. of Columbia v. Heller
    McDonald v. Chicago
    But I guess when facts fail, let's try race baiting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    So you get beat in one thread, and run to another to try and find more friends over here, huh?

    People are just as easily going to call you on your BS over here as we did in the other thread.
    Who beat me? You? FyredUp? That's a hoot. I detailed why I left that thread. Delusion being the biggest response amongst those who disagree with me.

    What BS did I cite here? How the Founding Fathers actually practiced the 2nd Amendment? How the white establishment reacted to the Black Panthers carrying firearms?

    Please be specific why that is BS. You agree the Black Panthers were exercising their rights under the law, right?
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-19-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    My views on the 2nd amendment have been verified by 2 Supreme Court rulings in 2008 & again in 2010.
    Dist. of Columbia v. Heller
    McDonald v. Chicago
    But I guess when facts fail, let's try race baiting.
    I agree with the SCOTUS decisions.

    How is detailing the reaction to the Black Panthers carrying firearms race baiting? You either believe in the 2nd Amendment or you don't. I'm only clarifying actual events that have occurred in our nation's history as it relates to laws and firearms. Can you cite a source that shows I'm wrong?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Who beat me? You? FyredUp? That's a hoot. I detailed why I left that thread. Delusion being the biggest response amongst those who disagree with me.

    What BS did I cite here? How the Founding Fathers actually practiced the 2nd Amendment? How the white establishment reacted to the Black Panthers carrying firearms?

    Please be specific why that is BS. You agree the Black Panthers were exercising their rights under the law, right?
    AWWWW MAN. We're more the tinfoil hat and alcoholic beverages crowd here. Can't we just let this thread die please. I can't speak for everyone but, for many of us this is a way to decompress after a day of the horrors of reality. That the shootings are terrible and a sensible dialogue concerning the issues which lead to them is needed I cannot disagree with. It would seem that need has already been dealt with in several other forums though. I don't wish to dissuade or annoy you, so please accept my apoligies in advance if I have, for that was not my intent. I would be willing to discuss some of the issues concerning the Second amendment and its associated societal impacts with you if wish in one of the other forums. Thank you.
    Last edited by Miller337; 01-19-2013 at 08:28 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The irony is the pro-gunners constantly wrap themselves in the intentions of the Founding Fathers. If they bothered to research how the Founding Fathers applied the 2nd Amendment, none in that group would get the support of the NRA. While they did not care to completely disarm the citizenry, the founding generation denied gun ownership to many people: not only slaves and free blacks, but law-abiding white men who refused to swear loyalty to the Revolution.

    For those men who were allowed to own guns, the Founders had their own version of the “individual mandate.” We know from recent history how conservatives like "individual mandates." They required the purchase of guns. A 1792 federal law mandated every eligible man to purchase a military-style gun and ammunition for his service in the citizen militia. Such men had to report for frequent muster where their guns would be inspected and, registered (something vehemently opposed by the NRA) on public rolls. We all know how well mandatory participation would also go over conservatives as well.

    In the late 60's the Black Panthers were armed with handguns and shotguns in plain view and proceeded to enter the capitol in Sacramento, CA. The establishment (aka white folks) came unglued. There were no shots fired, no one threatened. Yet the NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters were nowhere to be found supporting the Black Panthers right to carry firearms as a Constitutional right. In fact the conservative GOP establishment of the day led by a GOP Assemblyman provoked an immediate backlash. The day of their statehouse protest, lawmakers said the incident would speed enactment of a gun-control proposal. Conservatives pledged to make the bill even tougher, and added a provision barring anyone but law enforcement from bringing a loaded firearm into the state capitol. What was the name of the Governor that signed the bill into law? Ronald Reagan, the conservatives patron saint. Given the reactions to conservatives towards Black Panthers standing outside polling places during recent election cycles I doubt the reaction to them openly carrying firearms would be any different today.

    So by all means, let's embrace the Founding Fathers and how they applied the 2nd Amendment.
    You got your a s s handed to you over there because of your complete idiotic ramblings off topic and your inability to even correctly define the firearms you were speaking about. Your complete and abysmal lack of any knowledge of federal gun laws make you look like a complete an utter tool of the left and the anti-gun crowd.

    I started to read this post of yours because once again you choose to delve into unrelated topics in an attempt to divert from your true mssion, elimination of private ownership of firearms. the truth is you can't say you support the 2nd Ammendment and then say BUT...after that. If you say But after it you do NOT support the 2nd Ammendment.

    Name:  542014_475796749147512_367335825_n.jpg
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    You can't help yourself can you? You have to continually divert this into a racial issue. the last bastion of a liberal that knows that can't logically debate their side of the topic any further. Nice try, we all see through you.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Who beat me? You? FyredUp? That's a hoot. I detailed why I left that thread. Delusion being the biggest response amongst those who disagree with me.

    Yes, I did. You left because you knew you were looking stupid with your idiotic arguments that were so far off topic everyone saw what you were doing. Yes, you are delusional.

    What BS did I cite here? How the Founding Fathers actually practiced the 2nd Amendment? How the white establishment reacted to the Black Panthers carrying firearms?

    We actually agree on one thing here. I have read about the episode in Sacremento and the Panthers, at that time, were 100% within their legal rights to have those guns inside the Capitol as long as they threatened no one with them.

    Please be specific why that is BS. You agree the Black Panthers were exercising their rights under the law, right?

    I do. But I also believe you don't give 2 turds about their rights. You chose to divert the topic again by making it racial. Nice try, we see right through you again.
    I am not going to allow you spread your nonsense in this topic anymore than in the other one.

    Have a nice day!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-19-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I agree with the SCOTUS decisions.

    How is detailing the reaction to the Black Panthers carrying firearms race baiting? You either believe in the 2nd Amendment or you don't. I'm only clarifying actual events that have occurred in our nation's history as it relates to laws and firearms. Can you cite a source that shows I'm wrong?
    It's race baiting because you don't give a damn about the Black Panthers and you know it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The irony is the pro-gunners constantly wrap themselves
    SC has admitted he's anti-gun, but he wants to be shown over and over where he's posted it. Well, here it is. He's calling other people people "pro-gunners". That leaves only two categories for himself. Anti-gun and neutral. If you're neutral, you don't give a rat's butt and you don't bother posting. Whatta ya know? That leaves only anti-gun!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This looks like a watered down version of the playbook the conservative talking heads have been using. However, theirs doesn't seem to be a sequential guide.

    Ignore (actual) Facts that hurt your position, make up new "facts" to support your position, continue to repeat these new "facts" until people start to believe them to be actual facts, say it's Obama's fault, throw around labels like "socialism", "marxist", "muslim", "communism" and make irrational comparison to dispicable historical events and/or people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    This looks like a watered down version of the playbook the conservative talking heads have been using. However, theirs doesn't seem to be a sequential guide.

    Ignore (actual) Facts that hurt your position, make up new "facts" to support your position, continue to repeat these new "facts" until people start to believe them to be actual facts, say it's Obama's fault, throw around labels like "socialism", "marxist", "muslim", "communism" and make irrational comparison to dispicable historical events and/or people.
    Exactly why I refuse to align myself with either party.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-19-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  18. #78
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You got your a s s handed to you over there because of your complete idiotic ramblings off topic and your inability to even correctly define the firearms you were speaking about. Your complete and abysmal lack of any knowledge of federal gun laws make you look like a complete an utter tool of the left and the anti-gun crowd.
    You're funny. First you follow me here. Then you continue to be delusional about your knowledge of firearms that was contradicted by the FBI via a source you cited.

    I started to read this post of yours because once again you choose to delve into unrelated topics in an attempt to divert from your true mssion, elimination of private ownership of firearms. the truth is you can't say you support the 2nd Ammendment and then say BUT...after that. If you say But after it you do NOT support the 2nd Ammendment.
    Another one of your delusional syllogisms. If I don't support YOUR position on the 2nd Amendment, then I must be completely anti-gun. One can support further regulations of firearms and support the 2nd Amendment. At least rational people can do that.

    You can't help yourself can you? You have to continually divert this into a racial issue. the last bastion of a liberal that knows that can't logically debate their side of the topic any further. Nice try, we all see through you.
    How is pointing out the different reaction to how the Black Panthers were treated versus other groups race baiting?

    Yes, I did. You left because you knew you were looking stupid with your idiotic arguments that were so far off topic everyone saw what you were doing. Yes, you are delusional.
    Your dreams will never hurt you. But I won't stop you from believing in them.

    We actually agree on one thing here. I have read about the episode in Sacremento and the Panthers, at that time, were 100% within their legal rights to have those guns inside the Capitol as long as they threatened no one with them.


    I do. But I also believe you don't give 2 turds about their rights. You chose to divert the topic again by making it racial. Nice try, we see right through you again.
    How is pointing out the different reaction to how the Black Panthers were treated versus other groups race baiting?

    It's race baiting because you don't give a damn about the Black Panthers and you know it.
    Whether I care about them or not is not the point. Please try to stay focused.
    BTW, I liked your pictures with quotes from the Founding Fathers. I agree they wrote all those things. My point wasn't about what they wrote, but how they applied the 2nd Amendment. The two were very different. Sort of like how they believed in freedom while many owned slaves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbzep View Post
    SC has admitted he's anti-gun, but he wants to be shown over and over where he's posted it. Well, here it is. He's calling other people people "pro-gunners". That leaves only two categories for himself. Anti-gun and neutral. If you're neutral, you don't give a rat's butt and you don't bother posting. Whatta ya know? That leaves only anti-gun!!!
    More syllogistic delusion. I know you just can't help yourself. That's okay.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    BTW, I liked your pictures with quotes from the Founding Fathers. I agree they wrote all those things. My point wasn't about what they wrote, but how they applied the 2nd Amendment. The two were very different. Sort of like how they believed in freedom while many owned slaves.
    Just more of the same tired old blather.

    Move along folks. NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!
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