Buying Hose and Nozzles...

[jdlowndes]

If you could buy any hose (1 3/4" & 2 1/2"), what Brand would you buy?? Why????

If you could buy any Nozzles (1 3/4" Selectable, 2 1/2" Selectable, Cellar, Piercing ), what Brand would you buy?? Why????

Just looking to hear some input from around the country... Thanks!!!

[FyredUp]

I would buy Key Nitrile rubber hose in 100 foot lengths for both YOUR 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 inch. (Although my FD uses 2 inch) IF I worked in a busier suburban Urban FD I would buy jacketed Key fire hose simply for abrasion resistance.

As for nozzles I am VERY happy with our Elkhart Break-apart nozzles. We have a pistol grip shut off with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip and a 200 gpm at 75 psi combination nozzle tip. The only changes I would make to our set-up is to convert the 200 at 75 combo tips to 200 at 50 and replace the combo tips on half the preconnects with a 1 inch smoothbore tip.

For your 1 3/4 inch lines I would go with Elkhart Break-apart nozzles with a 1 inch slug tip and a 175 gpm at 50 psi combination tip. For the 2 1/2 inch nozzles I would go with 1 1/4 inch smoothbore tips. If you insisted upon having a combination tip I would get a 300 at 75 psi tip and leave it in the compartment for those times when it might be needed.

[WBFD25]

Just bought new hose, all Key brand. Our hose bundles (aka High Rise packs) are all Key Nitrile in 100 foot lengths; both 1.75" and 2.5". Handlines are all Key Eco 10. 100 foot lengths again for the 1.75" and 2.5". Only 50 foot lengths we purcashed were for our bumper/jump lines and for the hose box at the tip of our aerial.

For 1.5" nozzles we are running with Elkhart Break-Apart pistol grip (not my decision on the grip), 1" integral solid bore and a 75psi/175gpm Chief's Tip for each. We store the fog tip in the engineer's compartment except on our bumper/jump lines, which we leave the fog tip attached.

2.5" crosslays have Elkhart Break-Apart in pistol grip (again, not my decision) with 1 1/8" integral solid bores. No fog tips. We have 2.5" playpipes with stacked tips and fog tips on each apparatus, all of which are Akrons.

The hose bundles have 1.5" Viper nozzles with 15/16" solid bore tips.

All nozzles are set-up that we can extend any line by taking the fog or added solid bore tip off and adding line to the nozzle end if need be.

So far, we like the Key hose. We orded everything colored to match the discharge location for our engines and aerial. Nozzles, we ordered our 1.5" Elkhart's with the pistol grips, bails and fog bumpers matching the line color they are paired with.

Before we settled on the choice of nozzles, we invited both Akron and Elkhart to demonstrate their products. The members on my department choose the Elkhart over the Akron. Hose was done in a similar fashion, using area dealers to bring in samples instead.

[LFPDLT]

After extensive evaluation and testing we recently purchased and are awaiting delivery of Key FDNY spec 1 3/4", and Key Eco-10 2 1/2" hose. The FDNY spec provides very good flow and friction loss numbers, and kink resistance, and the Eco-10 flows well, and packs very nicely if you are somewhat limited on hosebed space. Both were also quite affordable, and Key was the most helpful of all the brands we considered in the testing process.

[slackjawedyokel]

Be sure to do your homework and buy American made

[FyredUp]

Be sure to do your homework and buy American made

Or Canadian perhaps. Be aware there is hose made in China now on the market so ask where it is made before you buy.

Also, let state something I strongly believe in. Any company or salesman that won't give you hose or nozzles to try before you buy should be eliminated from your bidding process.

[GTRider245]

Or Canadian perhaps. Be aware there is hose made in China now on the market so ask where it is made before you buy.

Also, let state something I strongly believe in. Any company or salesman that won't give you hose or nozzles to try before you buy should be eliminated from your bidding process.

Agree 100%.

We went with Ponn Conquest (Snape-Tite/All American) 1 3/4" and other than some coloring issues (warranty is covering) we love it. GREAT friction loss numbers, kink resistance and it packs well too.

Nozzle wise we went with Elkhart. Fixed gallonage Chief models for the fogs and single tips for the smooth bores. Each engine has a crosslay with a 175 GPM @ 50 PSI fog on one line and a 15/16" SB on the other. No pistol grips. For the 2 1/2" lines we have 250 GPM @ 50 PSI fogs and 1 1/8" SB tips. We run the SB on the lines and keep the fogs in the compartment. One of the first purchases of 2013 will be new 95 GPM @ 100 PSI fog nozzles to use when flowing foam.

Our pump pressures for 200' of 1 3/4" line with either nozzle setup is 120 PSI and that gets us anywhere from 175-185 GPM. Confirmed with a flow meter. For a 200' 2 1/2" line we pump it at 80 PSI and that gets us 250-260 GPM. Also confirmed with a flow meter.

Whatever you decide on, make sure to do like Fyred said and test stuff first. Also once you get everything on the trucks get yourself some flow meters and figure out what you really need to be pumping at. We have an engine at work that is 50 PSI different between the two crosslays just becuase of plumbing in the pump.

Good luck!

[FyredUp]

Whatever you decide on, make sure to do like Fyred said and test stuff first. Also once you get everything on the trucks get yourself some flow meters and figure out what you really need to be pumping at. We have an engine at work that is 50 PSI different between the two crosslays just becuase of plumbing in the pump.

Good luck!

I have argued this point at work for years. We have every engine and quint with all pre-connects pumping at the same pressure. It just isn't possible that engines that are 20 years old and ones that are a year old have the same piping and friction loss. Especially when you are talking about 3 different manufacturers.

Flow meters and an inline pressure gauge right behind the nozzle remove all doubt about what you are actually flowing instead of what formulas and theories say you are flowing.

[GTRider245]

I have argued this point at work for years. We have every engine and quint with all pre-connects pumping at the same pressure. It just isn't possible that engines that are 20 years old and ones that are a year old have the same piping and friction loss. Especially when you are talking about 3 different manufacturers.

Flow meters and an inline pressure gauge right behind the nozzle remove all doubt about what you are actually flowing instead of what formulas and theories say you are flowing.

You are not alone. I feel like I am talking to a wall at times about this subject as well. People tend to forget the key word in "theory of friction loss"- THEORY. As in has not been proven. The only way to know for sure is to test it. At work this is a moot point to an extent but at the volunteer department I have a little more pull and the rank and file took to the concept with open arms. We will be labeling gauges for their intended flows and pressures shortly.

I helped teach a fireground hydraulics course to area firefighters from various departments right before Christmas. After the flow meter demo they were ready to go overthrow the leadership due to the mass misinformation that all of their drivers were being provided with.

Gotta love convertin' folks!

[FyredUp]

You are not alone. I feel like I am talking to a wall at times about this subject as well. People tend to forget the key word in "theory of friction loss"- THEORY. As in has not been proven. The only way to know for sure is to test it. At work this is a moot point to an extent but at the volunteer department I have a little more pull and the rank and file took to the concept with open arms. We will be labeling gauges for their intended flows and pressures shortly.

I helped teach a fireground hydraulics course to area firefighters from various departments right before Christmas. After the flow meter demo they were ready to go overthrow the leadership due to the mass misinformation that all of their drivers were being provided with.

Gotta love convertin' folks!

My number 1 POC FD is partially there. Our first out engine has all the pre-connect gauges marked with pressures for the 3 flows we use. The "New" old Pierce we got will be done when the weather gets nicer.

Too many people take those firction loss formulas as gospel for all types of hose and it simply isn't true. You have to do the work to actually flow the lines with flow meters and gauges to get it right. I went round and round and round at work over this and finally just said frak it and walked away.

[jdlowndes]

To those of you who did the testing and awarded the KEY hose...

What other brands did you test?

Did you also test Conquest Hose?

Also does KEY Hose have the advantage of being mildew resistant if it had to be put up wet in a pinch?
(Reason I ask is we are a small department (Even smaller budget) and this will be pretty much the only hose we have because the current hose is in such bad shape that 90% of it is getting scrapped when it comes off the truck when the new comes in. Our current hose was used by a municipal department when we got it 10 years ago. So it really will not have time to properly dry. I know someone is gonna want to beat me over the head for putting up brand new hose that might be still wet from fire attack, but it really is one of my only choices. Im game to hear your idea if you have another one!!)

Lastly, A Big Thanks to: WBFD25, LFPDLT, FyredUp, & GTRider245 for all of your input and help with this topic!! The idea of testing the flow on each line as opposed to what the gauge says makes perfect sense now that you point out the plumbing differences. Just like you said, its what you were taught when you were trained...

[FyredUp]

To those of you who did the testing and awarded the KEY hose...

What other brands did you test?

I have used and tested several brands of hose. We knew from the start that we wanted nitrile rubber hose so that eliminated Ponn Conquest, Hi-Combat, and other jacketed hose. We tried Snap Tite, Angus, and Key. Key gave us more bang for the buck with our 2 inch hose.

Did you also test Conquest Hose?

I may be in the minority here but I absolutely do NOT like this hose. We have it at work for our standpipe packs in 1 3/4 inch hose and with the smooth bore nozzle we have on it it kinks and the end whips uncontrollably if you try to move your hands back to do a rapid up down all around style attack. We tried our 200 at 75 nozzles on it and it did the same thing, the only time it did not get mushy and whip was with a 100 psi nozzle on it. Several members in my house at work tried this hose and the results were the same for everyone. I don't care what the flow capabilities are that problem eliminates it from my choices of hose. We don't have that problem with our nitrile rubber Key flowing 300 gpm at around 40 pis through a 1 1/4 inch slug tip.

Also does KEY Hose have the advantage of being mildew resistant if it had to be put up wet in a pinch?
(Reason I ask is we are a small department (Even smaller budget) and this will be pretty much the only hose we have because the current hose is in such bad shape that 90% of it is getting scrapped when it comes off the truck when the new comes in. Our current hose was used by a municipal department when we got it 10 years ago. So it really will not have time to properly dry. I know someone is gonna want to beat me over the head for putting up brand new hose that might be still wet from fire attack, but it really is one of my only choices. Im game to hear your idea if you have another one!!)

MOST new jacketed hose can be loaded wet without damage. The issue isn't wet, it is DIRTY, especially if the dirt is grass, mud, cow manure, or any natural product that can mildew and old. Frankly, if you plan on reloading hose wet I would buy nitrile ruber hose. You spray off the chunks and reload it. Being rubber it will not mildew or mold.

Lastly, A Big Thanks to: WBFD25, LFPDLT, FyredUp, & GTRider245 for all of your input and help with this topic!! The idea of testing the flow on each line as opposed to what the gauge says makes perfect sense now that you point out the plumbing differences. Just like you said, its what you were taught when you were trained...

Exactly and trying to break the mind set of those that have "Always done it that way" can be a real problem.

Good luck. Really do your homework because the truth is this, the choice of hose and nozzles you make will be either a good one, or one that you will get beat up about for many years to come.

[WBFD25]

We tested a few hose types/brands. I recall testing Firequip Attack Lite and their Combat Master hose. Also Key's Combat Ready and the Eco-Lite.
Cost was a large factor and the pricing my dealers were giving me on Ponn, the Key was about the only one I could afford with the amount of hose I was looking to purchase. We also really looked at the weight of the hose.

If you spec fire hose that is mildew resistant, you are ok putting back damp hose, in theory. Be sure to read any specifications from the manufacturer, don't rely on the salesman for that information. Do what the manufacturer says and you should be well served.

On my department, unless it is soaking wet or in serious need of cleaning, we rinse it down at the scene and reload it for the next call.

I should mention, any new hose you get in, test it right away. I had four sections this year that had to be returned. Three were leaking where the hose and coupler mated up. The fourth was a section of LDH that had been damaged by a fork-truck in loading it for shipping. All hose was replaced, free of charge.

Probably one of the best points is be certain to hook up flow meter and pressure gauges on your lines to truly see what you're flowing.

[LFPDLT]

The other brands of hose we tested were firequip, National and Snaptite. Ponn Conquest is actually the hose we are replacing. In addition to being very expensive, the Ponn kinks pretty bad, and is also horrible to bed, it can be like trying to bend a 2x4. On the plus side it is extremely durable and has fantastic flows, but, when looking at the overall picture it was no longer the best choice for us. All of the other samples we tested were all in the same price range as the Key Big 10 FDNY spec, and Eco-10, but no one could come close to the flow rates we were seeing with thhe Key hose. We did not test any manufacturers "combat" hose as these are all out of our budget right now. Contact Key and ask for Mac McGarry, he is a wealth of knowledge on firehose, fire flows and also nozzles as he worked for Elkhart in the past. He got me all the samples I needed and came out to our department to help us test all the different samples. I can not give him enough credit. Hope this helps.

[GTRider245]

Mac was also a huge help for us when it came to replacing out nozzles. I was under the impression he was retired now. Is he working for Key?

[mcfdrichey25]

In attending many fire conventions and speaking with various hose manufacturers, recieving samples of each, flow testing, etc., one of the biggest determinates in GPM's is the ACTUAL diameter of the so called 1 3/4" hose. Many hose manufacturers are increasing the size of 1 3/4" to closer to a 1.87" diameter to increase flows and then telling firefighters that their "superior" production is what causes less friction loss and higher GPM outputs. Just one more thing to consider when doing your hose evaluation. My statement to the vendor was that if I wanted 1.87" diameter hose, that's what I would have put on the bid.....therefore, they didn't meet spec. Good luck and thanks for everyone else's input!!

[FyredUp]

In attending many fire conventions and speaking with various hose manufacturers, recieving samples of each, flow testing, etc., one of the biggest determinates in GPM's is the ACTUAL diameter of the so called 1 3/4" hose. Many hose manufacturers are increasing the size of 1 3/4" to closer to a 1.87" diameter to increase flows and then telling firefighters that their "superior" production is what causes less friction loss and higher GPM outputs. Just one more thing to consider when doing your hose evaluation. My statement to the vendor was that if I wanted 1.87" diameter hose, that's what I would have put on the bid.....therefore, they didn't meet spec. Good luck and thanks for everyone else's input!!

The real answer is just to bypass 1 3/4 and the magical oversized 1.87 inch hose and go right to 2 inch hose instead!