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Thread: Webbing - Looped vs Water Knot

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    Default Webbing - Looped vs Water Knot

    It seems everyone prefers the tying a water knot in ther webbing rather than buying a piece already looped (sewn), why is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBake5 View Post
    It seems everyone prefers the tying a water knot in ther webbing rather than buying a piece already looped (sewn), why is it?
    Flexibility.
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    Webbing is pretty strong. if you tie a waterknot, all the strength is maintained, especially if you tie the knot well and put in safety at the end.

    If it's sewn, that will work, however the strength of the webbing loop is reduced to that of the thread.

    I keep a 25 foot length of webbing in my bunker pants pocket, tied with a waterknot, and daisychained for easy deployment and to prevent tangling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyRescueTech View Post
    I keep a 25 foot length of webbing in my bunker pants pocket, tied with a waterknot, and daisychained for easy deployment and to prevent tangling.
    Thanks of reply, do you see any need for a length of webbing more than 25 feet?

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    Have never had the need for more than 25 feet, back when we used to tie our own swiss seats 25 foot section was plenty long. Like heavyrescuetech said, the knot maintains the strength.

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    It is too easy to tie a water knot, why would you have a pre-sown webbing? The pre-sown reduces the options you have for that strand of webbing; use in patient packaging, rigging or anchor around a continuous object. Both are around the same efficiency, minus ~30% for the knot or sewing.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyRescueTech View Post
    I keep a 25 foot length of webbing in my bunker pants pocket, tied with a waterknot, and daisychained for easy deployment and to prevent tangling.
    The webbing I keep in my gear for a drag strap is also pre-tied with a water knot, but I roll it and keep it in a medical glove to protect it from dirt and water. Pretty handy, you should look into that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    It is too easy to tie a water knot, why would you have a pre-sown webbing? The pre-sown reduces the options you have for that strand of webbing; use in patient packaging, rigging or anchor around a continuous object. Both are around the same efficiency, minus ~30% for the knot or sewing.



    The webbing I keep in my gear for a drag strap is also pre-tied with a water knot, but I roll it and keep it in a medical glove to protect it from dirt and water. Pretty handy, you should look into that.
    I have the same webbing in the same configuration and it works well...

    Would like to point out that from a flexibility perspective both sewn and pre-tied webbing have the same problems. A pre-tied water knot is probably going to be pretty tight and it would be difficult to untie in the heat of the moment. For all intents and purposes it is fixed in place as if it were sewn.
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    I would have to agree with the "HeavyRescueTech" and the rest of the guys, its just an easy knot to tie on the fly and its strong.Everyone in my dept is issued about a 20 foot peice of webbing, but we all have different places for our webbing and uses.

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    I have a 25' piece, looped with a waterknot, daisy chained and hanging on my Gut-Belt, I have another 20' section that is just rolled (no loop) in my pocket, and another 25' daisy-chained loop in my pocket....

    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman
    The webbing I keep in my gear for a drag strap is also pre-tied with a water knot, but I roll it and keep it in a medical glove to protect it from dirt and water. Pretty handy, you should look into that.
    That's a good idea. I think the one I keep in my pocket will get changed to being rolled up and kept in a glove.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I have a 25' piece, looped with a waterknot, daisy chained and hanging on my Gut-Belt, I have another 20' section that is just rolled (no loop) in my pocket, and another 25' daisy-chained loop in my pocket....



    That's a good idea. I think the one I keep in my pocket will get changed to being rolled up and kept in a glove.
    That's a lot of webbing Spidey.

    I 2nd the water knot and glove idea too. Both work great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjbrody View Post
    That's a lot of webbing Spidey.

    I 2nd the water knot and glove idea too. Both work great.
    I like duplicity. Plus I carry the one un-looped so if I need it that way I don't have to un-tie one of the other ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I like duplicity. Plus I carry the one un-looped so if I need it that way I don't have to un-tie one of the other ones.
    I hadn't thought of that, I'll give it a try.

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    Every firefighter should carry a long piece of webbing long enough to make a hasty harness around themselves with gear on. For some this will be the 25' and for some it will need to be longer. Mine is pre-tied with a water knot.

    I also carry a short 5' piece for tying off hose to a rail, etc. It stays untied.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyRescueTech View Post
    Webbing is pretty strong. if you tie a waterknot, all the strength is maintained, especially if you tie the knot well and put in safety at the end.

    If it's sewn, that will work, however the strength of the webbing loop is reduced to that of the thread.
    I'm a bit late to this party, but this is simply not true. Water knots can and will reduce the strength of webbing by 40-50%. A "Beer Knot" in webbing, which is a more time consuming and complex version of a water knot, will reduce the strength of the webbing by around 20%. Meanwhile, a quick look at specs listed on an online retailer that deals in webbing shows that sewn 1" webbing loops have a strength rating of 22 kN, which essentially equals 5,000 lbs. The same website lists MBS for 1" webbing at 4,000 lbs.

    If you doubt the strength loss I gave you above, you might want to pick up a copy of "On Rope" by Bruce Smith and Allen Padgett.

    All that being said, I would tend to agree a knotted webbing loop lends itself to more applications than a sewn loop.

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    Okay, you have a piece of webbing with between a 4000-6000 pound rating and you claim that a water knot reduces the strength by 40-50%. Here's my answer to that, so what? At 2000-3000 pounds where is the deficiency in that for everyday use?

    I guess I don't see the need for "A "Beer Knot" in webbing, which is a more time consuming and complex version of a water knot, will reduce the strength of the webbing by around 20%."
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    You're right. For most of the uses that we have webbing in our bunker gear for, it will be a "so what" situation as far as strength.

    My whole point was to correct the false statement/assumption that I quoted- especially since it was said in such an absolute fashion. I rock climb, so breaking strength and fall factors likely matter a bit more to me than a lot of the forum members

    And I agree about a Beer knot; while it is the strongest knot option I know of, it truly is a PITA to tie and definitely not something you will have the time to tie on the fireground. I mentioned it purely as a comparison.

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    We have used 1 inch webbing for "Hasty" harnesses for years with the webbing tied into a loop using the water knot. I guess I just didn't see the drop in strength, when it is far stronger than we would realistically ever need as a problem. Especially when the water knot is so easy to tie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I have a 25' piece, looped with a waterknot, daisy chained and hanging on my Gut-Belt, I have another 20' section that is just rolled (no loop) in my pocket, and another 25' daisy-chained loop in my pocket....

    Guess that would make you the "Web Master".



    That's a good idea. I think the one I keep in my pocket will get changed to being rolled up and kept in a glove.
    Like that idea as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavyRescueTech View Post
    Webbing is pretty strong. if you tie a waterknot, all the strength is maintained, especially if you tie the knot well and put in safety at the end.

    If it's sewn, that will work, however the strength of the webbing loop is reduced to that of the thread.

    I keep a 25 foot length of webbing in my bunker pants pocket, tied with a waterknot, and daisychained for easy deployment and to prevent tangling.
    Exactly whats in my pocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay, you have a piece of webbing with between a 4000-6000 pound rating and you claim that a water knot reduces the strength by 40-50%. Here's my answer to that, so what? At 2000-3000 pounds where is the deficiency in that for everyday use?

    I guess I don't see the need for "A "Beer Knot" in webbing, which is a more time consuming and complex version of a water knot, will reduce the strength of the webbing by around 20%."
    The only rebuttle i can think of to the "so what?" argument is shock loading. I know that on a day to day basis there aren't alot of applications, but thats not what we carry that equipment for right? We carry all that stuff in our pockets for when we really need it, and if you can save 20% in strength, why not? Now having said that, i have all my gear in water knots as well, but the discussion regarding the sewn webbing makes me think...

    I don't know, anyone else out there on the same wavelength, or am I in over my head here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CATruckie81 View Post
    The only rebuttle i can think of to the "so what?" argument is shock loading. I know that on a day to day basis there aren't alot of applications, but thats not what we carry that equipment for right? We carry all that stuff in our pockets for when we really need it, and if you can save 20% in strength, why not? Now having said that, i have all my gear in water knots as well, but the discussion regarding the sewn webbing makes me think...

    I don't know, anyone else out there on the same wavelength, or am I in over my head here?
    So let me see if I have this right...You rebut my "So what" by claiming shock loading, then turn around and say you do exactly as I do. Um, yeah, Gotcha!
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    You didn't get anything brotha, but maybe the idea that the percentage decrease becomes a little more relevant is something to pay attention to when you use your webbing for something other than hoisting a tool, like an anchor for a rope system. Just something to think about, we should all be open to constantly re-evaluating the way we operate in the fire service.
    Last edited by CATruckie81; 05-10-2014 at 02:15 AM.

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