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  1. #1
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    Default Re-Writing SOG's.....Single Family Dwelling

    Hey All- I am new to the forums but want to jump in right away and ask for some help. Our shift is re-writing our department SOG on single family dwelling fires. The old SOG was pretty basic and up for alot of interpretation. Consequently, we often seem to have 3 different fire departments at our firehouse. Here is a quick rundown about us

    Ohio City of 20,000
    One Station, 7 guys per shift with call back of off duty for fires.
    2700+ calls per year
    22 full-time including Chief
    Each shift has a Captain in a command vehicle
    Engine with Lt., Driver and 2 firefighters
    if up to full staffing: 2 man Ladder

    We are looking at addressing truck placement and here is where we are hanging up;

    We "bring our water to the fire" if we see smoke we lay in and do a forward lay from the hydrant and then the engine pulls past the house.

    We have tried different way to get the ladder to the front of the house but I am curious about how other departments do this.

    1.When the engine lays in, it basically block the ladder from following the engine in.
    Should the engine pull up short and the ladder come from the other direction and take the front?
    2.Should the engine NOT hit the plug and the ladder (Quint) lay into the engine and take the front of the house? (I don't like that option as well)

    our first engine has to lay in because off-duty help is not guaranteed and our next engine is from the neighboring city UNLESS they are on a medic run etc.

    How do other depts. do it?

    I really appreciate the input


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfirediver7 View Post

    We have tried different way to get the ladder to the front of the house but I am curious about how other departments do this.
    We're a pretty comparably sized FD to you, and we lead out with our Tower. This ensures the optimal placement at the moment of arrival, the engines takes what they get given the flexibility of hose. This being said, we know our first due and certain locations, mainly dead ends and housing complexes the engine leads.

  3. #3
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    We have a far larger department than you, but here, we will generally let the aerial run ahead of the engine if they're responding from the same station. In the event that the aerial is going to assist in another engine's first due, the first due engine will announce their water supply plan (which hydrant they're laying out from) so the ladder officer can make an educated decision on how to make his approach.
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  4. #4
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Personally, I would change your entire operation IF you have a good hydrant system.

    IMO, it is amateur and a poor practice to lay any line, but especially a supply line based on a smoke condition. In short, you really have no idea what you have got from down the street - light smoke could be an advanced fire in a large or tightly sealed structure and heavy smoke could be a car in the rear.

    I would still lead out with the pumper, but go to the address and still pull past. This will still leave the front open for the truck and allow the officer to make a proper size up. He can then see exactly what is burning and how much fire he is dealing with from seeing a lot more than just some smoke from down the street. Then he can make a determination to either use tank water or lay out - reverse lay to the next hydrant. Of coarse you would also have the option o the driver hand stretching when your close enough to do that.

    In addition to preconnects, we carry 3 loads in the bed - 1000' of 5", 750' of 2 1/2" loaded for a reverse lay - male but on top, and (2) 150' sections of 1 3/4" hose laid together with the both lead 50' sections and the nozzles bundled together into a shoulder load on top. The female sections are on the bottom and left hanging 2-3' out of th back of the bed. When everything is loaded, hook those to a gated wye and then to the male section of the 2 1/2" hose. This gives you the option to lay (2) 1 3/4" lines or bust the wye and lay a single 2 1/2" attack line. You have as many option as you have hosebed space, but that's what we do.

    This will accomplish everything you want, allow you to get water on the fire faster than everyone stopping and laying in, and you will have more manpower - when you lay in, you have to give a guy up at the hydrant. When you lay out, the driver can make all the connections to the hydrant after giving you tank water and he is staying outside anyway.

    It works, but it will probably be a hard sell. A lot of guys just can't get past the idea of driving past a hydrant - even though if they would try this, they would probably like it and see it works better for the reasons described above.





    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 01-05-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #5
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    when you lay in, you have to give a guy up at the hydrant.
    We get our 2nd arriving engine's driver to make our hydrant connections for us while his crew operates at the scene. Works excellent for us.

    And I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't see the harm in laying out for smoke showing. If there's nothing to it, pick it up. If it is a job, there's your line.
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  6. #6
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    We get our 2nd arriving engine's driver to make our hydrant connections for us while his crew operates at the scene. Works excellent for us.

    And I don't want to derail the thread, but I don't see the harm in laying out for smoke showing. If there's nothing to it, pick it up. If it is a job, there's your line.
    Like I said, most guys won't get it.

    Also, I said they would have to give up a guy because they don't have a 2nd engine. He said they rely on mutual aid when they are available.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  7. #7
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Like I said, most guys won't get it.
    I get MFD's choice to use reverse lays. I've used forward, reverse, and split lays successfully in my career, as I'm sure you have as well. My question was the "amateur and poor practice" view of the forward lay.
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    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I get MFD's choice to use reverse lays. I've used forward, reverse, and split lays successfully in my career, as I'm sure you have as well. My question was the "amateur and poor practice" view of the forward lay.
    It is just my opinion that it is a better practice to lay any hose - supply or attack, based on a good, on scene size up than speculating down the street.

    I would personally hate to have a 5" supply line on the ground only to find out I had food on th stove or something similar.

    Would you as a company officer, advocate determining your method of attack, your point of entry, the size of attack hose, calling for more companies, disregard responding companies, or any other decisions based solely on a smoke condition from a hydrant a couple hundred feet away from the fire building? I can only imagine that your answer would be no, so why apply that reasoning to determining if you need a supply line or not?
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 01-06-2013 at 05:59 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    It is just my opinion that it is a better practice to lay any hose - supply or attack, based on a good, on scene size up than speculating down the street.
    Absolutely. That could be said for just about all fireground actions.

    However, the OP is in a different position than those of us that have multiple companies coming in behind us on the initial assignment. When I'm first-in, I know there are 3 more engines, and 2 ladders coming in close behind. He has 4 guys on one rig, sometimes a 2-man ladder, and maybe mutual aid.

    Apples and oranges, IMO.

    If I was first-in with only 4 guys, with mutual aid a "maybe-maybe not", and had smoke showing, I probably wouldn't pass a hydrant. If I'm going to be operating with only one engine on scene for any length of time, I'd prefer it not to be a block away.
    Last edited by sfd1992; 01-07-2013 at 02:05 AM.

  10. #10
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Absolutely. That could be said for just about all fireground actions.

    However, the OP is in a different position than those of us that have multiple companies coming in behind us on the initial assignment. When I'm first-in, I know there are 3 more engines, and 2 ladders coming in close behind. He has 4 guys on one rig, sometimes a 2-man ladder, and maybe mutual aid.

    Apples and oranges, IMO.

    If I was first-in with only 4 guys, with mutual aid a "maybe-maybe not", and had smoke showing, I probably wouldn't pass a hydrant. If I'm going to be operating with only one engine on scene for any length of time, I'd prefer it not to be a block away.
    We are in similar situations, so I fully understand your point. As to the posters situation, with 4 guys, they will be able to operate 2 small lines or 1 large line, period. It would not bother me to have the engine down the street as there will be no more lines to pull. Anything else they need they could get off the truck.

    At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference. I gave one option that COULD be used to eliminate apparatus placement congestion due to laying in from the hydrant to the fire.

    Also keep in mind, that even with this hose load, the officer would still have the option to lay in with 5" if he wanted.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 01-07-2013 at 09:09 AM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  11. #11
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    Since you're coming from the same station, let the Quint take the block first. The engine can lag behind at the hydrant if conditions are ambiguous. With the staffing you guys have, it would be shame for tie up the engine for hose unnecessarily laid in the street when other runs could be coming in. The Quint can go first, spot the rig as necessary and let the engine know whats going on.

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    As we're generally a lay in department, our SOP is that the quint is first due on any structure call in the village. Outside the village, it's the first engine- UNLESS the address is to a known development or commercial where the quint would have a good chance of getting close. ( lots of rural houses with BIG setbacks...)

    I get what Robert is saying, though. We have a similar set-up of 2.5" with a wye, but ours is set up/meant more for long stretches. 400' plus 2 100' packs. Not really enough for a forward lay, unless the next hydrant is very close. We do carry a 5" manifold, and have used it at a large commercial fire or two.

    If, for one reason or other, the quint is NOT first in, communication is key. An alternate route/approach direction may be the most expedient way to get the truck close, w/o having to deal with a supply line.

    What usually happens is that the engine lays in to the quint, and the line(s) gets pulled off the quint.

    The OP didn't say, but do you have a chief or shift officer responding in a chief's buggy? In our case, they normally arrive first, size things up, and decide on what course of action to take.

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    Town near us runs a 2-man engine, 2-man quint, and an ambulance. Fire alarms and reported structures, the engine goes to the address (and I assume/hope pulls past), and the quint stands by the hydrant. If it's a hit, quint lays in to the engine.

    Not really ideal in any universe, but it is what it is.

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    """ [I]1.When the engine lays in, it basically blocks the ladder from following the engine in.
    Should the engine pull up short and the ladder come from the other direction and take the front?
    """


    No. If there's a double parked car there's no place for them to go because they'll be stuck between the engine and ladder. By going with the flow of traffic, you can chase any civilian cars out of the block.

    If the supply line is close to the middle of the street, the ladder should be able to go into the street without running over it.

    Our 1st due engine always pulls 2-3 buildings past the fire building.2nd due engine will back down from end of block, drop 5" line to 1st due, then proceed to hydrant.

    After waiting at corner for 2nd due truck to get into block, 3rd engine will back in (this way hosebed is facing fire), and 4th due engine will feed 3rd due same way.

    Yes, even if it's a W/F the 3rd engine will wait for the truck to get there. We have some narrow streets and once rigs are in the block there's no way to reposition so we have to set up right the first time.
    Last edited by len1582; 03-14-2013 at 01:37 PM.

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    Looking at this again and thinking why not put three on the ladder run it out first, have the engine stop at the hydrant and wait for the intial radio report before making aforward lay? This would at least let you see if it's a dumpster you were laying in to or an actual smoke condition from the structure. Hydrant spacing could make a huge difference here, if you have plugs every 500 ft. it't a non-issue, if you typically laying 500+ feet I'd hold back for a better conditions report. Best of both worlds in poor staffingh situation? Ladder easily owns the address and no picking up hose unnecessarily. On the down side, the ladder crew might have to make entry with the can to know if the smoke is from food on the stove or more. And nothing showing can change quickly so if the engine is a block out, you've reduced you crew on scene. Options.

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