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Thread: Junior involvement on scenes.

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    I should add most of the members are middle aged and rather conservative. There are a few members, some who were chief 4 times, who have been on longer than my father is alive, and he's 56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    I should add most of the members are middle aged and rather conservative. There are a few members, some who were chief 4 times, who have been on longer than my father is alive, and he's 56.
    ....uh huh, and.....??????
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    They're reluctant to change. Drinking beer and smoking in the firehouse is encouraged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    I should add most of the members are middle aged and rather conservative. There are a few members, some who were chief 4 times, who have been on longer than my father is alive, and he's 56.
    They're reluctant to change. Drinking beer and smoking in the firehouse is encouraged.

    Well youngster, I am 54 years old and none of what you have said is acceptable to me in any way. It doesn't sound to me like they are conservative, it sounds like they are set in their ways and see absolutely no reason to change. If I were to list all the changes that my #1 POC FD has gone through since I joined in 1977 you would drop over. These changes include equipment, operations, and what behavior is allowed around the firehouse. If you want details I would be happy to detail some of them for you.

    In Wisconsin smoking in a public building is quite clearly against the law. As far as drinking in the firehouse my #1 POC FD stopped that almost 20 years ago. Even though when we had beer in the station it was pretty highly controlled and locked up when no officers were in quarters.

    Seriously, if there is no hope for change I would look for a different fire department to become a member of because this place sounds like a train wreck just waiting for someplace to derail.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-06-2013 at 02:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    They're reluctant to change. Drinking beer and smoking in the firehouse is encouraged.
    Ok, so become part of the solution, instead of being a part of the problem.

    I'm beginning to think this is a trolling expedition.........
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    Sorry double post
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    I should add most of the members are middle aged and rather conservative. There are a few members, some who were chief 4 times, who have been on longer than my father is alive, and he's 56.
    My father joined in 1957 at the age of 17, is still an active member (although slowing down a bit...) and embraces new methods, tactics and techniques. He has held every line officer position except for Chief of Department. He has been a member of the Board of Directors for as long as I have been a member (23+ years now) and then some. He was part of the movement in the late 1970's to get rid of beer and alcohol in the firehouse, and has always been on apparatus and equipment committees that researched, tested and purchased new equipment that would better us an an organization. Additionally he has always been supportive of members attending any, all and as many fire schools as possible in an effort to better themselves, which would better us as an organization as they brought what they have learned back to us.

    I say again- what the fook is your point?
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  8. #33
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    It looks like a majority of the posters here have told you the same thing - become a leader within the department, and use that leadership position to effect change. Yes, this means you won't be popular, but who cares? The citizens expect a level of training and professionalism that you're department doesn't appear to be able to provide, so become the guy that started making change!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    It looks like a majority of the posters here have told you the same thing - become a leader within the department, and use that leadership position to effect change. Yes, this means you won't be popular, but who cares? The citizens expect a level of training and professionalism that you're department doesn't appear to be able to provide, so become the guy that started making change!
    And one does not need to have the title of, or be a line officer to be a LEADER.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Are you saying that your county or even your state has no Critical Incident Stress Debriefing Team available? ...
    CISD teams are available state wide. FF simply calls their county OEM and requests it. And yes, a FF can make the call, it does not have to be an officer.

    To NJHotstuff...while I personally am not a big fan of NJDFS, please go to their website. They have a wealth of information that may be useful for you and your department to review. Change starts small and grows from there....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    They're reluctant to change. Drinking beer and smoking in the firehouse is encouraged.
    Ah, yes. The social club that fights fires. Been there, done that. Sometimes you just have to hunker down, make change when it's available/possible, and wait for the day when those members are no longer a factor. They'll all die or retire eventually. All you can do is hope that you've got a small core of "true believers" who will still be around when that finally happens.

    Reluctant to change is an understatement - they'll go kicking and screaming, if at all, into the 'future.'

    I'm pretty sure that they're the reason why some formerly robust volunteer fire departments - dozens of members on the books - have dwindled to near nothingness. In reality, there were always only a handful of true firefighters in the department - the rest showed up for calls, but stood around and watched the firefighters put the fire out. They were certainly there when the beer came out after the call though.

    Do what you can. Be prepared for criticism and active resistance. If you can make a change or other improvement, do so. But sometimes you gotta be sneaky...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that they're the reason why some formerly robust volunteer fire departments - dozens of members on the books - have dwindled to near nothingness.
    Better to have a small group of firefighters than dozens of "members."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Silly question: whats the difference between them operating on live scenes whether they are part of an established explorer program, a vocational school, or a Department operated and fully authorized, monitored & insured program such as the one I described above?

    NFPA standards and a controlled environment. That should be obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJHotstuff View Post
    Unfortunately no counseling or mental health support is offered. Our department is so small and simple, there is no room for complications. An attitude of suck it up has existed since the forties when the JFD was started. Most seem fine, outwardly, fine. Kids don't want to appear weak or afraid. Some change obviously though, but nothing is done. I have no doubt some are changed. 16 year olds aren't ready to see many things. If they get private help, that's their business. A lot of it is pride in the JFD. Appearing weak doesn't sit well with that. The reason is because the JFD was founded due to all the men being at a war, and the young boys having to stand in that place, and there being no room for crybabies. This whole stepping up thing being the reason for allowing juniors to do so much to this day, including driving the rescue truck. I know most departments consider it insane.
    It IS insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Better to have a small group of firefighters than dozens of "members."
    Great minds think alike.. Too bad we're a dying breed brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    NFPA standards and a controlled environment. That should be obvious.
    Go back and re-read the description I gave of our program, including the one or two amended/added posts and please tell me what is not controlled about our program?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Go back and re-read the description I gave of our program, including the one or two amended/added posts and please tell me what is not controlled about our program?
    My original post was actually directed more at the OP, but I still am a firm believer that minors should never be allowed on emergency scenes. Lot's of guys get hurt and killed just from idiots driving too fast through a scene. Not to mention liability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    My original post was actually directed more at the OP, but I still am a firm believer that minors should never be allowed on emergency scenes. Lot's of guys get hurt and killed just from idiots driving too fast through a scene. Not to mention liability.
    Ok, whats the difference between a 17-year old and a 36 year old on the scene that gets hit by an idiot driving a car too fast through a scene? As stated, our members (including Juniors) are fully covered by our liability carrier for injuries. Additionally they are also covered (again by Pa Law) for workmans compensation.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    our juniors are not allowed out of the trucks on state roads, like interstates, anything with a number basically...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ok, whats the difference between a 17-year old and a 36 year old on the scene that gets hit by an idiot driving a car too fast through a scene?
    If it ever happens, the lawyers will give you a complete report on what the difference is. Briefly, if you are supervising a minor child who gets hurt, you are responsible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    But seriously though, as someone who saw numerous dead/ maimed bodies in combat at the ripe age of 19..we were engaged by an RPG Team" one night on patrol, we engaged and destroyed 2 military aged males which turned out to be 14-16..

    It is your chief's duty to ensure the physical AND mental well being of his men.. It's part of being a leader.. Well a good 1 anyway.
    It's 2013.. PTSD is for real... CISM is widely available... If your trash box chief doesn't believe in it then maybe someone needs to contact the mayor/council as to what he is all about..
    Number one, thank you for your service. I appreciate the lifelong sacrifice you have made for our country.

    Number two, excellent post. Your perspective reinforces the point that CISD etc. are appropriate for ANYone, and that those who would interfere with the proper care of our personnel need to change their ways or go to the house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ok, whats the difference between a 17-year old and a 36 year old on the scene that gets hit by an idiot driving a car too fast through a scene? As stated, our members (including Juniors) are fully covered by our liability carrier for injuries. Additionally they are also covered (again by Pa Law) for workmans compensation.
    Experience, training, and maturity

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Experience, training, and maturity
    Not in every situation, if that 36 year old is a high school drop out and can barely form coherent sentences.

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