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Thread: Are you illegally using CPAT?

  1. #1
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    Default Are you illegally using CPAT?

    I have been talking this over with some of my friends that are in the fire service in different departments and can't come up with an answer. SO before I go to the source I thought maybe someone here could chime in. Here is the issue.....and its a couple parts

    1.)Many fire departments use CPAT as a condition of employment. Many Job Listings have things such as EMT or CPAT as a prerequisite. From what I gather, a department will ask for a "current" CPAT card to be considered for hiring. Many of these departments do not issue the test but rather rely on local fire academies, tech schools, or community colleges to conduct tests periodically.

    2.) Most if not all tech schools, colleges, or fire academies only have Limited CPAT Licenses.

    Is the CPAT that many of these departments use ( that do not carry an IAFF CPAT license ) under copy right infringement? Are departments and above listed schools illegally issuing a true CPAT exam? Can these types of schools just hold random or periodic CPAT tests to issue cards to whoever passes?

    Here is what is on the IAFF Web Site for CPAT Licensure..I have highlighted and underlined some key items

    Under the current policy, authorization to use the CPAT under a full license will only be granted to fire departments and other employers that will be fully administering the CPAT Program and hiring fire fighter employees. Limiting the granting of licenses to only those entities that actually administer the program has enabled us to better ensure that the CPAT is only being administered in strict compliance with the licensing agreement. Third party testing organizations (limited to federal, state or provincial agencies; state/provincial fire academies; colleges/universities that conduct pre-employment testing; or pre-employment testing organizations) that only administer the physical testing portion of the CPAT may apply for a Limited License. Such Limited Licenses allow such third party testing organizations to use the CPAT for purposes of testing the physical capability of fire fighter candidates. However, this license is granted only upon the express conditions that the licensee may only administer the CPAT for a fire department that already possesses a complete and valid license from the IAFF. Limited licensees shall not administer the CPAT to any person without first obtaining a written agreement with the fire department to which the person is applying. The provisions of this agreement are outlined below.

    These Limited License organizations then operate under the license of the jurisdiction that is responsible for administering the overall CPAT Program. In addition, a fire department that uses another fire departmentís resources and facilities to test candidates must apply for a license of their own. The licensing policy ensures that the CPAT Program used by the licensee fully covers every aspect of the CPAT, including recruiting and mentoring programs, providing recruits with fitness guidance to help prepare them for the CPAT and setting up and administering the test.

    Any use of the CPAT without a license or any misuse of the CPAT program is a violation of the IAFF copyright on this program.
    What do you think??

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    This is the first cogent thread I've seen in these forums in months and none of you guys who can offer all sorts of high minded discourse on the best light package for your 87 toyota pick-up can't even offer some perspective from the many departments who it would appear violate the terms of the CPAT licencing trademark and patent?

    This is why I don't bother checking in here much anymore.

    FTM-PTB
    ATFDFF likes this.

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    And maybe FFFRED if you would have come in and offered more information instead of acting like a little male appendage that would have been more helpful.

    I didn't comment on this because I don't have enough information. I wanted to go back and talk to my Union President and ask him about this. My career FD uses the cpat, as do the majority in this area and frankly I have no idea whether they are using it under permission or not.

    So thanks for adding nothing to the topic. Have a nice day.
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    Default Cpat?

    The people who have the answers are at the management level.

    Most rank-and-file firefighters just do what they're told. If they have to have CPAT, they get it from whatever source is available that their agency will accept.

    The bigger question here is how many knew that CPAT was a copyrighted, licensed package with the restrictions listed?

    I'd guess not many.

    In fact, it's entirely possible that there are folks administering "CPAT" with no license whatsoever. They've got the guidelines and whatever other materials are needed, having acquired same through someone willing to share, and run the program on their own, possibly never realizing that it is a licensed item.
    Last edited by tree68; 03-04-2013 at 07:49 PM. Reason: additional comments
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    If one part of the official cpat is changed is it still cpat

    But still used as candidate physical ability test, in the hiring process


    Is cpat a trademark or only copyright ??

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    Because of where I'm at I have no possible way of offering any information to expand on the topic. Ours is a world unto itself. We administer the CPAT internally and all the proper licences are maintained to the best of my knowledge.

    Yet after seeing 160+ views I was startled to not see at least one question or comment offering some insight to what I would say could be and should be of great importance to many FDs out there (not to mention locals or the IAFF itself). I offered my statement as subtle commentary as to the lack of serious discussions as of late in my view that's all.

    While the scenario presented by the brother above certainly is well worth investigation....there should be greater concern over the apparent world of difference being illustrated between the historical physical abilities of probies entering the FDNY academy and these socially engineered, gerrymandered classes of slackers...

    In regards to the CPAT....well for all of those out there who think the IAFF has your back by creating that joke of an exam (whose stated purpose was to enable more women to pass among other things)...take a look at what we have slogging through our academy right now. Fatter FDNY recruits failing

    Who would have guessed creating an exam built explicitly to de-emphasize strength, agility & stamina and just so happens to coincide with a push to boost "diversity" at all costs would result in a bunch of persons who can't even begin to measure up to the lowered minimal standards that have now become accepted... surprise surprise surprise!

    FTM-PTB

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    tree68 fair analysis.

    I'm not sure what the demographic break down of the internals are for who frequents FH.com but I'll bet while management (staff chiefs and such) aren't well represented I'd wager to bet there are more than a few Union members and a fair representation of officers of said locals who probably should take more than a passing interest on this issue the brother has stumbled upon.

    Not directed towards your comment specifically but I think your statement in a general sense highlights my earlier observation that oddly the firehouse Kitchen lawyers who are so quick as to opine on every manner of litigation risk regarding helmets, turnouts, poles, responses, blue lights, techniques, tool mounting...etc. strangely have found their limits in Copyright and patent law!

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Is cpat a trademark or only copyright ??
    Copyright. License is $5K per year.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    We do not use CPAT at my combo department as the physical portion of the hiring process for career personel.

    We use an in-house agility test which includes a ladder raise, stair climb w/ load, hose drag, dummy drag, tool carry and block chop while in full PPE and SCBA. The event is timed, not pass/fail and the time will play a role in the selection process.

    My VFD also uses a similiar course for new volunteers.
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    As a Chief Officer for a combination department in charge of the recruitment and hiring program for our department, we use CPAT for our full time applicants. We participate in a regional hiring process program administered by the local technical college who has a limited license. We, as a department hold a full CPAT license under the condition that our physical agility test used for part-time/POC members does not replicate the CPAT program and or its name. The last I checked, we are the only combo department in the state to hold a CPAT license issued by the IAFF.

    I think one critical component missing in CPAT is an aerial ladder climb, which I have in our other physical agility test program for part time/POC members. It is amazing just how many candidates out there are terrified of getting off the ground!
    Last edited by Frosty42; 03-05-2013 at 04:28 PM.

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    Many large departments have so many applicants, they fail to vet the applicants who bring a CPAT card from another jurisdiction. I know one in particular that will accept a CPAT card and never look to see if the card was expired or if the issuer was accredited. Departments who are a it more on top of their game will have a team to work through these issues. The CPAT is supposed to be a national standard but I've seen many variances through the years.

    -some departments give the aplicants 8 weeks to prepare with 2 test runs and the final at the end where as others will count the test runs as their test if they pass. Others let applicants continue to come back through other 8 week practice runs mainly to get the demographics they need or want
    - You're supposed to have two proctors with each applicant, one timing up and the other timing down. I've seen anywhere from 1 to 4 proctors per test applicant.
    - Course layout has varied greatly between the many CPAT testing centers I've visited. This isn't a sticking point but worth the mention
    - Because the test has approx 70% fail rate, I know one large department who hired people and they were required to pass the CPAT test by the time they graduated but then changed that standard for the next class.

    Some of the sticking points open up the FD for a very large lawsuit.


    Should the IAFC/IAFF be responsible for keeping up with the jurisdictions and investigating companies who claim to e accredited?

    The copyright costs $5k/yr in addition to having an indoor facility to host it and the cost of the equipment with VERY limited suppliers who have the market cornered.
    Last edited by AFoster; 06-16-2014 at 11:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And maybe FFFRED if you would have come in and offered more information instead of acting like a little male appendage that would have been more helpful.

    I didn't comment on this because I don't have enough information. I wanted to go back and talk to my Union President and ask him about this. My career FD uses the cpat, as do the majority in this area and frankly I have no idea whether they are using it under permission or not.

    So thanks for adding nothing to the topic. Have a nice day.
    Yep, that sounded like something you'd expect from a desk jockey.

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    """"If one part of the official cpat is changed is it still cpat """


    So no dept can ask an applicant to climb a ladder or else it is cpat???


    http://www.iaff.org/hs/well/cpatlicensestory.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Yep, that sounded like something you'd expect from a desk jockey.
    !

    Dude, you really need to get a life. You chose to pull out a post I made OVER A YEAR AGO to start another one of your idiotic attacks on me.

    It is even more insane because nothing I said to FFFRED had anything whatsoever to do with you. Your desk jockey comment is laughable and I feel no need to defend my firefighting career or qualifications to a pot stirring troll like you.
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