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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Yardbreathing takes a toll on one's body....
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    We wouldn't expect anything more or less from you...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    We wouldn't expect anything more or less from you...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. .
    Did anybody say that? Did someone advocate reckless entry into an untenable structure? Was there an explicit statement made that we always go in, regardless of conditions? Are we all ready to be roasty-toasty marshmallows in a building that looks like the backdrop of an episode of "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?"

    No.

    (By the way, that sounds better if you read it as Ross Perot.)
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Did anybody say that? Did someone advocate reckless entry into an untenable structure? Was there an explicit statement made that we always go in, regardless of conditions? Are we all ready to be roasty-toasty marshmallows in a building that looks like the backdrop of an episode of "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?"

    No.



    (By the way, that sounds better if you read it as Ross Perot.)

    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.


    I consider an abondoned structure too be too hazardous to make enrty due to the unknown structural conditions and unknown stability, even without fire conditions. To me, that does make the building, if you wish to define it as untenable fine, too hazardous, even with limited fire, for interior operations without that KNOWN life risk.

    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    That is the situation in my career and volunteer departments in LA. That was the situation in my volunteer departments in NY and VT. And I standby my statements that in most fire departments in this country, that is also the situation.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.


    I consider an abondoned structure too be too hazardous to make enrty due to the unknown structural conditions and unknown stability, even without fire conditions. To me, that does make the building, if you wish to define it as untenable fine, too hazardous, even with limited fire, for interior operations without that KNOWN life risk.

    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    That is the situation in my career and volunteer departments in LA. That was the situation in my volunteer departments in NY and VT. And I standby my statements that in most fire departments in this country, that is also the situation.
    You make these outlandish statements with little or no proof to back it up.

    Do you even assess your vacant and abandoned buildings to check structural integrity, evidence of kids partying or squatters living in them?

    Maybe if your full time personnel in Bossier Parish were firefighters instead of caretakers, they could actually go out and check these buildings... or is it too dangerous for them to venture past the firehouse doors?

    My guess is a resounding no.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 04-02-2013 at 04:49 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #227
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    This is the 2012 list from Backstep Firefighter.
    The article is titled "Why We Search". There's only a couple that happen nationwide....



    Knoxville, TN Body found after fire in boarded up convenience store.

    Dayton, OH Man burned by fire in vacant house.

    Washington, PA Squatters suspected in starting abandoned house fire.

    Brownsville, TX Teen girl charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Southeast, NY Teens charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Los Banos, CA Homeless man and woman arrested; fire set in vacant house during fight.

    Wilmington, DE Body found after fire in vacant house.

    Rochester, NY Officials identify vacant, dangerous buildings.

    Staten Island, NY Firefighters injured in vacant/occupied house fire.

    Indianapolis, IN Vacant home ordered demolished after fire.

    Kansas City, MO Man injured in vacant house fire.

    Weatherford, TX Homeless man believed to be behind cause of vacant building fire.

    Cedar Rapids, IA Fire department takes news strategy towards vacant house fires.

    - – -

    Columbia, SC One person treated after abandoned house fire.

    Upper Marlboro, MD Body found in abandoned house fire.

    South Sacramento, CA Neighbors turn in squatter after house fire.

    Detroit, MI Body found in vacant house fire.

    Staunton, VA Vacant home allowed to burn.

    Oahu, HI Squatters injured in abandoned house fire.

    Shrewsbury, MA Abandoned restaurant deemed unsafe.

    Jeannette, PA Police, firefighters search for teens in abandoned hospital.

    Detroit, MI Long-standing vacant housing project slated for demolition.

    Battle Ground, WA Teens start mattress fire in abandoned nursing home.

    Hyannis, MA Teens sleeping in woods seek shelter; start fire in baseball broadcast booth.

    Colorado Springs, CO Man rescued from basement of church during 0400 hrs fire.

    Omaha, NE Body inside abandoned house fire identified as known homeless man.

    Omaha, NE Body found inside abandoned house fire rubble.

    Berwick, PA Vacant house fires worry neighbors.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned house burn.

    Southbank, AU Squatters, pregnant teen pulled from abandoned building fire.

    Detroit, MI Angels' Night fires hit 17-year low.

    - – -

    Quincy, IL City fire department begins marking vacant buildings.

    Connellsville, PA Health officer drafts vacant building policy.

    Atlanta, GA Teens seen running from eyesore building shortly before fire.

    Peoria, IL Roof collapses on building known for homeless people.

    Glouchester City, NJ Homeless man admits to starting three-alarm fire.

    Denver, CO Five dead in after hours fire at bar.

    Pottsville, PA New law targets dwelling upkeep, appearance.

    Colorado Springs, CO Abandoned building fire started by transients.

    Richmond, CA Fire likely caused by squatters.

    Dayton, OH Residents fear vacant house fires.

    Silver City, NM Officials consider vacant building registry.

    Canton OH Vacant house fires worry citizens.

    - – -

    Redding, CA Burned home known as common hangout for transients.

    Eubank, KY Vacant structure fires worry town residents.

    Canton, OH Vagrants jump from second floor during house fire.

    Augusta, GA Code violations at large, vacant mall.

    Ypsilanti, MI Abandoned home slated for demolition after inspection.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned home burn.

    Mansfield, OH Captain calls for demolishing vacant buildings.

    Canton, OH Vacant home finally torn down after fourth fire.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters burned in abandoned house fire.

    San Angelo, TX Signs of squatters found in abandoned building fire.

    Beaver Dam, WI Vacant building ordinance stalls.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters suspected in causing abandoned house fire.

    Fort Worth, TX Firefighters inisde during roof collapse at vacant building fire.

    Balto. Cnty, MD Historic designation keeps vacant building standing, burning.

    Slinger, WI Toxic chemicals found stored inside abandoned building.

    Manchester, NH City debates razing buildings damages by fire.

    Memphis, TN Five vacant houses set on fire.

    Frankfort, IL Cadets train with abandoned building.

    Laguna Heights, TX Family homeless after abandoned house fire.

    Pickering, ONT Owner pleads guilty to abandoned farmhouse, dungeon.

    Portland, OR Five-alarm vacant hotel fire, propert used as storage site.

    Memphis, TN Abandoned building fire causes citizens to speak up about neighborhood blight.

    - – -

    Bristol Township, PA Officials target vacant houses.

    Logansport, IN Authorities work to seal abandoned houses.

    Camden, NJ Program launched to identify dangerous abandoned buildings.

    Lakeland, FL Squatters take over home, scene of earlier arson, murder attempt.

    Seattle, WA Vacant homes seen as magnets for transients.

    Vallejo, CA Squatters linked to recent vacant building fires.

    Natrona County, WY Vacant buildings near school tempting for students.

    Indianapolis, IN Arson on the rise, many in vacant buildings.

    - – -

    Kannapolis, NC City votes to demolish vacant buildings.

    Concord, CA, Squatter admits to setting fire after arguing with other squatters.

    Nyack, NY City proposes marking dangerous buildings.

    - – -

    Mobile, AL Homeless people suspected in cause of vacant house fire.

    Detroit, MI Firefighters injured at vacant school fire, building on list for demolition.

    Lorain, OH City struggles with vacant house fires.

    Binghamton, NY Children set fire to vacant home while in basement.

    Philadelphia, PA Abandoned home collapses after years of warnings.

    Birmingham, AL Police officer charged in vacant house fire spree.

    - – -

    Schenectady, NY Foreclosure raid follows series of vacant house fires.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors upset about vacant, burnt home.

    Birmingham, AL City to demolish over 200 vacant homes after string of arson.

    St. Petersburg, FL Homeless woman dies from injuries after being resuced from vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Vacant home known to be occupied by homeless people burns.

    Salt Lake City, UT Transient arrested for vacant house fire.

    Prichard, AL Rash of vacant building fires likely started by homeless people.

    Detroit, MI Risk vs aggressiveness in decision to let vacant buildings burn.

    New Orleans, LA Vacant firehouses up for auction.

    Buffalo, NY Demolitons leave many wondering if vacant homes could have been saved.

    Detroit, MI Citizens and business owners sue neglected property owners.

    Chicago, IL Demo bid process for vacant homes becomes competitive.

    District of Columbia Neglected home of local activists placed on abandoned property list despite owners living inside.

    Walnut Hill, FL Dispute breaks ut at fire over who own vacant house.

    El Paso, TX Property owners react to vacant building ordinance.

    Detroit, MI Eyesore finally torn down.

    Bronx, NY – Building Department officials leave vacant building unsecured.

    Philadelphia, PA Organizations try to deal with abandoned buildings.

    Kansas City, MO Abandoned homes become nuisance for neighbors.

    -

    South Salt Lake, UT People found living in storage units.

    Omaha, NE Smoke is full; vacant home lights up after ventilation.

    Chillicothe, MO City plans demolition of vacant homes.

    Independence, MO Abandoned school burs; neighbors report teens inside many times.

    Detroit, MI Fire Commissioner propses letting vacant buildings burn if over 50% involved, to save budget.

    Seattle, WA Neighbors happy vacant home burns.

    Highland Park, MI Vacant homes in series of fires known as haven for squatters.

    Lewiston, ME Fire department takes cautious approach to dangerous buildings.

    Philadelphia, PA City looks at who owns vacant properties after death of two firefighters.

    Toledo, OH Citizens criticize city's tracking of abandoned properties.

    Galveston, TX Man jumps from abandoned house fire.

    Boston, MA City task force created after Worcester Cold Storage fire finds over 200 "fire traps".

    Huntington, WV Town questions why so many vacant homes?

    San Francisco, CA "Occupy" protestors take over vacant church building.

    Rancho Cordova, CA Firefighters pull two from inside vacant motel fire.

    -

    Irvington, NJ Squatter cause two alarm house fire.

    Detroit, MI One person dead in fire at vacant commercial building.

    Newark, NJ Vacant home owned by mayor catches fire.

    Chicago, IL Neighborhood activists say city didn't do enough to secure vacant house.

    Kansas City, MO Worker finds body while cleaning up after vacant house fire.

    Dayton, OH Homeless man accused of setting fire in vacant home.

    Holyoke, MA Mill fire raises problem of vacant buildings in Mass. town.

    Lexington, KY Child admits to setting vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors say vacant home is a hangout for kids.

    Danbury, CT City worries about increase in abandoned properties.

    Bradenton, FL Firefighters use code enforcement officer to identify vacant properties to use for training.

    Camden, NJ One dead, another injured, in vacant rowhouse fire; Building demolished after fire, neighbors had called for demolition earlier; known to hold squatters.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fatal fire raises concern about vacant properties.

    Beltsville, MD Vacant home, for sale, burns twice in two weeks.

    Philadelphia, PA Man found dead in abandoned rowhouse fire.

    Pinole, CA "Pot Grow" operation discovered in vacant house fire.

    Anderson, SC Abandoned building, site of fire and murders, receives condemned notice.

    Los Angeles, CA Second body found in abandoned building fire.

    Boston, MA Officials target illegal apartment buildings.

    Florence, SC Legislation urged to deal with vacant buildings.

    -

    Beech Island, SC Body found in abandoned housed fire.

    Memphis, TN One dead, another injured in vacant house fire.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fire Chief urges demolition of vacant hotel due to firefighting dangers.

    Paterson, NJ Body of homeless man found in boarded up, abandoned house fire.

    Columbus, OH City to demolish 900 vacant, abandoned houses deemed dangerous.

    South Bend, IN City to demolish 100 vacant, abandnoned homes.

    South Bend, IN City demolishes vacant home, scene of nine fires.

    West Mahanoy Twp., PA Department seeks identification system for abandoned structures.

    Waco, TX Body of transient man found inside abandoned house fire.

    Detroit, MI Money reserved to demolish vacant structures unused.

    Cincinnati, OH CIDS information helps firefighters with vacant building fires.

    Brazil, IN Two injured in blast and fire at vacant house; cooking meth suspected.

    Riverhead Town, NY Vacant for 15 years, town demolished vacant home where squatters had been a problem.

    Oklahoma City, OK Man found dead inside abandoned warehouse fire; total of three people were staying in the structure.

    Milwaukee, WI, Man found dead inside vacant house fire.

    Tulsa, OK Homeless man injured in vacant house fire.

    Manhattan, NY Homeless man killed in abandoned subway room fire.

    Freeport, IL Vacant building legislation tabled during overhaul process.

    Las Vegas, NV Foreclosure rate adds to worry of increased abandoned home fires.

    -

    Watertown, NY Squatter cited for starting fire to keep warm in abandoned apartment house.

    Seattle, WA Burned transient man found at abandoned house fire.

    Modesto, CA Neighbors blame squatters for vacant house fire

    Springfield, OH Squatter rescued from second floor of reported vacant home.

    Columbus, OH Firefighters push for ways to designate vacant homes and reduce risk of injury.

    St. John the Baptist Parish, LA Vacant apartment buildings in housing project, some previously burned, finally torn down.

    Lula, GA Man rescued from trailer fire; Locals state trailer had been vacant for three to four months.

    Detroit, MI Body of homicide victim found in one of many fires set in vacant homes.

    Knoxville, TN Evidence of many homeless people living in vacant warehouse found during fire. No injuries reported.

    South Bend, IN Family seen leaving abandoned home prior to fire; city unable to demo home since fire department owns structure.

    Minneapolis, MN Firefighters recall falling into basement at vacant house fire while searching for occupant inside.

    Colorado Springs, CO Squatters seen as cause of abandoned warehouse fire.

    Boise, ID Fire companies able to train inside vacant warehouse.

    Richmond, VA Homeless woman charged in fatal vacant house fire.

    Houston, TX Children blamed for starting fire inside vacant house.

    Hyattsville, MD Local media reports on problems with vacant homes in D.C. area comunity. Mutli-series report.

    Bel Air, MD Vacant landmark to be torn down.

    Chicago, IL Two squatters jump from second floor to escape house fire.

    San Jose, CA Firefighters recognize vacant home is unstable and use exterior operations.

    Chicago Heights, IL Police arrest five juveniles after property manager discovers them living in vacant house.

    Lexington, KY Neighbors say squatter was living in home, site of natural gas explosion.

    Dover, MN Fire department allowed to burn down house deemed "eyesore and public safety hazard."

    Los Angeles, CA Pot growing operation found inside vacant house fire.

    Jersey City, NJ Police officers and firefighter injured pulling sqautters from vacant building fire.

    Cincinnati, OH Cincinnati Public Schools fined for safety violations after fire in vacant elementary school.

    Pickering, Ontario Suspicious fire destroys abandoned farm home were "dungeon room" was discovered by authorities.

    Columbus, OH City struggles wth growing number of vacant homes; citizens ask that they be torn down.

    Columbus, OH Fatal fire creates public hearing on vacant housing.

    Chicago, IL Owner of abandoned building where two firefighters died and 19 were injured, held in jail, unable to post bail.

    Beckley, WV Vacant building destroyed in fire, owned by city, leased to congregation for church services.

    Spencer, OK Vacant since 1972, firefighters take defensive position at abandoned high school fire.

    Douglasville, GA – Officials meet with homeowners on possesson law.

    Irvington, NJ – Fire in a structure well-known for having squatters.

    Charleston, SC – Fire building well-known for having squatters.

    *http://backstepfirefighter.com/why-w...e-search-2012/
    IAFF

  8. #228
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Snowball .. I posted the links to 2010, 2011 and 2012 from Backstep Firefighter on this forum... Bobby chooses to ignore them as empirical proof that victims can be found in abandoned structures. Instead of admitting he's wrong, incorrect and in total denial of the facts, he makes up crap stats with no proof.

    That's all he's got... crap.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    You make these outlandish statements with little or no proof to back it up.

    Do you even assess your vacant and abandoned buildings to check structural integrity, evidence of kids partying or squatters living in them?

    Maybe if your full time personnel in Bossier Parish were firefighters instead of caretakers, they could actually go out and check these buildings... or is it too dangerous for them to venture past the firehouse doors?

    My guess is a resounding no.
    Actually we do.

    And the volunteers who live in the community do as well.

    Again, nobody here can remember any incident where people were found on arrival at an abandobned building in either my combination or volunteer district.

    Nobody ever remembered finding anyone in any abondeoned building in my previous volunteer department's district.

    Honestly, what is so complicated about the concept that it is simply not an issue in our area?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Snowball .. I posted the links to 2010, 2011 and 2012 from Backstep Firefighter on this forum... Bobby chooses to ignore them as empirical proof that victims can be found in abandoned structures. Instead of admitting he's wrong, incorrect and in total denial of the facts, he makes up crap stats with no proof.

    That's all he's got... crap.
    Oh, sorry. Thought this was a different link, the font looked different. My bad, credit goes to you Skipper.
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  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Snowball .. I posted the links to 2010, 2011 and 2012 from Backstep Firefighter on this forum... Bobby chooses to ignore them as empirical proof that victims can be found in abandoned structures. Instead of admitting he's wrong, incorrect and in total denial of the facts, he makes up crap stats with no proof.

    That's all he's got... crap.
    First of all, about half of those have nothing to do with folks being found in abandoned structures upon the arrival of the fire department at a fire incident.

    That is what we are discussing, right?

    Secondly ... Chicago, Columbus, Irvington NJ, Cincinnatti, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Las vegas, Minniapolis, South bend, San Jose, Knoxville, Detroit, Seattle, Las Vegas, Milwakee.......
    Not very much we have in common with most if not all of the places on that list.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #232
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    No problem... the more people realize the importance of checking out the buildings in your district and the fact than squatters and kids can and will be inside vacant and abandoned ones from time to time, the more they will be aware of what is going on instead of hiding behind the curtain of cowardice.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 04-02-2013 at 05:03 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.


    I consider an abondoned structure too be too hazardous to make enrty due to the unknown structural conditions and unknown stability, even without fire conditions. To me, that does make the building, if you wish to define it as untenable fine, too hazardous, even with limited fire, for interior operations without that KNOWN life risk.

    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    That is the situation in my career and volunteer departments in LA. That was the situation in my volunteer departments in NY and VT. And I standby my statements that in most fire departments in this country, that is also the situation.
    Get off your dead A S S and put you and your full time guys to work doing pre-plans and vacant building inspections. Even those poor, "I do it for my community but can't be expected to be held to any basic firefighting requirements" volunteers can get in a vehicle an go do some district familiarization. As advanced as that all my sound in your neck of the woods, for the rest of the fire fighting world, it's all the rage. Bonus, there is very little chance that someone may get a sliver or bump an hang nail in the process. So all your little pussified buddies or yourself won't get hurt.
    I will grant you one caveat; these people that go out and do district familiarization, vacant building inspections, and/or pre-plans may learn something. We all know how dead set you are against that.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually we do.

    And the volunteers who live in the community do as well.

    Again, nobody here can remember any incident where people were found on arrival at an abandobned building in either my combination or volunteer district.

    Nobody ever remembered finding anyone in any abondeoned building in my previous volunteer department's district.

    Honestly, what is so complicated about the concept that it is simply not an issue in our area?
    Honestly, it's because you take the attitude that because it has never happened to you, that it will never happen. So you in turn dismiss any training that would prepare you to deal with the situation when it presents itself, instead opting to let the building go along with anybody that might be inside. And your baloney about clearing a fire building from the exterior by looking in the window might go over well on the Explorer site, but in here it is considered criminal.

    You also take the callous stance that if someone were to inadvertently be caught in a fire, it is their fault for being in there wether it be from faulty smoke detectors, or any other accidental cause, that you will not even attempt a rescue because you can't even trust the people that you claim to have authority over their training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Get off your dead A S S and put you and your full time guys to work doing pre-plans and vacant building inspections. Even those poor, "I do it for my community but can't be expected to be held to any basic firefighting requirements" volunteers can get in a vehicle an go do some district familiarization. As advanced as that all my sound in your neck of the woods, for the rest of the fire fighting world, it's all the rage. Bonus, there is very little chance that someone may get a sliver or bump an hang nail in the process. So all your little pussified buddies or yourself won't get hurt.
    I will grant you one caveat; these people that go out and do district familiarization, vacant building inspections, and/or pre-plans may learn something. We all know how dead set you are against that.
    As I just told Gonzo .. WE DO.

    We do preplans twice a year on every commercial building, including abandoned buildings.

    We often stop by abandoned buildings, residental, commercial and storage, while returning from EMS call and fires, or while out on other errands to check for signs of occupancy, and our volunteers (in both departments) keep an eye on the buildings, and guess what we find ... NOTHING.

    And even if they did find signs, I would still not commit personnel under my charge interior in such buildings, in the event of a fire, unless I had direct, relaible information regarding occupancy AT THAT TIME.

    I'll make this very clear, one more time .... NO member of either of my department is worth the possibility of occupancy of abandboned buildings in either of my response areas without relaible, current information regarding occupancy at the time of the fire. The risks associatted with an abandoned structure are simply too great and the possibility of occupancy is too low to commit members in a fishing expidition to check for occupancy. It ain't gonna happen.

    If another officer wants to make that call and have the potential death of a firefighter on his soul, great, but I won't be leading them in, and if I'm in command, they will not be going in.

    If you clowns want to discuss that further, fine, but my primary job is to finish out the call with my troops alive and unhurt, in every circumstance.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-02-2013 at 05:35 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Honestly, it's because you take the attitude that because it has never happened to you, that it will never happen. So you in turn dismiss any training that would prepare you to deal with the situation when it presents itself, instead opting to let the building go along with anybody that might be inside. And your baloney about clearing a fire building from the exterior by looking in the window might go over well on the Explorer site, but in here it is considered criminal.

    Where do I state that I dismiss any training regarding abandoned building operations? We do search training. We do building construction and fire behavior training. We do interior fire attack training. All of which will be used if i come into a situation where there may be a life safety issue in an abandoned building.

    And yes, unless there is meaningful benefit to justify any operations in an abandoned building, I will not allow crews to make entry. if you wish to call that criminal, have at it. I consider risking our lives without meaningful benefits, criminal.


    You also take the callous stance that if someone were to inadvertently be caught in a fire, it is their fault for being in there wether it be from faulty smoke detectors, or any other accidental cause, that you will not even attempt a rescue because you can't even trust the people that you claim to have authority over their training.
    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    You are a yellow-spined, chicken-schit coward. It's that simple.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not very much we have in common with most if not all of the places on that list.

    Then why do you offer input, ideas and thoughts on this very forum, which imply that your thought process applies in my city?
    You continually make assertions which imply the rest of us are basically...cowboys...want-to-be heroes, or death wish wannabes, for searching vacant buildings.

    You want stats detailing how many occupants we find in vacant buildings? I call BS on your motivation. As far as our stats keeping, I have no idea. All I can say is that there are plenty of so-called "vacant" homes that exhibit as much evidence of occupancy as so-call "occupied" homes. Whether it is beds, clothes strewn about, furniture, cooking materials, mail, etc...
    We routinely conduct searches of homes that are in good neighborhoods, as well. Honestly, with your attitude regarding human life, as demonstrated thru-out this forum, it is truly a wonder why you do this job.

    We place human life number one, here. Be it civilian or other, our goal is to save human life. That is our priority. We minimize our risk of injury by training, pre-planning and knowing our first-due. No where in there is making excuses listed.
    SPFDRum likes this.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First of all, about half of those have nothing to do with folks being found in abandoned structures upon the arrival of the fire department at a fire incident.

    That is what we are discussing, right?

    Secondly ... Chicago, Columbus, Irvington NJ, Cincinnatti, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Las vegas, Minniapolis, South bend, San Jose, Knoxville, Detroit, Seattle, Las Vegas, Milwakee.......
    Not very much we have in common with most if not all of the places on that list.
    Sure, your little slice of the world may not have much in common with these cities, but once again, WE AREN'T ONLY TALKING ABOUT YOUR WORLD. Plenty of the municipalities on the list are not "big cities".

    I know you know this since you keep claiming to know what most of the fire service is doing on this topic.
    Jasper 45 likes this.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, nobody here can remember any incident where people were found on arrival at an abandobned building in either my combination or volunteer district.

    Nobody ever remembered finding anyone in any abondeoned building in my previous volunteer department's district.

    Honestly, what is so complicated about the concept that it is simply not an issue in our area?
    Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it never will. You have zero foreclosed vacant homes in your district? You have zero out-of-business businesses in your district? No homes tied up in fights among heirs after the death of their parents? Not even a house for sale whose occupants are already gone?

    Come on.

    I can't argue with those who say something HAS never happened, but I am very wary of those say something CAN never happen.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
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