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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #241
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Double post. But worth saying twice.
    Last edited by EastKyFF; 04-02-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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  2. #242
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If another officer wants to make that call and have the potential death of a firefighter on his soul, great, but I won't be leading them in, and if I'm in command, they will not be going in.
    If your incident commander tasked you to make entry for a search, would you refuse to obey the command? Oh snap, I forgot you would be nowhere near the fire...

    If you clowns want to discuss that further, fine, but my primary job is to finish out the call with my troops alive and unhurt, in every circumstance
    Look in the mirror, Bozo Bobby... you are the biggest clown on the forum. Every fire officer's job is to make sure that they start and end each duty tour and call with the same people hey started with. Sometimes that does not happen, it is part of the job.

    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    While people do die in fires, the rest of the normal firefighting world would move heaven and earth to try and save them. In your bizzaro world, people die in fires because of cowards like you who refuse to do their job... it is that simple.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  3. #243
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    Where does the mindset of doing nothing come from? When did it become acceptable for us to do nothing?

  4. #244
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    The house across the road from me is abandoned. The owner packed up, shot the bird to the bank, and moved. The owner abandoned the home; the bank is now in court doing the foreclosure thing. I’m pretty positive that there is no one living in the house, but should there be a fire, I’m know the bank would be highly upset with us if we rolled up, circled the house and said too bad so sad it’s abandoned. They would want us to fight the fire to the best of our ability to either save the house or to preserve evidence so that maybe the person that started the fire can be punished in a court of law.

  5. #245
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Where does the mindset of doing nothing come from? When did it become acceptable for us to do nothing?
    The moment some over-educated, over-thinking yard breather coined the term "everybody goes home", and then started to believe it.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Elevator Rescue Information

  6. #246
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    Seriously, you can't be this damn stupid. And since I can't believe even you are this damn stupid the only other alternative is you are a TROLL. When you constantly post outfight LIES about what people have said there can be no other explanation.

    For the millionth time, what is it about "IF STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS AND EXTENT OF THE FIRE ALLOW, A SEARCH AND POSSIBLE INTERIOR FIRE ATTACK WILL BE DONE" that you simply can't comprehend? No one is saying don't do a size-up, no one is saying don't do a risk versus reward profile, no one is saying close your eyes, pull up your collar and do a suicidal Banzai charge into ANY building. So how about you stop posting nonsense and LIES, for one topic here? How about just once you give up being the narcissitic troll that you always are?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  7. #247
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.

    Then YOU don't have to go in. Even if little Betty Lou Who is three steps inside the door and you can see her there. YOU can leave her to die since your lack of conscience or human compassion would allow you to do that. You see NO ONE other than you gives a tinker's damn what you do in Bossier Parrish or the Whoville volly FD you are a member of. The issue is you telling everyone else what to do when it is none of your fracking business.

    I consider an abondoned structure too be too hazardous to make enrty due to the unknown structural conditions and unknown stability, even without fire conditions. To me, that does make the building, if you wish to define it as untenable fine, too hazardous, even with limited fire, for interior operations without that KNOWN life risk.

    THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO IN THERE. NO ONE TOLD YOU YOU HAVE TO. Yet you have told everyone else what to do.

    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    If they are so worried about being injured or killed, to the point of being unable to act to save the citizens they supposedly protect, then they should quit and stop pretending to be firefighters.

    That is the situation in my career and volunteer departments in LA. That was the situation in my volunteer departments in NY and VT. And I standby my statements that in most fire departments in this country, that is also the situation.

    PROVE IT. That's right PROVE IT. You call for proof of everything and yet all you do is post made up statistics and BS lies. You have been vastly outnumbered here by people that say YOU ARE WRONG. So let's see some proof of your bold statement. Otherwise I suggest you stop lying and change your statement to say the few FDs I have been on didn't enter those structures. You see that then would be true and have a shred of credibility, which by the way would be something new for you.
    If you weren't so pathetic you would be funny.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-03-2013 at 08:32 AM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  8. #248
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually we do.

    And the volunteers who live in the community do as well.

    Again, nobody here can remember any incident where people were found on arrival at an abandobned building in either my combination or volunteer district.

    Nobody ever remembered finding anyone in any abondeoned building in my previous volunteer department's district.

    Honestly, what is so complicated about the concept that it is simply not an issue in our area?
    Nothing is so complicated about what goes on in your area. What is so complicated about me and others saying we don't care what you do, now shut up about what we do. There that was easy.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #249
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    The fact that you are so damn cavalier is sickening. Once again, I actually pity you...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    If your incident commander tasked you to make entry for a search, would you refuse to obey the command? Oh snap, I forgot you would be nowhere near the fire...

    If I felt that the order was dangerous to my crew, yes, I would decline to take them in.



    Look in the mirror, Bozo Bobby... you are the biggest clown on the forum. Every fire officer's job is to make sure that they start and end each duty tour and call with the same people hey started with. Sometimes that does not happen, it is part of the job.

    Wrong. The fact is that we do have a resposnibility to make decisions that do not endanger our personnel. Injuries are not part of the job, and certainly the death of a firefighter is not part of the job. I guess that is where we have a fundamental disagreement.



    While people do die in fires, the rest of the normal firefighting world would move heaven and earth to try and save them. In your bizzaro world, people die in fires because of cowards like you who refuse to do their job... it is that simple.

    Most folks that die in fires are dead long bfore we arrive, and that is especially true in the rural world. The fact is we as as ervice have a very difficult time accepting that and often make attempts to rescue folks tha likely have already died, and we get hurt or in some cases killed when there is simply no need.

    I have no issue with "writing off" a victim, as some of you like to call it, that my size-up indicates is likely dead to prevent injuries to my crew. Injuries are not part of the job. And that that is espcially true in situations that likely we have arrived to late to change the outcome.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #251
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Wrong. The fact is that we do have a resposnibility to make decisions that do not endanger our personnel. Injuries are not part of the job, and certainly the death of a firefighter is not part of the job. I guess that is where we have a fundamental disagreement.
    Bobby... did you ever read the warning labels inside of a fire helmet? I am looking at the Cairns N6A that I passed onto my son when he graduated from the Massachusetts Fire Academy Call/Volunteer Class #34. Inside the helmet, on the impact cap is he following statement:

    DANGER
    Do not use this helmet until you read and understand the the information booklet,
    FIREFIGHTING IS A DANGEROUS ACTIVITY.
    YOU MAY BE KILLED OR INJURED WHILE USING THIS PRODUCT
    The only way to guarantee that anyone will not be injured or killed in the performance of firefighting duties is to not be a firefighter.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bobby... did you ever read the warning labels inside of a fire helmet? I am looking at the Cairns N6A that I passed onto my son when he graduated from the Massachusetts Fire Academy Call/Volunteer Class #34. Inside the helmet, on the impact cap is he following statement:



    The only way to guarantee that anyone will not be injured or killed in the performance of firefighting duties is to not be a firefighter.
    And on that we will always disagree.

    Again, if you consider putting members into situations where there is risk but no significant benefit, such as "saving" an abandoned structure, or even searching an abandoned structure when there is absolutly no history of occupancy issues in that area, have at it, but I for one, will have no part of putting my members, especially volunteer members, into that situation.

    And yes, I do everything I can to garantee that my members will not be hurt, which at times, means being extremly conservative in how I operate.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Seriously, you can't be this damn stupid. And since I can't believe even you are this damn stupid the only other alternative is you are a TROLL. When you constantly post outfight LIES about what people have said there can be no other explanation.

    For the millionth time, what is it about "IF STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS AND EXTENT OF THE FIRE ALLOW, A SEARCH AND POSSIBLE INTERIOR FIRE ATTACK WILL BE DONE" that you simply can't comprehend? No one is saying don't do a size-up, no one is saying don't do a risk versus reward profile, no one is saying close your eyes, pull up your collar and do a suicidal Banzai charge into ANY building. So how about you stop posting nonsense and LIES, for one topic here? How about just once you give up being the narcissitic troll that you always are?
    And again where did I say any of that was the case?

    The bottom line to me is that there are structural issues that may not be visible during the size-up from the exterior. There are structural issues that may not be visible in the smoke. And there are structural issues that may not be apparent until the members step on that weak floor or apply water to that weak ceiling.

    Again, to many unknowns for too little potential benefit in my area. If you want to risk a firefighter injury for a standing dumpster, have at it.

    I have already done my risk assessment. It's simply not worth making entry unless there is a current, credible and relaible report of or indicators of occupany. Without that, there is simply no reason for me to order crews interior.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #254
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    Posted by LaFireEducator
    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    Posted by Fryed
    If they are so worried about being injured or killed, to the point of being unable to act to save the citizens they supposedly protect, then they should quit and stop pretending to be firefighters.



    I doubt they are as worried about being killed or injured as I am about thier safety, but, that's my job as the senior man or the officer. It's my job to be the adult in the room and stop them when the situation, in my estimation, presents significant hazard or risk beyond the potential benefit.

    There have been times when they have been damn pi**ed that I had them backoff from a fire. There have been times that they have been pi**ed that I told them to slow down, or come to a complete stop at that red light because they felt they needed to get there NOW. But that's my responsbility. To see the big picture that they may not see and yes, keep them from getting hurt even though they may want to make entry or be more aggressive.

    Yes, I am the adult in the room. And it really doesn't matter what they want to do.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-03-2013 at 10:17 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #255
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Posed by Bobby
    Again, if you consider putting members into situations where there is risk but no significant benefit, such as "saving" an abandoned structure, or even searching an abandoned structure when there is absolutly no history of occupancy issues in that area, have at it, but I for one, will have no part of putting my members, especially volunteer members, into that situation
    I think I will place a call to the Air Force and see if I can borrow the use of a B1B Lancer and a MOAB bunker buster bomb to try and get something through your thick skull...

    NOBODY IS ADVOCATING GOING ON A SUICIDE MISSION. IF A STRUCTURE IS FULLY INVOLVED OR HAS ALREADY COLLAPSED WE WILL NOT ENTER.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  16. #256
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    The moment some over-educated, over-thinking yard breather coined the term "everybody goes home", and then started to believe it.
    I love these guys. They parade around the talk circuit and spew this stupid philosophy in training rooms and academies across the nation. They get their jollies thinking they are saving the entire fire service from itself. The worst part about these guys, however, is their arrogance and their tendency to fault firefighters who dared take chances for their fellow man and lost their lives in the process, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the incident. They always find some way to place the blame on the dead firefighter. They must, you see, in order to continue validating their ideas and "solutions." What they just don't seem to understand is that I, and many others like me, are quite willing to take those chances. It's who I am...and I like it. My family understands. My son understands...as much as an 8 year old can. I am proud of the fact that our history and tradition is built largely on the fact that some people in our society are willing to do what others are not. Of course, this willingness to perform is balanced with common sense, training, and experience. Nobody ever claimed otherwise. But, the ultimate end result of the "everybody goes home" clowns is to just not respond at all...which I believe many of them would have absolutely no problem with. The entire fire service is turning into "me, me, me." I swear, if I hear one more recruit say "it's not our emergency", "the most important person on the fireground is me", or "everybody goes home", I'm going to throw up on their shoes.

  17. #257
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.
    Gosh, I might be more safety conscious than you.

    Every building on fire has "unknown structural hazards and stability".... regardless of occupancy.

    Yet, we still go in.... It's a firefighter thing, you wouldn't understand.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #258
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    I've been involved in agriculture my whole life. I've known a few farmers, and heard stories from many others, who were killed or seriously injured farming. It is an occupational hazard. Farmers do the best they can to avoid it, but in the end that is a risk they shoulder to provide for their families.

    So do truck drivers, house painters, electricians, coal miners, TV reporters, and even actors. They all accept the potential to be killed on the job in order to earn a living. In some of those jobs, that risk is high, in others not so much.

    But they don't take the job (and the paycheck) and then let the fields go un-plowed, the load un-hauled, the house un-painted, the building un-wired, the coal un-mined, the news un-reported, or the role un-played. They do their level best, in most cases, to avoid injuries and death, but it's not always possible.

    How is the fire service any different?
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  19. #259
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Secondly ... Chicago, Columbus, Irvington NJ, Cincinnatti, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Las vegas, Minniapolis, South bend, San Jose, Knoxville, Detroit, Seattle, Las Vegas, Milwakee.......
    Not very much we have in common with most if not all of the places on that list.
    Not too much.... unless you consider these motor vehicle fires.

    http://bossierpress.com/index.php?op...ews&Itemid=134

    BTW, Kudos for the guys there for saving the occupied structure. They went (gasp!) interior and saved it.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 04-03-2013 at 10:23 AM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Gosh, I might be more safety conscious than you.

    Every building on fire has "unknown structural hazards and stability".... regardless of occupancy.

    Yet, we still go in.... It's a firefighter thing, you wouldn't understand.

    That last line .. Hahahahahaaaaaaaaa... Such a funny guy.

    An abandoned building has been unmaintained by it's owner for an idefinate amount of time. Sorry, but that screams "unknown structural stability" even before the fire has had an affect on it's ability to defy gravity.

    Sorry, but unless I know there is somebody in there, it's ano-go, not unlike lightweight truss commercial buildings and older mobile homes. Any kind of involvement in those buildings, even in many cases, if there is life involved, is also a no-go.

    Simply not worth the potential cost.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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