View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #326
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    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    So what? We have had people fall through floors in homes that were occupied and being lived in daily. Other than to stir the pot what is your point?
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    I am starting to get confused. I am having trouble keeping up with the terminology vacant, abandoned and what not. In a house that has someone living in it, but everyone got out, what is that called. Is that now vacant, would interior operations then be called off? In an abandoned building that has someone in it, would that not then be called occupied? Without checking how can anyone be sure that no one is inside any building? Even one that the owner said no one is in? Firefighters die fighting fire in brand new houses when no victims are inside as well as old crappy houses when no victims are inside. The opposite is also true. Size up and fire behavior should dictate tactics not someone saying "look, boarded up windows, lets go home." If fire is blowing out of every window and door in a new house should we go in right away? Should we automatically stay out of a house with boarded up windows with very little fire load and little smoke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I am starting to get confused. I am having trouble keeping up with the terminology vacant, abandoned and what not. In a house that has someone living in it, but everyone got out, what is that called. Is that now vacant, would interior operations then be called off? In an abandoned building that has someone in it, would that not then be called occupied? Without checking how can anyone be sure that no one is inside any building? Even one that the owner said no one is in? Firefighters die fighting fire in brand new houses when no victims are inside as well as old crappy houses when no victims are inside. The opposite is also true. Size up and fire behavior should dictate tactics not someone saying "look, boarded up windows, lets go home." If fire is blowing out of every window and door in a new house should we go in right away? Should we automatically stay out of a house with boarded up windows with very little fire load and little smoke?
    terminology should be local anyhow. Best thing to do is , listen to your trusted line officer, if he say "lets go get it" -get after it , dont worry about what to call it.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    ...
    It's kind of funny how you keep interjecting your views into various threads. Several posters vigorously debate your views, call you out on a lot of the assertions that you make, you rarely have any evidence to back up your claims and often have no rebuttal when someone call BS. Pretty much NOBODY EVER supports your opinions and views. Eventually you throw in the towel with the "let's agree to disagree" line claiming that nobody is going to change their minds.

    Do you not see the pattern here?
    ...
    Pattern? Yup. La posts and the same gang comes into a thread to straighten out the world and keep the younguns from getting corrupted by the all powerful LaFire. Heck, he doesn't even have to post in threads anymore and he gets brought into them.

    Funny? No. It's gotten down right disgusting.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Pattern? Yup. La posts and the same gang comes into a thread to straighten out the world and keep the younguns from getting corrupted by the all powerful LaFire. Heck, he doesn't even have to post in threads anymore and he gets brought into them.

    Funny? No. It's gotten down right disgusting.
    If you are including me in this group with your broad stroke brush I will refute your statement 100%. Yes, I battle LA, but I do not mention him if he is not in the topic, and I have chastised people for mentioning him for no apparent reason other than to enflame the topic.

    You see that is the problem with the broad stroke brush, it most often covers those not involved in the least.
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  7. #332
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    Please stop taking up valuable space on these valuable electrons with all discussions that aren't sanctioned.

    An electron is a horrible thing to waste.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Hope you enjoy what College Station has to offer this weekend. Might I suggest Chuy's Mexican off of 6, they have great food and beer-aritas for drinks too. Sodolak Beefmasters on HWY 21 serves some huge steaks, cold beer and deep fried bacon. Enjoy. Then leave. Get out of my State.

    I find it hillarious that a man until a few posts ago was against FFI&II ( http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t124288/ (Sorta What I have Been Thinkin') )because they were not relivent to his department and has a signature line "Train to fight the fires you fight" is worried about an aircraft falling out of the sky in Bossier.

    You sir are a tool.
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    The class also covered operating in passenger trains for search and rescue. While we do not have any passenger trains, the skills were quite applicable to tour bus rescue operations, which we have many, many, many traveling on the 25 miles of I-20 everyday that my combo and VFD covers.

    So yes, the class was applicable.

    And yes, Sodolak's was wonderful.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-08-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    After scrolling backwards and reading your typical inane comments, it's nice to know you are still looking for ways to avoid doing the job of a firefighter. Given your numerous grammatical errors in several posts, it's a wonder you have a job in pub-ed. Unless you were the best that could be found at that price. Which is scary.

    I'm fortunate to be able to say (like most of the others on this forum) that we worked for real fire departments and not the fake ones like yourself. If you're afraid of getting hurt, there is no reason to respond in the first place given the dangers involved in responding code 3 on an emergency vehicle. Which only means you certainly want the glamor of being a firefighter but none of the responsibility. A trait I find very common in many VFD firefighters.

    To paraphrase my favorite line from the 2012 presidential election, "please proceed sir."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    So yes, the class was applicable.
    How was the class applicable? Did it include a block on watching aircrews get bar-be-cued? You've made it clear repeatedly you have no intention of doing anything that might cause you or one of your crew to get an "oowweee" and not go home that night or cause them to miss work the next day.

    I can assure you, if you believe vacant structures are potentially dangerous, they don't compare to aircraft. Especially some the size of those you mentioned. The C-5 is longer than the Wright Brothers first flight with a cargo area alone that is probably larger than most of the single family dwellings in your town that is "protected" by your pathetic FD and its group of masqueraders. And that is if the plane is empty. Few homes typically have thousands of gallons of jet fuel attached or any other type of cargo that is designed specifically to kill human beings. We won't even discuss the potential hazards for bombers or fighters.

    I congratulate you on knowing the difference in aircraft types, but we all know if there is an aircraft incident you'll be wetting yourself hoping that someone shows up soon allowing you to slink away.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-08-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which only means you certainly want the glamor of being a firefighter but none of the responsibility. A trait I find very common in many VFD firefighters.
    Wussiness does not acknowledge a paycheck.
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  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How was the class applicable? Did it include a block on watching aircrews get bar-be-cued? You've made it clear repeatedly you have no intention of doing anything that might cause you or one of your crew to get an "oowweee" and not go home that night or cause them to miss work the next day.

    I can assure you, if you believe vacant structures are potentially dangerous, they don't compare to aircraft. Especially some the size of those you mentioned. The C-5 is longer than the Wright Brothers first flight with a cargo area alone that is probably larger than most of the single family dwellings in your town that is "protected" by your pathetic FD and its group of masqueraders. And that is if the plane is empty. Few homes typically have thousands of gallons of jet fuel attached or any other type of cargo that is designed specifically to kill human beings. We won't even discuss the potential hazards for bombers or fighters.

    I congratulate you on knowing the difference in aircraft types, but we all know if there is an aircraft incident you'll be wetting yourself hoping that someone shows up soon allowing you to slink away.
    As I stated earlier I was a CFR Firefighter for the WiANG and we had KC-135R refulers, the base across the airport has C-130's. We saw B-52's on occasion as well as C-5's. I was told a C5 could carry 6 Greyhound busses in its cargo hold, with 72 soldiers in the deck above that and a flight crew of 15 for long missions. Heck the cockpit had bunkroom for the flight crew. My base was involved in winter weather flight testing of the C-17. We also occasionally saw military C-26s, helicopters, varous fighters, including the F-117, even C-141, B-1 and B-2 bombers.

    Military aircraft firefighting is not for the faint of heart. As a firefighter you are expected to get in there and save the pilots. Airplanes can be replaced but it takes months to train pilots and years for them to build credible experience. So there is no standing around, and there is no writing people off if there is ANY chance to save them.

    By the way, my home is in the flight path of 2 major airports, and an air force training facility, so besides civilian traffic any and all type of military aircraft have flown over my house, and continue to do so almost daily. Nevermind when the EAA show in Oshkosh occurs then I might see anything from a home made "Holy Crap I hope that doesn't fall apart" type of aircraft to a B-17 flying overhead.

    I agree that LA does not have the wherewithal to do any type of aircraft rescue firefighting, and to compare a bus to a train in rescue operations is just ludicrous. Try using normal extrication techniques on a train car!!
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    While the risk is higher for those of us reasonably close to airports and military bases, airy-o-planes fly over every single one of us. My department used to have an ARFF curriculum that stated there were aircraft flight patterns over every single county in the United States.

    And by the way, even if there weren't, planes ain't necessarily on their flight paths when they crash.
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    So yes, the class was applicable.
    My community is in the approach and departure pattern for three airports, KBOS, KBED and 9B1 (9B1 is in the city, 2 miles from the Casa DaGonz))

    9B1 has two active flight schools, one for fixed wing, the other for rotary wing and has had aircraft as large as the Pilatus PC-12, Sikorsky S-76 and Marine 1 land there

    If LA thinks that his course would prepare him for incidents involving military aircraft; he's in for a very rude awakening if one happens to go down " in da parish". Military aircraft do not have to follow the FAA 's FAR and AIM rules and regulations, and can be carrying live ordinance and tens of thousands of pounds of fuel on board, not to mention ejection seats and other "stuff".
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 04-09-2013 at 06:47 AM.
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  15. #340
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    Certainly not expecting to be able to work a military crash with one days training. I know it's hard to believe but we already have a response plan in place with Barksdale for them to come out and deal with the aircraft.

    Took the class just to get a very, very basic understanding of aircraft firefighting operations as well as additional basic knowledge on the aircraft themselves. We already have have had some basic Aircraft Operations for Structural Firefighters classroom programs, but I wanted just a little bit of hands-on, and the command staff at my VFD agreed that it would be useful.

    AS I have stated earlier, both of my departments have the possibility of dealing with Blackhawks coming into Camp Minden as well asr med helos, and both departments have responded in the past to crashes and emergency landings on highways involving general aviation aircraft. So yes, the class makes sense for both of my agencies.

    And Fryed, the instructors agreed that the basic search and rescue principles practiced in the train evolutions would also be applicable in large bus operations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Certainly not expecting to be able to work a military crash with one days training. I know it's hard to believe but we already have a response plan in place with Barksdale for them to come out and deal with the aircraft.
    A plan is not acting. You've made it clear you have no intention of doing anything that remotely resembles firefighting. The plan you claim that exists is nothing more than paper. Might as well be a comic book (appropriately since you are a comic claiming to be a firefighter) for all the good it will do if an actual incident occurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Took the class just to get a very, very basic understanding of aircraft firefighting operations as well as additional basic knowledge on the aircraft themselves. We already have have had some basic Aircraft Operations for Structural Firefighters classroom programs, but I wanted just a little bit of hands-on, and the command staff at my VFD agreed that it would be useful.
    Why would they approve a class for someone who never intends to act? Obviously Bossier Parish is filled with those who exemplify the adage of "one being born every minute."

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    AS I have stated earlier, both of my departments have the possibility of dealing with Blackhawks coming into Camp Minden as well asr med helos, and both departments have responded in the past to crashes and emergency landings on highways involving general aviation aircraft. So yes, the class makes sense for both of my agencies.
    Hopefully they have people who will look to act instead of you who has made it clear you have no intention of doing anything that even remotely involves firefighting.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-09-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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    I disappear for a few months and LA is still ranting on? If you were this relentless in fighting fire you might actually be a good firefighter.

    Anyway, if there is a chance there is a surviving victim(s) inside, I'm going to work. I'd rather get inside, make an attempt at an attack and search, and have to back out than sit outside and let it burn. We are firefighters, keep the chicken****s at the station.
    Last edited by RyanK63; 04-09-2013 at 01:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Certainly not expecting to be able to work a military crash with one days training. I know it's hard to believe but we already have a response plan in place with Barksdale for them to come out and deal with the aircraft.

    Why do you need training in military aircraft emergencies when you once again admit you will do nothing to intervene?


    Took the class just to get a very, very basic understanding of aircraft firefighting operations as well as additional basic knowledge on the aircraft themselves. We already have have had some basic Aircraft Operations for Structural Firefighters classroom programs, but I wanted just a little bit of hands-on, and the command staff at my VFD agreed that it would be useful.

    WHY? Why did you waste time and your volly FD's money, which supposedly they have very little in the first place, on training you freely admit you will never utilize? Seems beyond ridiculous to me.


    AS I have stated earlier, both of my departments have the possibility of dealing with Blackhawks coming into Camp Minden as well asr med helos, and both departments have responded in the past to crashes and emergency landings on highways involving general aviation aircraft. So yes, the class makes sense for both of my agencies.

    Maybe for civilian aircraft, but you said earlier military aircraft emergencies would involve the airbase coming out to handle it.


    And Fryed, the instructors agreed that the basic search and rescue principles practiced in the train evolutions would also be applicable in large bus operations.

    Sorry, not buying it. The construction of a train car, the hazards in a train car are FAR different from a bus. For example, try taking a window out of a train car in the same manner you would a bus and see how badly you fail.

    The only similarity, and it is a stretch is the seating of passengers.
    IF you would actually do something maybe this would be worthwhile. but it seems to me your history of excuse making would preclude you from even getting close to an aircraft incident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    IF you would actually do something maybe this would be worthwhile. but it seems to me your history of excuse making would preclude you from even getting close to an aircraft incident.
    I think snowball had it figured out -nothing but padding his resume- worthless paper
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    A plan is not acting. You've made it clear you have no intention of doing anything that remotely resembles firefighting. The plan you claim that exists is nothing more than paper. Might as well be comic book (appropriately since you are a comic claiming to be a firefighter) for all the good it will do if an actual incident occurs.

    Actually, the plan has been practiced. We would likely perform struxctural suppression and rescue if it came down in a neighborhood and the base crews would arrive with at least 2 ARFF vehicles and work the aircrtaft. If it was possible to rescue the aircrews within the limited ARFF training some of our career and volunteer members possess, we would.

    Again, where I have stated that I would likely not perform aggressive fire suppression operations except in some specific situations such as abandoned buildings, confirmed truss buildings, older mobile homes,with more than 2 rooms of involvement and some other situations where resources, training and exoperience did not match the fire?


    Why would they approve a class for someone who never intends to act? Obviously Bossier Parish is filled with those who exemplify the adage of "one being born every minute."

    Again, this training was through my VFD in another parish, not my combo department. Obviously my volunteer Chief feels that I would act in circumstances where actions where consistant with maintaining member safety, and found it worthwhile to send me to that class.


    Hopefully they have people who will look to act instead of you who has made it clear you have no intention of doing anything that even remotely involves firefighting.
    See above. Obviously my command staffs do not feel that way.
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  21. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually, the plan has been practiced. We would likely perform struxctural suppression and rescue if it came down in a neighborhood and the base crews would arrive with at least 2 ARFF vehicles and work the aircrtaft. If it was possible to rescue the aircrews within the limited ARFF training some of our career and volunteer members possess, we would.
    Practice isn't doing. We practiced combat maneuvers during my brief stint in the Army. The veterans that had actually been in combat stated it was nothing like the real deal. For one thing nobody died. Secondly, given the limited resources and training you refuse to do because they are not fires you commonly fight I will light candles hoping no airplanes have an impact incident in your jurisdiction. Assuming they survive the crash, they are pretty much toast if they hit in Bossier Parish.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, where I have stated that I would likely not perform aggressive fire suppression operations except in some specific situations such as abandoned buildings, confirmed truss buildings, older mobile homes,with more than 2 rooms of involvement and some other situations where resources, training and exoperience did not match the fire?
    Again, those aircrews are pretty much toast. You were just being obtuse in stating as such. Since you have no experience fighting an ARFF fire, those poor airman are goners.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, this training was through my VFD in another parish, not my combo department. Obviously my volunteer Chief feels that I would act in circumstances where actions where consistant with maintaining member safety, and found it worthwhile to send me to that class.
    See above. Obviously my command staffs do not feel that way.
    They obviously don't know you like we do.
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    Why do you need training in military aircraft emergencies when you once again admit you will do nothing to intervene?

    And exactly where did I state that?

    True, there are many situations involving aircraft, especially on my VFD, who sent me to the class, where aggressive intervention would not be consistant with member life safety. However, part of the reson they sent me to the class was to better understand aircraft emergencies, and define our limitations and identify mutual aid resource needs at those types of incidents, and be able to deliver training on our response protocols.



    WHY? Why did you waste time and your volly FD's money, which supposedly they have very little in the first place, on training you freely admit you will never utilize? Seems beyond ridiculous to me.

    Because they felt that the class was worthwhile for the above reasons. Would we intervene in a situation where a small GA aircraft went down? Do we have the resources? Maybe, but they wanted somebody with a little more operational understanding of aircraft emergencies than what LSU offered for structural personnel.

    We could very easily have a general avaiation aircraft go down in the district as we border a community with a general avaition facility.



    Maybe for civilian aircraft, but you said earlier military aircraft emergencies would involve the airbase coming out to handle it.

    However, we could very easily have a B-52, cargo aircraft or large frame command/control aircraft go down in residental area. Unless there is an immediatte need for rescue we would handle the structural suppression, rescue and EMS issues and the base would handle to aircraft/fuel fire issues, and likely rescue.



    Sorry, not buying it. The construction of a train car, the hazards in a train car are FAR different from a bus. For example, try taking a window out of a train car in the same manner you would a bus and see how badly you fail.

    The only similarity, and it is a stretch is the seating of passengers.

    Never said that it was identical, but the basic priniples and basic techniques of movement around the space apply.

    Again, my VFD found value in that portion of the class as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Practice isn't doing. We practiced combat maneuvers during my brief stint in the Army. The veterans that had actually been in combat stated it was nothing like the real deal. For one thing nobody died. Secondly, given the limited resources and training you refuse to do because they are not fires you commonly fight I will light candles hoping no airplanes have an impact incident in your jurisdiction. Assuming they survive the crash, they are pretty much toast if they hit in Bossier Parish.





    Nope.

    So what do suggest we do? Crash a plane in a residental neighboorhood and then set a couple of homes on fire? True, we have not actually worked the scenario but it has been tabletopped.

    I will repeat ... My philopsphy on fire operations are not those of my department as a whole. I am not aggressive and beleive that aggressive operations is warrented only in situations with a HIGH probability of changing the outcome. That is not the philospohy of most of our officers and they are far more aggressive than I consider reasonable. In fact, we have several members with ARFF training through thier career gigs and a couple with Air Force experience and certifications.

    That being said we have no ARFF or high flow foam capability, so likely, as stated above, our operations would likely be confined to structural suppression, unless those with aircraft training and experience indicated that we could operate in the vicinity of the aircraft.


    The resources on my VFD are far less, as well as the levels of training and experience, and yes, that is a completly different scenario.





    Again, those aircrews are pretty much toast. You were just being obtuse in stating as such. Since you have no experience fighting an ARFF fire, those poor airman are goners.





    Likely, if there was significant fire, yes they would be as we do lack high flow foam abilities and we are not ARFF trained across the board as it is a low priority for both of my departments. No disagreement there.





    They obviously don't know you like we do.



    True. They know me better through my actions on the job. Imagine that.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why do you need training in military aircraft emergencies when you once again admit you will do nothing to intervene?

    And exactly where did I state that?

    True, there are many situations involving aircraft, especially on my VFD, who sent me to the class, where aggressive intervention would not be consistant with member life safety. However, part of the reson they sent me to the class was to better understand aircraft emergencies, and define our limitations and identify mutual aid resource needs at those types of incidents, and be able to deliver training on our response protocols.


    You said the airbase would handle military aircraft.

    Let me tell you what LA, from everything you have said about your personnel, response time, and equipment, there will be nothing you are going to do to positively affect the outcome of an aircraft incident involving fire. It is that brutally simple.


    WHY? Why did you waste time and your volly FD's money, which supposedly they have very little in the first place, on training you freely admit you will never utilize? Seems beyond ridiculous to me.

    Because they felt that the class was worthwhile for the above reasons. Would we intervene in a situation where a small GA aircraft went down? Do we have the resources? Maybe, but they wanted somebody with a little more operational understanding of aircraft emergencies than what LSU offered for structural personnel.

    We could very easily have a general avaiation aircraft go down in the district as we border a community with a general avaition facility.


    And again, without repeating what I said above, you will not do anything to positively affect the outcome of an incident involving an aircraft on fire, other than to stand around and spray water on the smoldering remains of the affected structures.


    Maybe for civilian aircraft, but you said earlier military aircraft emergencies would involve the airbase coming out to handle it.

    However, we could very easily have a B-52, cargo aircraft or large frame command/control aircraft go down in residental area. Unless there is an immediatte need for rescue we would handle the structural suppression, rescue and EMS issues and the base would handle to aircraft/fuel fire issues, and likely rescue.


    So are you trying to justify learning about aircraft fires by saying you will have to put out burning buildings hit by an airplane, but not the airplanes themselves because the airbase crash crews will do that? Again, why did you need specialized training for that?

    Sorry, not buying it. The construction of a train car, the hazards in a train car are FAR different from a bus. For example, try taking a window out of a train car in the same manner you would a bus and see how badly you fail.

    The only similarity, and it is a stretch is the seating of passengers.

    Never said that it was identical, but the basic priniples and basic techniques of movement around the space apply.

    Again, my VFD found value in that portion of the class as well.


    I am sure they did. Although I keep hearing a little voice in my head that says you said "Why teach people about things they won't ever see or use. And still you went to a class on train cars to learn about bus rescue. I am sure YOU see the logic in that.
    Seriously, it has gotten to the point where your excuses, your ramblings, and your justifications, are nothing more than ludicrous and funny.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  25. #350
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    You said the airbase would handle military aircraft.

    I said, referring to my combo department, crews from the airbase would respond as part of a pre-arranged plan and would likely handle the aircraft unless there is some immediate need for us to do so prior to their arrival, such as attempting to control the aircraft fire itself, or attempt if it goes down in the neighborhood, or perform a rescue if we have enough of our members with fire department or military training on-scene to lead the operation.

    If there were none of those issues, yes, in all likelihood, we would leave the aircraft itself to the crews from the base and we would handle the civilian side of the incident.

    The simple fact is I was not sent by my combo department, which is the one with the far greater military aircraft exposure. I was sent by my VFD, whose exposure is more towards the general aviation side associated with the nearby general aviation airport. Depending on the size of the aircraft and the complexity of the incident it may manageable. That is why my department decided to send me to this class.

    The military would not respond to assist my volunteer department, who sent me to this class, in all likelihood, unless it was a downed military aircraft. If it was civilian, we (my VFD's area) would likely have to handle the incident without the crews from the air base. Either way, it would be at a minimum, a 35-40 minute response from Barksdale.

    Any more questions as to why I was sent, I suggest you contact my Chief as he was the one that made the call.




    And again, without repeating what I said above, you will not do anything to positively affect the outcome of an incident involving an aircraft on fire, other than to stand around and spray water on the smoldering remains of the affected structures.

    Fully agree that it may be that situation, as neither department has any large flow foam capabilities, and my VFD has no ARFF training, except for one Air Force ARFF certified reservist.

    Could we intervene if the fire was limited? Perhaps.

    Bottom line is you have little knowledge of what personal actions i would take or what department-level actions I would order or recommend in these situations.

    Again, if you have specific questions as to why he authorized me to send me to this class, I suggest you contact my volunteer Chief.



    Maybe for civilian aircraft, but you said earlier military aircraft emergencies would involve the airbase coming out to handle it.

    As I have stated, the airbase would probably send limited resources to a civilian aircraft incident in my combo's area, but would send a full response for a military incident. As I stated earlier, we would likely not get assistance from the airbase in my volunteer department's area, which is in part, why they sent me.

    The Chief understands that we have limited resources and capabilities, but wanted to send an officer to get additional training, so if an aircraft incident occurs, he has an officer with training beyond the LSU Aircraft Awareness to class to make an assessment and possibly lead or command an operational response.



    So are you trying to justify learning about aircraft fires by saying you will have to put out burning buildings hit by an airplane, but not the airplanes themselves because the airbase crash crews will do that? Again, why did you need specialized training for that?

    Again, my volunteer Chief felt that he wanted me at the class.

    .

    I am sure they did. Although I keep hearing a little voice in my head that says you said "Why teach people about things they won't ever see or use. And still you went to a class on train cars to learn about bus rescue. I am sure YOU see the logic in that.

    Which was authorized by the Chief of the department that paid for the class. He saw value in the class.

    We are far more likely to be involved in a response to a downed aircraft or a bus crash, from which some basic principles from this class can be applied, than we are in many other incidents discussed in FFI/FFII.


    Seriously, it has gotten to the point where your excuses, your ramblings, and your justifications, are nothing more than ludicrous and funny.

    Any questions as to why I was at this class should probably be directed to my volunteer Chief, who authorized the department to send me.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-09-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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