View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Likely, if there was significant fire, yes they would be as we do lack high flow foam abilities and we are not ARFF trained across the board as it is a low priority for both of my departments. No disagreement there.
    Thanks. There was no purpose in sending you to this class at taxpayer expense.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    True. They know me better through my actions on the job. Imagine that.
    That helps reinforce my opinion of your entire department. That they consider you the best of the bunch says a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post


    I said, referring to my combo department, crews from the airbase would respond as part of a pre-arranged plan and would likely handle the aircraft unless there is some immediate need for us to do so prior to their arrival, such as attempting to control the aircraft fire itself, or attempt if it goes down in the neighborhood, or perform a rescue if we have enough of our members with fire department or military training on-scene to lead the operation.

    If there were none of those issues, yes, in all likelihood, we would leave the aircraft itself to the crews from the base and we would handle the civilian side of the incident.

    The simple fact is I was not sent by my combo department, which is the one with the far greater military aircraft exposure. I was sent by my VFD, whose exposure is more towards the general aviation side associated with the nearby general aviation airport. Depending on the size of the aircraft and the complexity of the incident it may manageable. That is why my department decided to send me to this class.

    The military would not respond to assist my volunteer department, who sent me to this class, in all likelihood, unless it was a downed military aircraft. If it was civilian, we (my VFD's area) would likely have to handle the incident without the crews from the air base. Either way, it would be at a minimum, a 35-40 minute response from Barksdale.

    I guarantee you if a military aircraft fell out of the sky in your volly FD's area the military base would respond. They own the aricraft and they will be there.

    Any more questions as to why I was sent, I suggest you contact my Chief as he was the one that made the call.

    LA contacting your chief and messing with your livlihood, no matter how much I disagree with your rantings, simply isn't my style. So you can stop the call my chief BS right now.



    Fully agree that it may be that situation, as neither department has any large flow foam capabilities, and my VFD has no ARFF training, except for one Air Force ARFF certified reservist.

    Then why waste time and money at a class when you know you have no ability to actually have a positive impact on a crash?

    Could we intervene if the fire was limited? Perhaps.

    If one of those larger military aircraft crash shortly after take-off it will be anything but a limited fire.

    Bottom line is you have little knowledge of what personal actions i would take or what department-level actions I would order or recommend in these situations.

    Untrue...you have made it brutally clear what your actions will be in any fire situation.

    Again, if you have specific questions as to why he authorized me to send me to this class, I suggest you contact my volunteer Chief.


    Not my style, nicely played whine though...


    As I have stated, the airbase would probably send limited resources to a civilian aircraft incident in my combo's area, but would send a full response for a military incident. As I stated earlier, we would likely not get assistance from the airbase in my volunteer department's area, which is in part, why they sent me.

    Wrong, the closest air force fire department will respond. I thought you had this all planned out regarding military aircraft?

    The Chief understands that we have limited resources and capabilities, but wanted to send an officer to get additional training, so if an aircraft incident occurs, he has an officer with training beyond the LSU Aircraft Awareness to class to make an assessment and possibly lead or command an operational response.


    Why? So you could stand there and tell him what you can't do?


    Again, my volunteer Chief felt that he wanted me at the class.

    Of course.

    Which was authorized by the Chief of the department that paid for the class. He saw value in the class.

    We are far more likely to be involved in a response to a downed aircraft or a bus crash, from which some basic principles from this class can be applied, than we are in many other incidents discussed in FFI/FFII.


    Really? How many major aircraft incidents have you been too? Esoecilly involving large frame military aircraft...

    Any questions as to why I was at this class should probably be directed to my volunteer Chief, who authorized the department to send me.
    This ask your chief thing is even funnier than your usual drivel...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This ask your chief thing is even funnier than your usual drivel...
    Which is saying a lot since his usual drivel is usually pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is saying a lot since his usual drivel is usually pretty good.
    Too true...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This ask your chief thing is even funnier than your usual drivel...
    I'll make this very clear.

    1. My combo department has a high exposure for crashes involving fixed wing military aircraft as we are on the departure and approach routes for the air base. My department also has a high exposure to military rotary aircraft at the National Guard facility we cover. They have no ARFF response as we are the fire department for the facility. We have a much more limited exposure to incidents involving civilian aircraft.

    Ya with me so far?

    2. My combo department has a plan with Barksdale, which has been rehearsed, which involves the firefighting crews and ARFF vehicles responding from the base for any downed military aircraft with a full response and in the event of a civilian aircraft, a partial response.

    3. My combo department has several members that either have significant ARFF training from thier career gig or Air Force ARFF training who would be in a position to lead operations on the aircraft if the situation dictated immediate operations on the aircraft itself. If there is no immediate need for operations on the aircraft itself, our priority would be firefighting and rescue operations on any structures or civilians that may be involved or threatened, and the military and their ARFF vehicles would handle the aircraft sector of the incident.

    4. My combo department did not send me to this class.

    Have I confused you yet?

    5. My volunteer department has a much more limited exposure to crashes involving military aircraft with the exception of the rotary aircraft who often fly over my VFD's district at low levels on approach to the National Guard facility. In fact, the facility is actually surrounded by my VFD's response area and the helipad is actually less than 100' from the facility's perimeter, meaning that if it went down while landing, there is a good chance it would be my VFD, not my combo department, that would be responding..

    That being said, as I have stated multiple times, my VFD has a much higher exposure to smaller general aviation aircraft crashes than my combo department, as we are close to a GA airport in the neighboring fire district. The airport has no ARFF response.

    In addition, we routinely cover air med helo takeoffs and landings.

    6. It was my volunteer department that sent me to this class. When I requested this class, the Chief's intent was to gain some general knowledge on crash operations at the officer level for structural members and apparatus, primarily for operations involving general aviation aircraft. He approved me taking the class.

    I fully understand, and have stated, that the military would be coming if one of their aircraft went down in my VFD's district. The problem there is simply that the response time would likely be at least 35-40 minutes, which would likely require that at a minimum, we understand some basics about military aircraft fires and crashes so that we can operate safely on the edge of the incident and protect exposures. We fully understand that we would likely never have the resources, training or experience levels required to directly intervene on the (military) aircraft itself.

    7. As a department, depending on response, including AMA with a 5-man crew and a engine capable of producing Class A foam from multiple discharges (similar to the engine we likely will be purchasing later this year) we may have the capability to intervene in some general aviation crash situations. Again, I was sent to gather information on exactly how we could intervene with our resources and gather some information on basic response and operational procedures through hands-on training.

    8. I'll repeat .. It was my VFD, not my combo department that paid for me to attend this class. The Chief felt that it was important knowledge for the department. Certainly it could be used at my combo gig if an aircraft, military or civilian, went down, but as a rule, my combo gig does send members to ARFF training beyond basic awareness-level classes.

    Are we ever going to see an air crash in my VFD district? Maybe. Maybe not. But there is that possibility and the person who makes the ultimate decision on who we send to what type of training decided that it was worth the money. It's really that simple.

    Your comments on the fires I will and will not fight keep getting funnier and funnier as you know very little about me.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-10-2013 at 03:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Are we ever going to see an air crash in my VFD district? Maybe. Maybe not. But there is that possibility and the person who makes the ultimate decision on who we send to what type of training decided that it was worth the money. It's really that simple.
    Hmm, willing to bet the odds of having a victim inside an "abandoned" structure would be greater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll make this very clear.

    1. My combo department has a high exposure for crashes involving fixed wing military aircraft as we are on the departure and approach routes for the air base. My department also has a high exposure to military rotary aircraft at the National Guard facility we cover. They have no ARFF response as we are the fire department for the facility. We have a much more limited exposure to incidents involving civilian aircraft.

    EVER had a crash involving a military aircraft in your Combo FD's area?

    Further if your combo FD didn't send you to this class this point of your defense of the class is moot.


    Ya with me so far?

    2. My combo department has a plan with Barksdale, which has been rehearsed, which involves the firefighting crews and ARFF vehicles responding from the base for any downed military aircraft with a full response and in the event of a civilian aircraft, a partial response.

    Irrelevant since you have made it clear your combo FD didn't send you to this class.

    3. My combo department has several members that either have significant ARFF training from thier career gig or Air Force ARFF training who would be in a position to lead operations on the aircraft if the situation dictated immediate operations on the aircraft itself. If there is no immediate need for operations on the aircraft itself, our priority would be firefighting and rescue operations on any structures or civilians that may be involved or threatened, and the military and their ARFF vehicles would handle the aircraft sector of the incident.

    Irrelevant since you have made it clear your combo FD didn't send you to this class.

    4. My combo department did not send me to this class.

    We know and it blows everything you said above this out of the water since it is all irrelevant.

    Have I confused you yet?

    No, but you seem confused since all you have talked abou is the combo FD that DIDN'T send you to this class.

    5. My volunteer department has a much more limited exposure to crashes involving military aircraft with the exception of the rotary aircraft who often fly over my VFD's district at low levels on approach to the National Guard facility. In fact, the facility is actually surrounded by my VFD's response area and the helipad is actually less than 100' from the facility's perimeter, meaning that if it went down while landing, there is a good chance it would be my VFD, not my combo department, that would be responding..

    EVER had a crash involving a helicopter in your volly FD's area?

    That being said, as I have stated multiple times, my VFD has a much higher exposure to smaller general aviation aircraft crashes than my combo department, as we are close to a GA airport in the neighboring fire district. The airport has no ARFF response.

    EVER had any type of aircraft crash in your volly FD's area?

    In addition, we routinely cover air med helo takeoffs and landings.

    Whoop de freaking do!! We did several of those last year ourselves.

    6. It was my volunteer department that sent me to this class. When I requested this class, the Chief's intent was to gain some general knowledge on crash operations at the officer level for structural members and apparatus, primarily for operations involving general aviation aircraft. He approved me taking the class.

    To what end? You admit freely you have no large foam application capability, no ARFF trained members and no willingness to change either one.

    I fully understand, and have stated, that the military would be coming if one of their aircraft went down in my VFD's district. The problem there is simply that the response time would likely be at least 35-40 minutes, which would likely require that at a minimum, we understand some basics about military aircraft fires and crashes so that we can operate safely on the edge of the incident and protect exposures. We fully understand that we would likely never have the resources, training or experience levels required to directly intervene on the (military) aircraft itself.

    I think tht may be the first truthful statement out of you on this entire topic.

    7. As a department, depending on response, including AMA with a 5-man crew and a engine capable of producing Class A foam from multiple discharges (similar to the engine we likely will be purchasing later this year) we may have the capability to intervene in some general aviation crash situations. Again, I was sent to gather information on exactly how we could intervene with our resources and gather some information on basic response and operational procedures through hands-on training.

    You do know that Class A foam is NOT designed for flammable liquids don't you? That's why it is called CLASS A foam.

    So what did you learn besides more justification for inaction?


    8. I'll repeat .. It was my VFD, not my combo department that paid for me to attend this class. The Chief felt that it was important knowledge for the department. Certainly it could be used at my combo gig if an aircraft, military or civilian, went down, but as a rule, my combo gig does send members to ARFF training beyond basic awareness-level classes.

    We know it was your volly FD, you are the one that keeps mentioning your combo FD.

    Are we ever going to see an air crash in my VFD district? Maybe. Maybe not. But there is that possibility and the person who makes the ultimate decision on who we send to what type of training decided that it was worth the money. It's really that simple.

    You see LA here is where your jusitification for this class becomes pathetically funny. You can justify going to a class to learn about aircraft crashes when you have never had one, but can't justify doing any kind of search on an abandoned building for victims because you have never seen one. I am sure you will come up with some more nonsense to justify your position, but out here we cal that hypocrisy.

    Your comments on the fires I will and will not fight keep getting funnier and funnier as you know very little about me.
    Oh we know you very well. You have stated more reasons for not entering a building on fire than ones to enter. Up to an including right off possibly viable victims, including your own family. You have talked about structural instabiity and the extent of the fire, and THEN even went so far as to say the type of structure would prevent you from entering, not the size of the fire itself but the construction method of the structure would prevent you from entering. That's the problem with broad stroke tactics, there is no wiggle room, there is no chance for adapting tactics. The rest of us here have stated emphatically that we would do a size-up, a risk vs benefit analysis and if the building conditions and fire size allowed we would enter and search for victims. You implied that was reckless and stupid, and you were called a coward. The truth is somewhere in the middle but your rigidity doesn't allow for gray areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Oh we know you very well. You have stated more reasons for not entering a building on fire than ones to enter. Up to an including right off possibly viable victims, including your own family. You have talked about structural instabiity and the extent of the fire, and THEN even went so far as to say the type of structure would prevent you from entering, not the size of the fire itself but the construction method of the structure would prevent you from entering. That's the problem with broad stroke tactics, there is no wiggle room, there is no chance for adapting tactics. The rest of us here have stated emphatically that we would do a size-up, a risk vs benefit analysis and if the building conditions and fire size allowed we would enter and search for victims. You implied that was reckless and stupid, and you were called a coward. The truth is somewhere in the middle but your rigidity doesn't allow for gray areas.
    Aside from the masterful way you dissect his statements and contradictions via parsing, this summation really does hold his head under water.

    He's stated he won't enter a structure to search for potential victims yet we're supposed to believe he was sent to this class for what, I don't know. Given his adamant mindset of not firefighting his VFD could have spent the money on something more worthwhile. Perhaps a special deal with a local bakery to have French pastry delivered during their meetings, or a new lightbar for the Gremlin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Aside from the masterful way you dissect his statements and contradictions via parsing, this summation really does hold his head under water.

    He's stated he won't enter a structure to search for potential victims yet we're supposed to believe he was sent to this class for what, I don't know. Given his adamant mindset of not firefighting his VFD could have spent the money on something more worthwhile. Perhaps a special deal with a local bakery to have French pastry delivered during their meetings, or a new lightbar for the Gremlin.
    Thanks for the kind words.

    I have to admit I laughed right out loud at this comment:

    Perhaps a special deal with a local bakery to have French pastry delivered during their meetings, or a new lightbar for the Gremlin.
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    Well, if we have decided to enter and do a search and the search comes up negative, what should we do then? I read about firefighters dying in and on abandoned buildings, but I never hear if they were still conducting a search or not. If we did the search and are sure no one is inside should we continue interior attack or move to the outside and protect exposures, letting the involved abandoned building burn down?
    I only ask because we have established if conditions warrant, most of us are going to do a search. OH, I am also glad I got my avatar working, even though my bunker gear pictured is subcontracted through the Chicago Tent and Awning Company.
    Last edited by conrad427; 04-10-2013 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Well, if we have decided to enter and do a search and the search comes up negative, what should we do then? I read about firefighters dying in and on abandoned buildings, but I never hear if they were still conducting a search or not. If we did the search and are sure no one is inside should we continue interior attack or move to the outside and protect exposures, letting the involved abandoned building burn down?
    I only ask because we have established if conditions warrant, most of us are going to do a search. OH, I am also glad I got my avatar working, even though my bunker gear pictured is subcontracted through the Chicago Tent and Awning Company.
    Well, we would probably already be engaging in an interior attack and would probably see it through.

    However, as always, it depends on fire conditions and building conditions as found.
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    I was about to say that I would love to see azzhole try and pin an ejection seat but just realized that once he found out there were explosives involved that would be his "out" excuse for covering his yellow spine.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I was about to say that I would love to see azzhole try and pin an ejection seat but just realized that once he found out there were explosives involved that would be his "out" excuse for covering his yellow spine.........
    He would use the ejection seat as an excuse for not attempting a rescue saying the pilot failed to save themselves.
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    on the edge of the incident - Just six little words that say much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    on the edge of the incident - Just six little words that say much more.
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-11-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    You need to take "knowledge" over again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    Which is your way of telling the rest of us that the citizens of Bossier Parish VFD just had their tax dollars wasted.

    You don't possess specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment. So there was no point in your attendance.

    To quote one of my favorite lines from Henry IV:

    "Thou art a natural coward without instinct."
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-11-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    From what I have heard you say over and over, that is pretty much where you prefer to operate from on any scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is your way of telling the rest of us that the citizens of Bossier Parish VFD just had their tax dollars wasted.

    Do you actually have reading comprehension skills? .... For About the 12th time .. my VFD is not in Bossier Parish.

    And no, they didn't. the goal was to have one member of the command staff obtain SOME additional knowledge about aircraft response operations. The goal was met.


    You don't possess specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment. So there was no point in your attendance.

    To quote one of my favorite lines from Henry IV:

    "Thou art a natural coward without instinct."
    ..... Prove it
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    From what I have heard you say over and over, that is pretty much where you prefer to operate from on any scene.
    Then you have been misreading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Prove it
    You yourself have proven it, with your own words, so many times it seems pointless for you to deny it any further.
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    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Prove it
    You're previous commentary is all the proof required.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campman View Post
    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit?
    I have no idea.

    They fully understand how I feel about aggressive, unwarranted operations that the fire service so often performs.
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    Originally Posted by Campman
    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit
    ?

    LA....
    I have no idea.

    They fully understand how I feel about aggressive, unwarranted operations that the fire service so often performs.
    Since at least one of your Chiefs still allows the firefighters to do aggressive interior attacks, he thinks your point of view is skewed and irrelevant, just like 99.99% of those here do.
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