View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #401
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    At least in our state the Paid guys are totally in favor of work comp for us volunteers. The state work comp office is in favor as well as the State fire agency, and the council of county commission. The Governor told the committee no way in hell would he support it so it died. We are not covered yet, but we got off our butts and got the grass roots involved, and are making progress. We cant make it a state law yet but we got the locals to support it and put pressure on the county. It did not take much pressure! Like I said, we never asked because we assumed it would not be supported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.
    At least you can finally admit it. There is your first step. Next, grow some balls.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    LA, at least at this point why not cover it in house? Seriously how many guys are you putting out on duty injury anyways?,
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The WC system that we have certainly has it drawbacks, but it is better than yours. It was acquired after years political action by our state firefighter association.

    But you don't see the need for unions, yet I'm sure you also see no connection between a disastrous WC policy and your attempts to believe your VFD is effective at anything more than yard breathing or washing off foundations.
    Exactly what is the connection in your post between unions and WC?

    Most of the career members of the fire service in LA are covered by civil service which garantees up to 364 days of fully paid sick leave for any on-duty and most off-duty injuries. The only exceptions afre departments that are muncipally run (not fire districts) with a population of less than 3500 or greater than 400,00. Those are covered by workman's comp for on-duty injuries only, and get both medical and wage protection, but may not receive full pay dependant on the circumstances.

    Volunteers are unionized and never will be, and likely will never have the political pull to have the WC rules changed for volunteers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    LA, at least at this point why not cover it in house? Seriously how many guys are you putting out on duty injury anyways?,
    Covering it in house is an option and it has been discussed at my combo department. Generally speaking volunteers lose only 2-3 days per year due to injuries, and in most years it's less.

    The fear is that we set a precindence, and then we have an injury in which a volunteer has to miss work long term.

    There has been discussion at my VFD, but in the past, we have not have a member lose a day at work in the almost three years I have been there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    We're supposedly talking about firefighters and regardless of what you think, there is an inherent amount of risk involved in actually performing the duties of a Firefighter. The public knows this and expects that we will not actively seek to avoid all risk in order to protect them and their property.

    And never did i say that we can, or should avoid ALL risk. Every response has a level of risk. That being said, we can minimize risk by responding hot only to calls that require a hot response. We can minimize risk by training effectively. And we can minimize risk by acting aggressively only when there are both adequate resources to support aggressive operations and when there are viable victims to rescue and savable property. We do control the amount of risk by effective size-ups and being realistic about the capabilities of both the department overall and the resources we have on that scene vs. the conditions that have been presented, and understanding that we, in many cases, cannot change the outcome.
    Like usual, you missed the point, provided a response not consistent with the content you quoted and avoided answering the questions asked.

    I can understand the desire to avoid potential financial struggles stemming from a line of duty injury for your personnel however, what is the public to think of their supposed fire department when there is more concern for the possibility of lost wages due to an injury that hasn't happened (and the shortcomings of WC in LA) than there is concern for citizens in actual need of the services expected from their fire department?


    Again ... Act and assume risk when taking risk is warranted.
    How about answering the question that was actually asked?

    What's the public to think when their fire department is more concerned about potentially lost wages due to an injury that hasn't actually happened to the point that it inhibits the fire department's willingness to do the job expected of them when the public is actually having an emergent need?


    Additionally, what is the public to think if said department fails to inform the public that this lack of WC coverage will negatively effect the fire department's ability to properly serve them in their time of need while also failing to ask the public to help them with lobbying the legislative body that has the ability to remove this obstacle?

    And to the best of my knowledge this type of campaign has not been undertaken by the State Fireman's Association. I don't know the exact history of this as it has been a long standing issue as I am not involved at the state level with the association. That being said, taking it to the streets may not be a bad idea. However, the downside is that, based on past history, if we do get it changed I foresee some VERY significant rate changes by WC which would likely have some very, very significant effects on the hundreds of very small rural VFDs in the state.
    How about answering the question that was asked?

    What is the public to think when they find out their fire department didn't bother to inform them that it may not provide the expected services because Jim Bob might get a boo boo and miss work?

    What are they to think when they realize that their fire department didn't bother to ask for their help with removing this obstacle?

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Volunteers are unionized and never will be, and likely will never have the political pull to have the WC rules changed for volunteers.
    I am assuming that you mean to say volunteers are not unionized, and you are at least partially wrong. The teamsters have pushed in many places, and succeeded, in Unionizing some paid on call firefighters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly what is the connection in your post between unions and WC?
    Although not directly applicable to this situation since the labor force involved is non-union, the connection between labor unions and your state's problematic WC laws is this:

    Basically, a labor group (volunteer FFs) is being excluded by law from a benefit (WC coverage for lost wages) that other workers are entitled to and should be extended to them. To make this explanation easier to follow, let's assume that the career firefighters are also being excluded.

    Now, the labor group includes unionized firefighters. Since this denial of coverage is a state-wide issue, the various Firefighter Union Locals across the state start working together in a sort of "grass roots" type effort to bring this issue to the attention of their state legislators and lobby for making a change to the WC laws to cover lost wages for the firefighters. Eventually, support for the issue is found from a few legislators who then introduce the needed legislation to effect the desired change. Maybe along the way, the public's attention is drawn to the matter and more support for the change is found and some of the public starts contacting their legislators asking them to support this change. The legislation goes through the required process and eventually gets signed into law by the Governor and now the firefighters have WC coverage for lost wages.

    That's the connection, an organized group of people working together to accomplish something beneficial to the group. That's just one part of why unions are beneficial for workers.


    Volunteers are unionized and never will be, and likely will never have the political pull to have the WC rules changed for volunteers.
    I assume you meant "non-unionized". It may be a long shot, but you'll never get it if you don't fight for it.

    Cancer Presumption Laws for firefighters in my state that were finally signed into law about 2 years ago. The various IAFF Locals in the state along with our State Association in the lead, lobbied our legislators in order to get this needed legislation so that cancer (which FFs contract at far greater rate than the general public) would be recognized as an occupational illness and firefighters would be able to get the benefits they deserve for a job-related illness that can't always be definitively linked to a single specific exposure. The fight took about 25 years to accomplish this and others joined the fight along the way. Part of the reason it took as long as it did was because we refused to have our state's volunteer firefighters excluded from this protection even though we were told at several points that they'd pass the legislation if that group was excluded.

    That's the power of organized labor.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly what is the connection in your post between unions and WC?
    The fact that you ask this question tells me it's not worth the time to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Volunteers are unionized and never will be, and likely will never have the political pull to have the WC rules changed for volunteers.
    So does this mean they all have the same mindset as you when it comes to fire? Meaning they look for excuses to avoid doing their job while prancing around at parades in their firefighter costumes?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #410
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    Let's be honest, LA is not going to start any sort of grass roots effort, especially if it will eliminate any sort of convenient excuse to prevent actual fire fighting.
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    I effing LOVE to fight fire!! Just sayin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Let's be honest, LA is not going to start any sort of grass roots effort, especially if it will eliminate any sort of convenient excuse to prevent actual fire fighting.
    It's been tried in the past and failed by folks with much more clout and political connections than me.

    At my rank, persueing this simply isn't my place.
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  13. #413
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    Excerpted from an article in the Boston Globe:

    I asked one of the firefighters, the former Marine with eight years on the job, why he and his brother firefighters did what they did, without any concern for their own safety. Why they ran toward the bombs. Why they were prepared to die if need be.

    “That’s our job,” he said, shrugging.
    I think the sentiments expressed in this article represent the majority in the fire service. There are always exceptions and excuse makers. Hopefully, those types will always remain a small, barely felt minority of us.

    Full article, here:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...bJI/story.html
    FyredUp, FireMedic049 and Chenzo like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It's been tried in the past and failed by folks with much more clout and political connections than me.

    At my rank, persueing this simply isn't my place.
    Especially since it would give you fewer excuses to have to actually do your job as firefighter instead of just claiming that you are one since you have the title.

    The highlighted words continue to convince me that you either don't work in Pub Ed, or that if you were the best available, that is one illiterate hiring pool that is available.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-18-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Excerpted from an article in the Boston Globe:



    I think the sentiments expressed in this article represent the majority in the fire service. There are always exceptions and excuse makers. Hopefully, those types will always remain a small, barely felt minority of us.

    Full article, here:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...bJI/story.html
    With all the current criticism we are reading about professional public employees we continue to see them doing their jobs in the face of extreme conditions.

    I witnessed an idiot conservative (sorry to make this political and I don't believe the comment is universally shared amongst conservatives) that professional firefighters only cared about their pensions. The men and women of the BPD and BFD showed the fallacy of that mindset. They continue to live up to the adage that we run in when everyone else is running out (except for LAFE who doesn't run near in the first place).
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Especially since it would give you fewer excuses to have to actually do your job as firefighter instead of just claiming that you are one since you have the title.

    I would love for every volunteer member to know that while operating his wages would be covered if he was injured, and hat their famalies would be protected.

    Would that change how I employed them and what risks I exposed them to? Likely no, as they still, even with enhanced wage coverage, are THE priority on the fireground and they need to be treated as such.


    The highlighted words continue to convince me that you either don't work in Pub Ed, or that if you were the best available, that is one illiterate hiring pool that is available.

    Insults are generally the work of those unable to discuss. You continue to not disappoint me.
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  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    With all the current criticism we are reading about professional public employees we continue to see them doing their jobs in the face of extreme conditions.

    I witnessed an idiot conservative (sorry to make this political and I don't believe the comment is universally shared amongst conservatives) that professional firefighters only cared about their pensions. The men and women of the BPD and BFD showed the fallacy of that mindset. They continue to live up to the adage that we run in when everyone else is running out (except for LAFE who doesn't run near in the first place).
    As I stated in the previous post, you never seem to disappoint me.

    Funny thing is you have no idea how I act on the fireground when therre is are VIABLE lives to be saved.
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  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I stated in the previous post, you never seem to disappoint me.

    Funny thing is you have no idea how I act on the fireground when therre is are VIABLE lives to be saved.
    But your idea of a VIABLE life is one that has the ability to self extricate without any assistance from you or that club you claim to be a fire department. The rest of us have set the bar much higher, not falling back on a litany of excuses not to perform.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    But your idea of a VIABLE life is one that has the ability to self extricate without any assistance from you or that club you claim to be a fire department. The rest of us have set the bar much higher, not falling back on a litany of excuses not to perform.
    Not at all.

    VIABLE describes lives are property that are savable given the amount of time that it will take for the department to respond, arrive, get hose on the ground and be in a position to make entry.

    Obviously the time to respond and arrive will vary greatly based on department type, travel times to the station and distance to the fire or incident.

    The same can be said regarding the amount of time to gear up and get hose on the ground, and make entry. The majority of my VFD as an examplearrives POV, requiring me, as IC to look at least 3-5 minutes in the futue as to where the fire will be as before they can even start deplying hoselines they will have to gear-up, mask-up and gather tools and equipment.

    It's very possible that I may have a viable victim on arrival, and by the time enough members arrive and get geared up, the victim is simply no longer viable and the structure is unsafe tio make entry on.

    Yes, my defination of viable is dependant on real-lfe conditions at the time we are likely going to be able to make entry entry, not on a hope that they still may be viable.
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  20. #420
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    ^^^^^^All I see above is one excuse after another.....
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    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    ^^^^^^All I see above is one excuse after another.....
    ..... Whatever.
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  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Whatever.


    "Whatever?" What are you some petulant little teen aged girl?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-19-2013 at 04:23 AM.
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  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    "Whatever?" What are you some petulant little teen aged girl?
    Yes, "Whatever".

    The simple fact is that I will not commit my personnel into a hostile enviroment on the "possibility" that the victims or property may be viable. The crews are my priority. For me to commit them into a hostile enviroment there must be a reasonable "probability" that I have viable victims and/or property to save.

    And yes, viability is very much dependant on the training skill and experience of the crew, as well as the amount of manpower available. What may be "viable" in your community may not be in mine, even if we are talking about the same number of responders.

    If that's not in the highest traditions of the fire service, or doesen't meet the performance standards of the some of the posters here .... Whatever.
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  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I would love for every volunteer member to know that while operating his wages would be covered if he was injured, and hat their famalies would be protected.

    Would that change how I employed them and what risks I exposed them to? Likely no, as they still, even with enhanced wage coverage, are THE priority on the fireground and they need to be treated as such.
    One of the many reasons why you and your department are jokes and an insult to the fire service.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Insults are generally the work of those unable to discuss. You continue to not disappoint me.
    It's never been my goal to impress you. You might consider my remarks insults. Everyone else whose ever been a real firefighter considers them accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I stated in the previous post, you never seem to disappoint me.
    See above response.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is you have no idea how I act on the fireground when therre is are VIABLE lives to be saved.
    All we have to go on is what you have written on these boards. So we do indeed know how you act unless you've been lying. Which then becomes a whole other issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, "Whatever".

    The simple fact is that I will not commit my personnel into a hostile enviroment on the "possibility" that the victims or property may be viable. The crews are my priority. For me to commit them into a hostile enviroment there must be a reasonable "probability" that I have viable victims and/or property to save.

    And yes, viability is very much dependant on the training skill and experience of the crew, as well as the amount of manpower available. What may be "viable" in your community may not be in mine, even if we are talking about the same number of responders.

    If that's not in the highest traditions of the fire service, or doesen't meet the performance standards of the some of the posters here .... Whatever.
    You continue to delineate the difference between your joke FD staffed with joke firefighters and a real FD staffed with real firefighters. We looked for ways to do our job, you look for ways to avoid it. We did interior attack numerous times and we all went home. Most of us retired after decades of that mindset. The ones that haven't retired are still working and getting there. Given your parameters there would be numerous civilians dead or severely injured that we actually saved. Individuals you've stated are not your concern since you didn't cause the circumstances of their distress.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-19-2013 at 10:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    One of the many reasons why you and your department are jokes and an insult to the fire service.

    I never said that going home uninjured was thier priority, but when they are under my supervision, it is MY priority.

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]

    It's never been my goal to impress you. You might consider my remarks insults. Everyone else whose ever been a real firefighter considers them accurate.

    Ya....... Right.



    All we have to go on is what you have written on these boards. So we do indeed know how you act unless you've been lying. Which then becomes a whole other issue.

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]And where have I said that I would not take risks for viable victims, assuming the training, experience and resources were available to support that risk, except in the specific cases of trusss construction with possible fire in ther overhead space, or a well-involved older mobile home?[/COLOR]


    You continue to delineate the difference between your joke FD staffed with joke firefighters and a real FD staffed with real firefighters. We looked for ways to do our job, you look for ways to avoid it. We did interior attack numerous times and we all went home. Most of us retired after decades of that mindset. The ones that haven't retired are still working and getting there. Given your parameters there would be numerous civilians dead or severely injured that we actually saved. Individuals you've stated are not your concern since you didn't cause the circumstances of their distress.
    I look for ways to do the job while at the same time assuring that my members will return home after EVERY call or shift. if you want to call that avaoilding the job, I guess I can't change that.

    Funny thing is that I have also made entry into burning structures many times and I never suffered more than a strain.That being said the fires of today are much more hostile, and also far less likely to yield viable victims on arrival, than they were even 10 years ago, so you have to adjust your mindset and realize that those fires of the past have little relevance when making decisions about the fires of the present. It is the only way that you are going to assure the famalies of your members that they will in fact return home after every call or shift.

    The fact is that there is significant differnce between the abilities of my combo FD and my volunteer department. Those abilities are based on access to better training, more experience through far more fires (especially in the case of those that work fulltime for the 2 nieghboring cities) and better resources through far better funding. I have to look at each through thier own capabilities, and there are simply things that my combo department does every day that my VFD will likely never be able to do.

    For me to have the same expectations of my VFD as I do of my combo department would not only be foolish, but it would also be irresponsble and dangerous. In addition, for me to have the same expectations of either department, compared to either of the neighboring full-time departments, would also be foolish and dangerous.

    I never said that I didn't care about folks still inside, but it is my responsbility as a supervisor to care about my crew far more, and my decsions are based around that.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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