View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not ARFF ...

    It's a aircraft emergency and firefighting class for structural firefighters as part of a scheduled weeked regional fire school. It also involves some fireifghting scenarios involving passneger rail trains.

    But thanks for taking the time to look that up .... It makes my heart all warm and fuzzy that you care enough to take the time to look that up.
    You don't have a heart... and I do not care.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 04-06-2013 at 08:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    I find it hillarious that a man until a few posts ago was against FFI&II ( http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t124288/ (Sorta What I have Been Thinkin') )because they were not relivent to his department and has a signature line "Train to fight the fires you fight" is worried about an aircraft falling out of the sky in Bossier.

    You sir are a tool.
    Excellent points. They get how many aircraft and railway incidents in BPLa? Snookering the department for a padded resumè so he can move on and infect another area. The fire zombie apocalypse is near.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.
    IAFF

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    I was reading an article in the April 2013 issue of Firehouse Magazine about fires in vacant buildings (Fire Studies by James P. Smith, a retired Deputy Chief from the Philadelphia FD and the author of "Strategic and Tactical Considerations on the Fireground"). In his article, Chief Smith wrote the following:

    No building, vacant or otherwise, is worth the life of or injury to a firefighter. However, all buildings must be sized up and the size up factors weighed as to the best method of protecting life while controlling and extinguishing the fire.

    A vacant building with known or suspected occupants must be treated the same as any occupied structure.

    It is not realistic to automatically fight every vacant building fire in a defensive mode due to the potential life hazard to firefighters that could exist. The incident commander must apply common sense while controlling the aggressiveness of the firefighters to ensure safe operation.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  4. #324
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    For all of his talk about using statistics, he ignores a few simple facts.

    Thousands of unoccupied (formerly called abandoned) structures are searched every year with no injuries or firefigther deaths.

    As has been pointed out, the deaths in lightweight construction buildings from collapse are minimal.

    More die from heart attacks and MVC's.

    But why complicate the story with facts.

    See, this is what happens when you have very little real life experience and simply buy the latest and smartest sounding theory that comes along... and then apply it in a way never intended.

    It's the dumbing down of the fire service.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, it's just obvious that nobody posting here is going to change thier minds about how to operate when responding to abandoned building fire.

    The problem is when you lost that battle you expanded your refusal to enter, and do the job of firefighter, to include ANY building where the construction methods didn't meet with your approval.

    I will never go in unless there is a credible report or visual exterior indicators of occupancy. You will. Have at it, but to me it will never be worth the risk of even minor injuries to my volunteers that likely have to show up to work the next day.

    If you just leave your sentence like this it would be more truthful, "I will never go in." You have made it clear that whenever you arrive at a structure fire you are immediately doing a size-up to determine a justification, in your mind anyways, for not doing interior operations.

    No point in jabbing back and forth about it anymore.

    This quote should be on your wall...

    “Be wise enough not to be reckless, but brave enough to take great risks.”
    -Frank Warren

    That quote shows your major flaw. You believe you are a firefighting guru, but the reality is you hide your lack of knowledge by calling almost all interior operations reckless and spreading your uber safety culture of fear. KNOWLEDGE is king everywhere, but especially in the fire service, and too many today try to hide their lack of actual firefighting knowledge behind the new wave safety craze.


    Besides, I'm off the Texas A & M for the weekend for some aircraft firefighting training with a crew from my VFD (who are taking structural classes) and won't be near a computer.

    Statistically, what is the percentage of aircraft incidents annually in Bossier Parrish? And if you did what new techniques would you need anyways? I was an ARFF firefighter for 7 years and the truth is the skin of an aircraft fully involved in fire will last roughly 90 seconds. So what new tactics do you need for that that you don't already use on the structures you won't enter? We trained to enter aircraft on fire, after an initial hit with the crash truck mounted turrets, to effect final extinguishment and for rescue of any survivors. My belief is if you won't enter buildings on fire you for damn sure won't enter an aircraft on fire. So what new things did you need to learn that you will never use?


    Imageine that ... me .. near a fire.

    Laughing my a s s off...These are TRAINING FIRES, everything is controlled, and if they are aircraft mock ups they are all most likely propane fueled with a safety person at the controls to kill the fuel if something goes wrong. So yes, it is easy to imagine you there, where it all is 100% controlled and the chance of anything going wrong is minimal.
    I can't see you being closer than 100 yards to an aircraft on fire in the first place. It is chaotic, intense, and there is no time for standing around contemplating your navel. If there is any hope of saving survivors immediate action must be taken, rapid application of foam from high flow appliances to knock down the fire and create a rescue path, foam handlines to complete extinguishment and protect the rescue crews. I don't see you have the experience or the wherewithal to make those types of command decisions, or if a crew member, to be able to actually accomplish them.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-06-2013 at 06:25 PM. Reason: meaning...
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  6. #326
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    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    So what? We have had people fall through floors in homes that were occupied and being lived in daily. Other than to stir the pot what is your point?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    I am starting to get confused. I am having trouble keeping up with the terminology vacant, abandoned and what not. In a house that has someone living in it, but everyone got out, what is that called. Is that now vacant, would interior operations then be called off? In an abandoned building that has someone in it, would that not then be called occupied? Without checking how can anyone be sure that no one is inside any building? Even one that the owner said no one is in? Firefighters die fighting fire in brand new houses when no victims are inside as well as old crappy houses when no victims are inside. The opposite is also true. Size up and fire behavior should dictate tactics not someone saying "look, boarded up windows, lets go home." If fire is blowing out of every window and door in a new house should we go in right away? Should we automatically stay out of a house with boarded up windows with very little fire load and little smoke?

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I am starting to get confused. I am having trouble keeping up with the terminology vacant, abandoned and what not. In a house that has someone living in it, but everyone got out, what is that called. Is that now vacant, would interior operations then be called off? In an abandoned building that has someone in it, would that not then be called occupied? Without checking how can anyone be sure that no one is inside any building? Even one that the owner said no one is in? Firefighters die fighting fire in brand new houses when no victims are inside as well as old crappy houses when no victims are inside. The opposite is also true. Size up and fire behavior should dictate tactics not someone saying "look, boarded up windows, lets go home." If fire is blowing out of every window and door in a new house should we go in right away? Should we automatically stay out of a house with boarded up windows with very little fire load and little smoke?
    terminology should be local anyhow. Best thing to do is , listen to your trusted line officer, if he say "lets go get it" -get after it , dont worry about what to call it.
    ?

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    ...
    It's kind of funny how you keep interjecting your views into various threads. Several posters vigorously debate your views, call you out on a lot of the assertions that you make, you rarely have any evidence to back up your claims and often have no rebuttal when someone call BS. Pretty much NOBODY EVER supports your opinions and views. Eventually you throw in the towel with the "let's agree to disagree" line claiming that nobody is going to change their minds.

    Do you not see the pattern here?
    ...
    Pattern? Yup. La posts and the same gang comes into a thread to straighten out the world and keep the younguns from getting corrupted by the all powerful LaFire. Heck, he doesn't even have to post in threads anymore and he gets brought into them.

    Funny? No. It's gotten down right disgusting.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Pattern? Yup. La posts and the same gang comes into a thread to straighten out the world and keep the younguns from getting corrupted by the all powerful LaFire. Heck, he doesn't even have to post in threads anymore and he gets brought into them.

    Funny? No. It's gotten down right disgusting.
    If you are including me in this group with your broad stroke brush I will refute your statement 100%. Yes, I battle LA, but I do not mention him if he is not in the topic, and I have chastised people for mentioning him for no apparent reason other than to enflame the topic.

    You see that is the problem with the broad stroke brush, it most often covers those not involved in the least.
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  12. #332
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    Please stop taking up valuable space on these valuable electrons with all discussions that aren't sanctioned.

    An electron is a horrible thing to waste.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Hope you enjoy what College Station has to offer this weekend. Might I suggest Chuy's Mexican off of 6, they have great food and beer-aritas for drinks too. Sodolak Beefmasters on HWY 21 serves some huge steaks, cold beer and deep fried bacon. Enjoy. Then leave. Get out of my State.

    I find it hillarious that a man until a few posts ago was against FFI&II ( http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t124288/ (Sorta What I have Been Thinkin') )because they were not relivent to his department and has a signature line "Train to fight the fires you fight" is worried about an aircraft falling out of the sky in Bossier.

    You sir are a tool.
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    The class also covered operating in passenger trains for search and rescue. While we do not have any passenger trains, the skills were quite applicable to tour bus rescue operations, which we have many, many, many traveling on the 25 miles of I-20 everyday that my combo and VFD covers.

    So yes, the class was applicable.

    And yes, Sodolak's was wonderful.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-08-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    People die in fires. They always have and always will. Call that cold. Fine. But unless there is adamn good reason for the members under my chagre to enter an abandoned structure, they will not. It's that simple.
    After scrolling backwards and reading your typical inane comments, it's nice to know you are still looking for ways to avoid doing the job of a firefighter. Given your numerous grammatical errors in several posts, it's a wonder you have a job in pub-ed. Unless you were the best that could be found at that price. Which is scary.

    I'm fortunate to be able to say (like most of the others on this forum) that we worked for real fire departments and not the fake ones like yourself. If you're afraid of getting hurt, there is no reason to respond in the first place given the dangers involved in responding code 3 on an emergency vehicle. Which only means you certainly want the glamor of being a firefighter but none of the responsibility. A trait I find very common in many VFD firefighters.

    To paraphrase my favorite line from the 2012 presidential election, "please proceed sir."
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    Last edited by scfire86; 04-08-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    So yes, the class was applicable.
    How was the class applicable? Did it include a block on watching aircrews get bar-be-cued? You've made it clear repeatedly you have no intention of doing anything that might cause you or one of your crew to get an "oowweee" and not go home that night or cause them to miss work the next day.

    I can assure you, if you believe vacant structures are potentially dangerous, they don't compare to aircraft. Especially some the size of those you mentioned. The C-5 is longer than the Wright Brothers first flight with a cargo area alone that is probably larger than most of the single family dwellings in your town that is "protected" by your pathetic FD and its group of masqueraders. And that is if the plane is empty. Few homes typically have thousands of gallons of jet fuel attached or any other type of cargo that is designed specifically to kill human beings. We won't even discuss the potential hazards for bombers or fighters.

    I congratulate you on knowing the difference in aircraft types, but we all know if there is an aircraft incident you'll be wetting yourself hoping that someone shows up soon allowing you to slink away.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-08-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which only means you certainly want the glamor of being a firefighter but none of the responsibility. A trait I find very common in many VFD firefighters.
    Wussiness does not acknowledge a paycheck.
    conrad427 likes this.
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  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    How was the class applicable? Did it include a block on watching aircrews get bar-be-cued? You've made it clear repeatedly you have no intention of doing anything that might cause you or one of your crew to get an "oowweee" and not go home that night or cause them to miss work the next day.

    I can assure you, if you believe vacant structures are potentially dangerous, they don't compare to aircraft. Especially some the size of those you mentioned. The C-5 is longer than the Wright Brothers first flight with a cargo area alone that is probably larger than most of the single family dwellings in your town that is "protected" by your pathetic FD and its group of masqueraders. And that is if the plane is empty. Few homes typically have thousands of gallons of jet fuel attached or any other type of cargo that is designed specifically to kill human beings. We won't even discuss the potential hazards for bombers or fighters.

    I congratulate you on knowing the difference in aircraft types, but we all know if there is an aircraft incident you'll be wetting yourself hoping that someone shows up soon allowing you to slink away.
    As I stated earlier I was a CFR Firefighter for the WiANG and we had KC-135R refulers, the base across the airport has C-130's. We saw B-52's on occasion as well as C-5's. I was told a C5 could carry 6 Greyhound busses in its cargo hold, with 72 soldiers in the deck above that and a flight crew of 15 for long missions. Heck the cockpit had bunkroom for the flight crew. My base was involved in winter weather flight testing of the C-17. We also occasionally saw military C-26s, helicopters, varous fighters, including the F-117, even C-141, B-1 and B-2 bombers.

    Military aircraft firefighting is not for the faint of heart. As a firefighter you are expected to get in there and save the pilots. Airplanes can be replaced but it takes months to train pilots and years for them to build credible experience. So there is no standing around, and there is no writing people off if there is ANY chance to save them.

    By the way, my home is in the flight path of 2 major airports, and an air force training facility, so besides civilian traffic any and all type of military aircraft have flown over my house, and continue to do so almost daily. Nevermind when the EAA show in Oshkosh occurs then I might see anything from a home made "Holy Crap I hope that doesn't fall apart" type of aircraft to a B-17 flying overhead.

    I agree that LA does not have the wherewithal to do any type of aircraft rescue firefighting, and to compare a bus to a train in rescue operations is just ludicrous. Try using normal extrication techniques on a train car!!
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  18. #338
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    While the risk is higher for those of us reasonably close to airports and military bases, airy-o-planes fly over every single one of us. My department used to have an ARFF curriculum that stated there were aircraft flight patterns over every single county in the United States.

    And by the way, even if there weren't, planes ain't necessarily on their flight paths when they crash.
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  19. #339
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Funny thing is that we are on the approach and departure path for Barksdale, and the ditching area for the B-52's is in our district.

    In fact, on a typical day at least 30-40 B-52's, A-10's, C-5's, C-17's and a assortment of other various craft including fighters and command & control aircraft will fly over our district, including directly over ou most populated residential areas, at less than 3,000 feet as they land an take-off. And they also fly over my VFD's district as well (They were the one's sending me, not Bossier). We also have helos landing most day's at the National Guard facility that we cover.

    So yes, the class was applicable.
    My community is in the approach and departure pattern for three airports, KBOS, KBED and 9B1 (9B1 is in the city, 2 miles from the Casa DaGonz))

    9B1 has two active flight schools, one for fixed wing, the other for rotary wing and has had aircraft as large as the Pilatus PC-12, Sikorsky S-76 and Marine 1 land there

    If LA thinks that his course would prepare him for incidents involving military aircraft; he's in for a very rude awakening if one happens to go down " in da parish". Military aircraft do not have to follow the FAA 's FAR and AIM rules and regulations, and can be carrying live ordinance and tens of thousands of pounds of fuel on board, not to mention ejection seats and other "stuff".
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 04-09-2013 at 06:47 AM.
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  20. #340
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    Certainly not expecting to be able to work a military crash with one days training. I know it's hard to believe but we already have a response plan in place with Barksdale for them to come out and deal with the aircraft.

    Took the class just to get a very, very basic understanding of aircraft firefighting operations as well as additional basic knowledge on the aircraft themselves. We already have have had some basic Aircraft Operations for Structural Firefighters classroom programs, but I wanted just a little bit of hands-on, and the command staff at my VFD agreed that it would be useful.

    AS I have stated earlier, both of my departments have the possibility of dealing with Blackhawks coming into Camp Minden as well asr med helos, and both departments have responded in the past to crashes and emergency landings on highways involving general aviation aircraft. So yes, the class makes sense for both of my agencies.

    And Fryed, the instructors agreed that the basic search and rescue principles practiced in the train evolutions would also be applicable in large bus operations.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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