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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #361
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Well, if we have decided to enter and do a search and the search comes up negative, what should we do then? I read about firefighters dying in and on abandoned buildings, but I never hear if they were still conducting a search or not. If we did the search and are sure no one is inside should we continue interior attack or move to the outside and protect exposures, letting the involved abandoned building burn down?
    I only ask because we have established if conditions warrant, most of us are going to do a search. OH, I am also glad I got my avatar working, even though my bunker gear pictured is subcontracted through the Chicago Tent and Awning Company.
    Well, we would probably already be engaging in an interior attack and would probably see it through.

    However, as always, it depends on fire conditions and building conditions as found.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  2. #362
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    I was about to say that I would love to see azzhole try and pin an ejection seat but just realized that once he found out there were explosives involved that would be his "out" excuse for covering his yellow spine.........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I was about to say that I would love to see azzhole try and pin an ejection seat but just realized that once he found out there were explosives involved that would be his "out" excuse for covering his yellow spine.........
    He would use the ejection seat as an excuse for not attempting a rescue saying the pilot failed to save themselves.
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  4. #364
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    on the edge of the incident - Just six little words that say much more.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    on the edge of the incident - Just six little words that say much more.
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-11-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    You need to take "knowledge" over again.
    IAFF

  7. #367
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    Which is your way of telling the rest of us that the citizens of Bossier Parish VFD just had their tax dollars wasted.

    You don't possess specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment. So there was no point in your attendance.

    To quote one of my favorite lines from Henry IV:

    "Thou art a natural coward without instinct."
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-11-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you are dealing with a military aircraft, often "those six little words" are the best appraoch you can take.

    Not much diffeernt than water, ice, collapse, confined space or other technical rescue operations, or specialized firefighting operations such as industrial, where specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment are required.
    From what I have heard you say over and over, that is pretty much where you prefer to operate from on any scene.
    FyredUp and DeputyChiefGonzo like this.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which is your way of telling the rest of us that the citizens of Bossier Parish VFD just had their tax dollars wasted.

    Do you actually have reading comprehension skills? .... For About the 12th time .. my VFD is not in Bossier Parish.

    And no, they didn't. the goal was to have one member of the command staff obtain SOME additional knowledge about aircraft response operations. The goal was met.


    You don't possess specialized command skills, operational skills, knowledge, training, experience and equipment. So there was no point in your attendance.

    To quote one of my favorite lines from Henry IV:

    "Thou art a natural coward without instinct."
    ..... Prove it
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    From what I have heard you say over and over, that is pretty much where you prefer to operate from on any scene.
    Then you have been misreading.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #371
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Prove it
    You yourself have proven it, with your own words, so many times it seems pointless for you to deny it any further.
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  12. #372
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    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit?

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... Prove it
    You're previous commentary is all the proof required.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campman View Post
    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit?
    I have no idea.

    They fully understand how I feel about aggressive, unwarranted operations that the fire service so often performs.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #375
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    Originally Posted by Campman
    LaFireEducator....Was just curious if your chief from Station 1 or chief from volly station 2 ever visit this forum or the other forums you visit
    ?

    LA....
    I have no idea.

    They fully understand how I feel about aggressive, unwarranted operations that the fire service so often performs.
    Since at least one of your Chiefs still allows the firefighters to do aggressive interior attacks, he thinks your point of view is skewed and irrelevant, just like 99.99% of those here do.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no idea.

    They fully understand how I feel about aggressive, unwarranted operations that the fire service so often performs.
    The problem with your statement is you have plainly stated that any fire beyond a one room fire, and sometimes even that one room if the building construction type doesn't meet your approval, would preclude you doing any interior operations even if there were viable victims inside the structure. You stated, in this very topic, that building construction types would prevent you from entering if the building was on fire, no comment on how much fire involvement, just if it was built in a method you don't like. You have said OVER and OVER in a cold callous manner that people die and you have not one problem at all sleeping at night after having written off possibly savable victims because of your unending list of excuses for not entering. You have even said you would write off your own family and try to prevent real firefighters from saving them.

    The issue is you deem the MAJORITY of interior ops as too aggressive and unwarranted in your black and white world, while the rest of us use training, knowledge, real world experience and skills honed from actual use to determine whether it is a go/no go situation. We look at structural stability and fire extent to determine whether interior ops are possible. YOU look at reasons NOT to enter as correct, we look at possibilities to save lives and property as our sworn duty and when we can do them, we will. You love to call us reckless and dangerous no matter how many times we have told you we are not suicidal lunatics unthinkingly running into buildings. Frankly I don't like thinking of you as a coward, but if you look for more reasons not to do the job than to do it, then stay in your office and play pub ed and car seat installation man and leave the rest to people who actually want to fight fire and save lives.
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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem with your statement is you have plainly stated that any fire beyond a one room fire, and sometimes even that one room if the building construction type doesn't meet your approval, would preclude you doing any interior operations even if there were viable victims inside the structure.

    Not true, but hey, at this point type what you like.

    You stated, in this very topic, that building construction types would prevent you from entering if the building was on fire, no comment on how much fire involvement, just if it was built in a method you don't like.

    Yes. if it's a building construction that is built to burn or built to collapse the concept of putting our people into it, just because "we're firefighters" or "it's part of the job" makes no flippin' sense. If I have any reason to believe that the structure is in a position to kill or even injure my personnel, there is simply no reason to make entry, unless lives are at stake, and even then, yes, entry may not be made because ... Wait for it ... Here it comes ..... We are the priority.
    You have said OVER and OVER in a cold callous manner that people die and you have not one problem at all sleeping at night after having written off possibly savable victims because of your unending list of excuses for not entering. You have even said you would write off your own family and try to prevent real firefighters from saving them.

    The issue is you deem the MAJORITY of interior ops as too aggressive and unwarranted in your black and white world, while the rest of us use training, knowledge, real world experience and skills honed from actual use to determine whether it is a go/no go situation.

    Depends on the department, and I have stated that many times.

    Combo department .. We can make entry safely based on our manpower, resources, training and experience probably 70% of the time. 10% of the time it's marginal, which means, I likely would not as it's too aggressive for my taste. Same percentage would have applied to my previous VFD, who had a fair amount of training and experience, as well as excellent resources when coupled with automatic mutual aid.

    Volunteer department .. probably 50% with that 10% marginal that likely most of the officers would operate interior but I would operate exterior only. Limited manpower, training and experience. Resources improving.

    And yes, I know of several departments where the percentage may only be 20-30% ... or less ... and that's perfectly acceptable. Very limited manpower, training, experience and resources. Bottom line is that operate in a manner to keep their guys unhurt, even if the burn most of the buildings they respond to.


    We look at structural stability and fire extent to determine whether interior ops are possible.

    And so do I .. except in situations where there is nothing viable or of value to save, such as abandoned structures. Simply no reason to risk our lives or risk getting hurt in a building that the owner has walked away from. No, that is not, and never should be "part of the job".


    YOU look at reasons NOT to enter as correct, we look at possibilities to save lives and property as our sworn duty and when we can do them, we will.

    I look at a situation and see ways to get our members hurt, then decide if the reward is worth the risk. if you call that reasons not to act, have at it. I call that protecting the members to fight another day ..... When there is someone or something of value to save.

    You love to call us reckless and dangerous no matter how many times we have told you we are not suicidal lunatics unthinkingly running into buildings.

    Never called anyone reckless on these forums. have I talked about actions that I consider to be dangerous or inappropriate risk given the reward? Sure. have I talked about the culture that says that we must extinguish every fire rather than in some situations, just letting nature take it's course? Yup. But I have never called anyone reckless.

    Do I think that some folks in here, and in the fire service in general are just plain wrong when it comes to fire attack operations? Sure do. But I have never called them reckless.


    Frankly I don't like thinking of you as a coward, but if you look for more reasons not to do the job than to do it, then stay in your office and play pub ed and car seat installation man and leave the rest to people who actually want to fight fire and save lives.
    And frankly I don't care what you think. My job as an officer or senior man first and foremost is simple ... Keep the guys alive and yes, unhurt by making decisions that protect them, as they have jobs to report to in the morning. If that means not entering structures, not searching structures, not making rescues and generally preventing them from not performing as you think firefighters should, so be it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #378
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    Since at least one of your Chiefs still allows the firefighters to do aggressive interior attacks, he thinks your point of view is skewed and irrelevant, just like 99.99% of those here do.

    Both of my departments, and Chiefs, "allow" us to do aggressive interior attacks.

    Trick is, resources, manpower, training, experience and water supply is far more limited on my VFD than my combo department, so the opportunity to perform safe interior operations is far more limited.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    You stated, in this very topic, that building construction types would prevent you from entering if the building was on fire, no comment on how much fire involvement, just if it was built in a method you don't like.

    Yes. if it's a building construction that is built to burn or built to collapse the concept of putting our people into it, just because "we're firefighters" or "it's part of the job" makes no flippin' sense. If I have any reason to believe that the structure is in a position to kill or even injure my personnel, there is simply no reason to make entry, unless lives are at stake, and even then, yes, entry may not be made because ... Wait for it ... Here it comes ..... We are the priority.
    Hate to break the news to you, but....wait for it...........here it comes.......ALL STRUCTURES THAT ARE ON FIRE ARE CAPABLE OF KILLING OR INJURING FIREFIGHTERS!!


    The issue is you deem the MAJORITY of interior ops as too aggressive and unwarranted in your black and white world, while the rest of us use training, knowledge, real world experience and skills honed from actual use to determine whether it is a go/no go situation.

    Depends on the department, and I have stated that many times.
    I'm willing to concede that there may be places in which it may be prudent to take a more conservative approach to handling an incident if the available personnel are undertrained, underexperienced or simply just not capable of performing interior fire attack and/or search and having them do so presents an extraordinary risk to them. However, if that is the case, then I would submit that the use of the terms "firefighter" and "fire department" is inappropriate to describe those personnel individually and collectively. Real Fire Departments with real Firefighters are prepared to operate interior EVERY time the apparatus leaves the station, regardless of whether or not fire and building conditions will allow them to do so upon arrival.


    And yes, I know of several departments where the percentage may only be 20-30% ... or less ... and that's perfectly acceptable. Very limited manpower, training, experience and resources. Bottom line is that operate in a manner to keep their guys unhurt, even if the burn most of the buildings they respond to.
    "Perfectly acceptable" to who? You?


    You love to call us reckless and dangerous no matter how many times we have told you we are not suicidal lunatics unthinkingly running into buildings.

    Never called anyone reckless on these forums. have I talked about actions that I consider to be dangerous or inappropriate risk given the reward? Sure. have I talked about the culture that says that we must extinguish every fire rather than in some situations, just letting nature take it's course? Yup. But I have never called anyone reckless.

    Do I think that some folks in here, and in the fire service in general are just plain wrong when it comes to fire attack operations? Sure do. But I have never called them reckless.
    You may not have used the actual term "reckless", however you have repeatedly presented your argument in a fashion that insinuates such.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes. if it's a building construction that is built to burn or built to collapse the concept of putting our people into it, just because "we're firefighters" or "it's part of the job" makes no flippin' sense. If I have any reason to believe that the structure is in a position to kill or even injure my personnel, there is simply no reason to make entry, unless lives are at stake, and even then, yes, entry may not be made because ... Wait for it ... Here it comes ..... We are the priority.
    I know of no buildings that were built to burn or collapse. This rationalization is one of your more priceless comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And frankly I don't care what you think. My job as an officer or senior man first and foremost is simple ... Keep the guys alive and yes, unhurt by making decisions that protect them, as they have jobs to report to in the morning. If that means not entering structures, not searching structures, not making rescues and generally preventing them from not performing as you think firefighters should, so be it.
    My job as a captain was to keep guys alive and unhurt as well. Which I did (with the exception of some minor scrapes) during my career. My guys all went home alive and well after doing interior attack numerous times. We didn't look for ways to avoid doing our jobs.

    These statements alone make you being sent to the ARFF class all the more laughable. Given your statements I am assured you will never engage in a suppression or rescue effort for any aircraft larger than a RANS S-9. Even then I have my doubts you will engage because you might get an oowwee.
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