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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #381
    Forum Member RyanK63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes. if it's a building construction that is built to burn or built to collapse the concept of putting our people into it, just because "we're firefighters" or "it's part of the job" makes no flippin' sense. If I have any reason to believe that the structure is in a position to kill or even injure my personnel, there is simply no reason to make entry, unless lives are at stake, and even then, yes, entry may not be made because ... Wait for it ... Here it comes ..... We are the priority.


    I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but I don't consider myself the priority and my crew feels the same. We took an oath to protect life and property, not put ourselves before those in need. I love my life and my crew and I'd do anything I can for them, but a real firefighter understands the oath we took.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Then you have been misreading.
    In your world I guess I have. I’m not going to take the time nor waste the effort to go back and quote some of your thoughts and ideas. We all pretty much know them.

    I took an oath to save lives and protect property and I take that oath to mean to do the best job that I can do every time we go out the door. Who am I to judge the worth of a person’s property? As many have stated we are not going to run into a building that has issues (falling in, fire blowing out every orifice, ECT ECT). My job on a fire is to extinguish the fire as quickly and safely as possible. If the owner chooses to bull doze what is left after the fire then that is his choice, but we are going to do what we can to leave as much standing as possible.

    I guess some of my mentality comes from being a kid and watching my dad and several of our neighbors use vacant/abandoned houses to store seed and chemicals for the upcoming spring planting season. That comes back to my statement of whom am I to judge the worth of a property. Sure if the known owner says let it burn then let it burn.

    To me it is pretty simple. If it is burning, put the fire out and go home.

    I wonder what would happen if when confronted with a vacant/abandoned you made the same effort as you would for the 500,000 dollar house. If nothing else you give the young guys more experience in the ART of fighting fire. Time and time again I hear that the next generation has no experience, well use every chance to get them experience (and a burn box is not experience).
    Last edited by rm1524; 04-13-2013 at 01:49 PM.

  3. #383
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And frankly I don't care what you think. My job as an officer or senior man first and foremost is simple ... Keep the guys alive and yes, unhurt by making decisions that protect them, as they have jobs to report to in the morning. If that means not entering structures, not searching structures, not making rescues and generally preventing them from not performing as you think firefighters should, so be it.
    Again, if you are unwilling to enter structures with viable victims because you are afraid of getting hurt then find another hobby to keep you entertained. This is firefighting, it is dangerous, even under the best conditions, and no one has said run into unsafe buildings fully involved in fire where there is nothing to gain. You however, have said repeatedly that building construction alone would prevent you from entering, not extent of the fire, but building construction. Seriously, how can you see leaving viable victims to die because you are unwilling to enter a structurally sound building on fire because the construction technique frightens you? If you want me to I can find where you said construction type ALONE may prevent you entering, I can find where you said you would prevent firefighters from trying to save your family if you deemed it unsafe, how you would leave kids to burn to death in a car because it wasn't your area.

    I only give a partial damn about you at all because I don't want the bovine scatological nonsense you pass off as firefighting knowledge to infect any young firefighters that read the posts on this site. Otherwise I really could not possibly pretend to care less what you do in Bossier Parrish or your little volly FD, or who in Louisiana believes you are a firefighting messiah.

    Real experience, real world training, and keeping up with the latest information allows firefighters to make wise choices on when to enter and when not to enter. The truth is simple though, and this seems to escape you, our job is to save lives and protect property. A solid fact based risk versus hazard analysis is done as a part of a skilled size-up on every fire. That doesn't mean writing anything off before you arrive, or determining you will enter before you arrive. It means taking it all in and making the right decision. Frankly, I don't want to be on a fire department, or work with firefighters, that aren't willing to risk anything in an effort to do their job.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-13-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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  4. #384
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Again, if you are unwilling to enter structures with viable victims because you are afraid of getting hurt then find another hobby to keep you entertained. This is firefighting, it is dangerous, even under the best conditions, and no one has said run into unsafe buildings fully involved in fire where there is nothing to gain. You however, have said repeatedly that building construction alone would prevent you from entering, not extent of the fire, but building construction. Seriously, how can you see leaving viable victims to die because you are unwilling to enter a structurally sound building on fire because the construction technique frightens you? If you want me to I can find where you said construction type ALONE may prevent you entering, I can find where you said you would prevent firefighters from trying to save your family if you deemed it unsafe, how you would leave kids to burn to death in a car because it wasn't your area.

    I only give a partial damn about you at all because I don't want the bovine scatological nonsense you pass off as firefighting knowledge to infect any young firefighters that read the posts on this site. Otherwise I really could not possibly pretend to care less what you do in Bossier Parrish or your little volly FD, or who in Louisiana believes you are a firefighting messiah.

    Real experience, real world training, and keeping up with the latest information allows firefighters to make wise choices on when to enter and when not to enter. The truth is simple though, and this seems to escape you, our job is tosave lives and protect property. A solid fact based risk versus hazard analysis is done as a part of a skilled size-up on every fire. That doesn't mean writing anything off before you arrive, or determining you will enter before you arrive. It means taking it all in and making the right decision. Frankly, I don't want to be on a fire department, or work with firefighters, that aren't willing to risk anything in an effort to do their job.
    Bing-freaking o!
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  5. #385
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bing-freaking o!
    Thanks Chief.
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  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Real experience, real world training, and keeping up with the latest information allows firefighters to make wise choices on when to enter and when not to enter. The truth is simple though, and this seems to escape you, our job is to save lives and protect property. A solid fact based risk versus hazard analysis is done as a part of a skilled size-up on every fire. That doesn't mean writing anything off before you arrive, or determining you will enter before you arrive. It means taking it all in and making the right decision. Frankly, I don't want to be on a fire department, or work with firefighters, that aren't willing to risk anything in an effort to do their job.
    Well said. Though I doubt our leeedle friend from Bossier has the sense God gave a lemon to understand.
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  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but I don't consider myself the priority and my crew feels the same. We took an oath to protect life and property, not put ourselves before those in need. I love my life and my crew and I'd do anything I can for them, but a real firefighter understands the oath we took.
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.

    Of course in my world, most of the folks that I work with are volunteers, who in LA, don;t have the luxury of wage protection if they are injured while volunteering. Nope ... LA Workman's Comp does not cover that, so in the end it comes down the officer making decisions for his men (and women) that will not get them hurt so they can continue to provide for their families. Maybe that's why keeping them unhurt is my priority.

    Most of the career members here are Civil service, that covers 100% of their wages while they are out, and for the few departments that fall under or over the population requirements and are not civil service, Workman's Comp will cover the vast majority of their missed wages if they are out injured.
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  8. #388
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.

    Of course in my world, most of the folks that I work with are volunteers, who in LA, don;t have the luxury of wage protection if they are injured while volunteering. Nope ... LA Workman's Comp does not cover that, so in the end it comes down the officer making decisions for his men (and women) that will not get them hurt so they can continue to provide for their families. Maybe that's why keeping them unhurt is my priority.

    Most of the career members here are Civil service, that covers 100% of their wages while they are out, and for the few departments that fall under or over the population requirements and are not civil service, Workman's Comp will cover the vast majority of their missed wages if they are out injured.
    And if all the volunteers in the state said in a mass show of support that they are done, they will walk away, unless they are covered by "Worker's Comp" what do you think would happen LA? If a mass walk out happened, other than the guys like you that are only out for themselves, how long do you think it would take for the politicians to wake up? But then again, you are about excuses and explaining not doing anything because it is easier than actually working to affect change.

    Frankly, and I have said this to you before, if I walked in to join your volly or combo FD and was told I had no "Worker's Comp" if hurt at an FD emergency, I would politely say no thank you and be gone. You see the fact that your pitiful state has no respect for volunteer firefighters is pathetic. If you really cared about protecting your vollies you would work to change this ridiculous and backward situation, not just whine about it.
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  9. #389
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.
    This is the most accurate statement on this thread you have made to date. Don't be ashamed, embrace it. It's ok to admit that. There are plenty of very relevant jobs in the fire service that don't require any risk, personal sacrifice, or danger. Your core discipline, PubEd is one of them, stick with it and be good at it.
    Of course in my world, most of the folks that I work with are volunteers, who in LA, don;t have the luxury of wage protection if they are injured while volunteering. Nope ... LA Workman's Comp does not cover that, so in the end it comes down the officer making decisions for his men (and women) that will not get them hurt so they can continue to provide for their families. Maybe that's why keeping them unhurt is my priority.

    Most of the career members here are Civil service, that covers 100% of their wages while they are out, and for the few departments that fall under or over the population requirements and are not civil service, Workman's Comp will cover the vast majority of their missed wages if they are out injured.
    As far as your workmens' comp, how about using your key-board intelligence and get this changed? If this is such a concern, make a difference. Educate the public!
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.

    Of course in my world, most of the folks that I work with are volunteers, who in LA, don;t have the luxury of wage protection if they are injured while volunteering. Nope ... LA Workman's Comp does not cover that, so in the end it comes down the officer making decisions for his men (and women) that will not get them hurt so they can continue to provide for their families. Maybe that's why keeping them unhurt is my priority.

    Most of the career members here are Civil service, that covers 100% of their wages while they are out, and for the few departments that fall under or over the population requirements and are not civil service, Workman's Comp will cover the vast majority of their missed wages if they are out injured.
    We're supposedly talking about firefighters and regardless of what you think, there is an inherent amount of risk involved in actually performing the duties of a Firefighter. The public knows this and expects that we will not actively seek to avoid all risk in order to protect them and their property.

    I can understand the desire to avoid potential financial struggles stemming from a line of duty injury for your personnel however, what is the public to think of their supposed fire department when there is more concern for the possibility of lost wages due to an injury that hasn't happened (and the shortcomings of WC in LA) than there is concern for citizens in actual need of the services expected from their fire department?

    Additionally, what is the public to think if said department fails to inform the public that this lack of WC coverage will negatively effect the fire department's ability to properly serve them in their time of need while also failing to ask the public to help them with lobbying the legislative body that has the ability to remove this obstacle?

  11. #391
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    Not to get too far off of topic but, we are currently working on work comp for the dept. We went to the state and the legislature killed the vol. work comp bill in committee. So we went to the commissioners and told them we needed it. They agreed and we went to the people to ask if they would support the tax hike to pay for workers comp. To our surprise, the citizens are overwhelmingly in favor of the tax increase for work comp. We had assumed they would be against it, so we had never asked.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Not to get too far off of topic but, we are currently working on work comp for the dept. We went to the state and the legislature killed the vol. work comp bill in committee. So we went to the commissioners and told them we needed it. They agreed and we went to the people to ask if they would support the tax hike to pay for workers comp. To our surprise, the citizens are overwhelmingly in favor of the tax increase for work comp. We had assumed they would be against it, so we had never asked.
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  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Guess I'm not a real firefighter then.
    So far so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Of course in my world, most of the folks that I work with are volunteers, who in LA, don;t have the luxury of wage protection if they are injured while volunteering. Nope ... LA Workman's Comp does not cover that, so in the end it comes down the officer making decisions for his men (and women) that will not get them hurt so they can continue to provide for their families. Maybe that's why keeping them unhurt is my priority.
    Which is why those protected by VFD's like yours have a false sense of security.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of the career members here are Civil service, that covers 100% of their wages while they are out, and for the few departments that fall under or over the population requirements and are not civil service, Workman's Comp will cover the vast majority of their missed wages if they are out injured.
    See above response.
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  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    As far as your workmens' comp, how about using your key-board intelligence and get this changed? If this is such a concern, make a difference. Educate the public!

    The fact is that there have been significant efforts in the past to change this, and it has not.

    Without the political power of the career fire service, who does not have a dog in this fight, as their members are covered by civil service, as well as in many cases, their municipalities insurance, their has been little progress. The fact is that LA WC is a very powerful entity, with many friends in state government, and getting it to budge, on this issue, as I understand it, has been almost impossible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    We're supposedly talking about firefighters and regardless of what you think, there is an inherent amount of risk involved in actually performing the duties of a Firefighter. The public knows this and expects that we will not actively seek to avoid all risk in order to protect them and their property.

    And never did i say that we can, or should avoid ALL risk. Every response has a level of risk. That being said, we can minimize risk by responding hot only to calls that require a hot response. We can minimize risk by training effectively. And we can minimize risk by acting aggressively only when there are both adequate resources to support aggressive operations and when there are viable victims to rescue and savable property. We do control the amount of risk by effective size-ups and being realistic about the capabilities of both the department overall and the resources we have on that scene vs. the conditions that have been presented, and understanding that we, in many cases, cannot change the outcome.


    I can understand the desire to avoid potential financial struggles stemming from a line of duty injury for your personnel however, what is the public to think of their supposed fire department when there is more concern for the possibility of lost wages due to an injury that hasn't happened (and the shortcomings of WC in LA) than there is concern for citizens in actual need of the services expected from their fire department?

    Again ... Act and assume risk when taking risk is warranted.


    Additionally, what is the public to think if said department fails to inform the public that this lack of WC coverage will negatively effect the fire department's ability to properly serve them in their time of need while also failing to ask the public to help them with lobbying the legislative body that has the ability to remove this obstacle?
    And to the best of my knowledge this type of campaign has not been undertaken by the State Fireman's Association. I don't know the exact history of this as it has been a long standing issue as I am not involved at the state level with the association. That being said, taking it to the streets may not be a bad idea. However, the downside is that, based on past history, if we do get it changed I foresee some VERY significant rate changes by WC which would likely have some very, very significant effects on the hundreds of very small rural VFDs in the state.
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  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And if all the volunteers in the state said in a mass show of support that they are done, they will walk away, unless they are covered by "Worker's Comp" what do you think would happen LA? If a mass walk out happened, other than the guys like you that are only out for themselves, how long do you think it would take for the politicians to wake up? But then again, you are about excuses and explaining not doing anything because it is easier than actually working to affect change.

    Again, given the friends that WC seems to have based on their ability to seemingly do what they wish in the past, I honestly don't know what effect that would have. I am no expert on this issues, but from what I understand there has been political pressure brought on LA WC in the past regarding this and they simply have refused to budge.


    Frankly, and I have said this to you before, if I walked in to join your volly or combo FD and was told I had no "Worker's Comp" if hurt at an FD emergency, I would politely say no thank you and be gone. You see the fact that your pitiful state has no respect for volunteer firefighters is pathetic. If you really cared about protecting your vollies you would work to change this ridiculous and backward situation, not just whine about it.
    There is workman's comp for volunteers, but it is just for the medical bills, not lost wages.

    And there have been folks in the past that I know of that have applied, and left when they found out that lost wages are not covered. It is a potential recruiting issue, especially with potential members with famalies.
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  17. #397
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SPFDRum
    As far as your workmens' comp, how about using your key-board intelligence and get this changed? If this is such a concern, make a difference. Educate the public!
    LA responses...
    The fact is that there have been significant efforts in the past to change this, and it has not.
    And to the best of my knowledge this type of campaign has not been undertaken by the State Fireman's Association. I don't know the exact history of this as it has been a long standing issue as I am not involved at the state level with the association. That being said, taking it to the streets may not be a bad idea.
    So, what is it?
    You've tried and failed or haven't tried?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    LA responses...



    So, what is it?
    You've tried and failed or haven't tried?
    To the best of my knowledge there have been significant efforts by the State Firefighters Association, which represents primarily volunteer personnel on the state level, to change the situation. As I understand it, this included discussions with WC and even included the introduction of legislation requiring a change in WC's policy, but it which failed to garner enough support to even get out of committee.

    On the combo side, our Deputy Chief handles most issues at the state level, so that is all that I can tell you.

    As I stated above, even if the policy did change, the rate change to provide this protection would likely offer a significant issue for many of the rural VFDs in the state.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-14-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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    Seriously -your neighbor to the North has had workmans comp in place since the early 80s. i guess dirt poor Arkansas is more "progressive" than LA - -
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that there have been significant efforts in the past to change this, and it has not.

    Without the political power of the career fire service, who does not have a dog in this fight, as their members are covered by civil service, as well as in many cases, their municipalities insurance, their has been little progress. The fact is that LA WC is a very powerful entity, with many friends in state government, and getting it to budge, on this issue, as I understand it, has been almost impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And to the best of my knowledge this type of campaign has not been undertaken by the State Fireman's Association. I don't know the exact history of this as it has been a long standing issue as I am not involved at the state level with the association. That being said, taking it to the streets may not be a bad idea. However, the downside is that, based on past history, if we do get it changed I foresee some VERY significant rate changes by WC which would likely have some very, very significant effects on the hundreds of very small rural VFDs in the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is workman's comp for volunteers, but it is just for the medical bills, not lost wages.

    And there have been folks in the past that I know of that have applied, and left when they found out that lost wages are not covered. It is a potential recruiting issue, especially with potential members with famalies.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To the best of my knowledge there have been significant efforts by the State Firefighters Association, which represents primarily volunteer personnel on the state level, to change the situation. As I understand it, this included discussions with WC and even included the introduction of legislation requiring a change in WC's policy, but it which failed to garner enough support to even get out of committee.

    On the combo side, our Deputy Chief handles most issues at the state level, so that is all that I can tell you.

    As I stated above, even if the policy did change, the rate change to provide this protection would likely offer a significant issue for many of the rural VFDs in the state.
    The WC system that we have certainly has it drawbacks, but it is better than yours. It was acquired after years political action by our state firefighter association.

    But you don't see the need for unions, yet I'm sure you also see no connection between a disastrous WC policy and your attempts to believe your VFD is effective at anything more than yard breathing or washing off foundations.
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