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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty_Bev View Post
    How did you pass the written?
    It's pretty funny that you complained about what you felt were antagonizing responses to the OP, but then you turn around and post this response (after saying you were done with the site).

    I said maybe I should go to law school. Didn't say I was going. You've managed to prove my assertion and, I guess, without even trying too hard.
    It's called sarcastic humor or in fire service terminology, "ball busting". Something you'll have to deal with if you spend anytime in a fire department.

    The comment was actually quite funny since you offered an alternative career path that is just as full, if not more so of the very things you are complaining about regarding firefighters.

    People in the fire-service (such as yourself ???) are supposed to be above the things you mentioned and, correct me if I'm wrong, a bunch of bickering, argumentative, meat-heads aren't going to be very effective on the job. In other words: that is not a component of the job. But this is the internet: where the self-repressed and boorish come out and shine.
    This may come as a surprise to you, but firefighters are actual human beings and therefore not immune to all of the feelings, behaviors, etc. that other human beings with different occupations experience. Like the rest of the world, some of us have an easier time being "nice", some of us are "dicks" and some of us fall somewhere in the middle.

    You clearly have little to no understanding of what "the job" entails. Yes, there is some "internet tough guy" stuff in some of the responses, but most of the responses here are not much different than what the person would get sitting around the kitchen table in the fire station. We tend to be pretty blunt and to the point when discussing "the job".

    Haven't decided to take a job with a Fire Dept. yet. If I make it through, I'll decide. I can assure you though I won't be taking part in this site - forum. Thanks! You could've gone the other route and been encouraging or said something positive. So bye to you too!
    Get over yourself. It'll help you out in life, particularly if you ever find yourself working in a fire station.


  2. #442
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    I would stick around, you WILL learn something. The fire service is a poor choice if you need your *** kissed all the time. I had an officer tell me one time "wow, you finally managed to not F@#$ that up!" It was one of the nicest things I has ever been told.

    Believe it or not, if you can get along with these guys and not get butt hurt all the time you stand a pretty good chance of surviving fire house life. I would say the different personalities represented here are a pretty good representation of fire houses across the country, and there is nothing wrong with that fact.

    The senior man might say" hey, the FNG cant figure out the bowline on a bight". If you have an entitlement mentality you will get mad and wait to be shown. If you have initiative you will work harder and figure it out.
    Last edited by conrad427; 10-09-2013 at 11:17 AM.
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  3. #443
    Forum Member ToDaRoof's Avatar
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    Ahh... Kids. Just remember boy, I AM something that you WANT to be.

    If and when you decide to come back (which you will), come back with some thicker skin and better insults.

    PS: I got the highest score ever received on the written test.
    Either strive to excel at this job or quit. There is no middle ground.

    #wedontstop #expectfire

    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH-KTF

  4. #444
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Ahh... Kids. Just remember boy, I AM something that you WANT to be.
    Bing-freaking-o!!!

    Posted by Matty Bev (is that short for Matilda Beverly?)
    Haven't decided to take a job with a Fire Dept. yet. If I make it through, I'll decide. I can assure you though I won't be taking part in this site - forum. Thanks! You could've gone the other route and been encouraging or said something positive. So bye to you too!
    Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #445
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    Gee. I was trying to take the high road. You guys must have seen something I didn't!
    The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
    There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
    Captain Dave LeBlanc

  6. #446
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post

    Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out...
    I hope it hits him hard in his pompous, oh so superior, azz hole.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  7. #447
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    Oath when getting on the job was 2 things

    1. Protect life
    2. Protect property
    Jerry Stewart
    Firefighter Engine Company No. 44
    Licensed Paramedic State of Michigan
    Detroit1552fire@yahoo.com
    (313) 732 7377
    Detroit Fire Department Local 344

  8. #448
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroitfire1552 View Post
    Oath when getting on the job was 2 things

    1. Protect life
    2. Protect property
    Brother, ours too.

    But we are being infested with a bunch of safety Sallys' whom have bastardized EGH. Their motto is fairly similar, but on number 2 they insert an asterisk to indicate the following exceptions;

    1. Me, myself, or I will not get dirty, sweat, have to exert myself, stay in shape, train, get hurt, take time away from MY family, or make any sort of sacrifice that may include dying for my fellow fire fighters or the citizens we serve.
    2. Refer to exception number 1.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty_Bev View Post
    Hmm a lot of very edgy replies to this. I'm only applying to departments but I would never be so antagonizing to a question like this if I was a seasoned pro. Can't anyone just answer the guy's question using their own brain? I mean, you COULD just give the guy all the scenarios you encounter doing this job, eh? Instead of slamming him and his question for being vague (i.e. stupid). So he didn't include ALL the variables . . . can't ANY of you provide them? He asked a question. It's called an open-ended question. The answers should include information he didn't consider when asking the question. I always thought Firefighters were supposed to be very helpful people but, reading through a lot of these replies, I am encountering the same old macho, antagonistic, internet-tough-guy posturing as I find on any website - forum. Maybe I should go to law school like my ma wants. Very disappointed. And let the slamming me commence . . . Actually read through and found some answers that were very informative and helpful and the least aggressive and antagonistic. So that's good. But, there still is a lot of bickering and stupid name-calling. I've said what I've said and now I'm not coming back to this site. Why bother if you can't ask a simple question and get 100% help from people who are supposed to be 100% helpful. Cheers.
    You dig up a six month old dead horse to bestow this charming response on us? I'm sure your ma would like you to get any job so you could move out of her basement. Get a clue and lose the entitlement mentailty.

  10. #450
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    The key word in the poll question was "aggressive". To me that means a building, in this case a vacant building, with very heavy fire conditions and only a very "aggressive" interior attack is going to have a chance of putting it out. So that means lot's of crews inside. If that is my course of action as an IC, I am risking a lot to save what?

    Is this an abandoned building? A building no one wants? I'm not risking my people for something like that.
    Is it a vacant/unoccupied business? A business that is closed for the day and all employees have gone home. Some businesses are built cheap, easy to knockdown into the ground and be rebuilt. Why risk people for that?

    Size up is very important. Are conditions such that no unprotected human could survive them? The reality is there is no one to save. It's a body recovery operation and no one risks the lives of their people to recover a body. You don't do it on ice or river rescue, so don't do it at a building fire.

    I have 32 years on a career dept. and I am currently a District Chief. It's tough to make blanket statements and no two calls are ever the same. In the real world I will let my size up guide my actions. But the more red flags I note the more my strategy meter is going to move towards the defensive side of the scale.
    Last edited by Whammer79; 11-02-2013 at 10:37 AM.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    The key word in the poll question was "aggressive". To me that means a building, in this case a vacant building, with very heavy fire conditions and only a very "aggressive" interior attack is going to have a chance of putting it out. So that means lot's of crews inside. If that is my course of action as an IC, I am risking a lot to save what?

    Is this an abandoned building? A building no one wants? I'm not risking my people for something like that.
    Is it a vacant/unoccupied business? A business that is closed for the day and all employees have gone home. Some businesses are built cheap, easy to knockdown into the ground and be rebuilt. Why risk people for that?

    Size up is very important. Are conditions such that no unprotected human could survive them? The reality is there is no one to save. It's a body recovery operation and no one risks the lives of their people to recover a body. You don't do it on ice or river rescue, so don't do it at a building fire.

    I have 32 years on a career dept. and I am currently a District Chief. It's tough to make blanket statements and no two calls are ever the same. In the real world I will let my size up guide my actions. But the more red flags I note the more my strategy meter is going to move towards the defensive side of the scale.
    Whammer -most agree with you --- the problem I see, is a growing minority are greasing the slippery slope, and using safety as an excuse to do basically nothing.
    ?

  12. #452
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer79 View Post
    The key word in the poll question was "aggressive". To me that means a building, in this case a vacant building, with very heavy fire conditions and only a very "aggressive" interior attack is going to have a chance of putting it out. So that means lot's of crews inside. If that is my course of action as an IC, I am risking a lot to save what?

    Why does aggressive fire attack equate to heavy fire conditions? I don't think the 2 are automatically related at all. Sometimes a small fire aggressively attacked prevents the fire from becoming heavy fire conditions.

    Is this an abandoned building? A building no one wants? I'm not risking my people for something like that.

    Is it a vacant/unoccupied business? A business that is closed for the day and all employees have gone home. Some businesses are built cheap, easy to knockdown into the ground and be rebuilt. Why risk people for that?

    First of all, an "abandoned by the owner building" doesn't necessarily mean the building isn't occupied by squatters, kids partying, or drug abusers. Local conditions would dictate the odds of that occurring in your area.

    Secondly, a closed business doesn't necessarily mean all employees have gone home. It is VERY common in my area to have employees in doing stocking, cleaning, or maintenance after hours. You can't even count on cars in the lot to tell you whether the business is occupied or not.


    Size up is very important. Are conditions such that no unprotected human could survive them? The reality is there is no one to save. It's a body recovery operation and no one risks the lives of their people to recover a body. You don't do it on ice or river rescue, so don't do it at a building fire.

    NO ONE, let me repeat this for you, NO ONE is advocating running willy nilly into a heavily involved, or fully involved, structure in some super hero attempt at rescue. Whether the building is abandoned, unoccupied, vacant, or occupied, the fact doesn't change that we must make proper tactical decisions based on size-up of the situation.

    I have 32 years on a career dept. and I am currently a District Chief. It's tough to make blanket statements and no two calls are ever the same. In the real world I will let my size up guide my actions. But the more red flags I note the more my strategy meter is going to move towards the defensive side of the scale.

    I don't think anyone disagrees with that line of reasoning.
    I don't like blanket statements of always and never regarding structural firefighting. Every situation presents its owns clues on what action we should take. It is up to us to make the proper decisions.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #453
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    FyredUp,

    The problem is the poll question is not very complete, it's leave a great deal to the reader's imagination. That's why there are so many differing responses.
    In my mind his question produces an image of a large abandoned building with heavy fire. Only aggressive fire attack actions are going to have an impact upon it.
    His reference to how Detroit is treating these structures is another tip off to what he's asking.

    Your points are valid and trust me we are thinking the same way. There can be no one size fits all answer to the OP's original post, just too many variables and too many unanswered questions.

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