View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    College fire department.

    Myself and 2 other officers were conducting some rookie training early in the semester, so they were still non-interior. Saw the fire from the station in a nearby farmhouse. Notified the town department and they responded with a 15-minute ETA due to a very steep 1-mile grade up to the college. Some of the other members were responding but they would be a few minutes getting from the dorms.

    No interior backup without abandoning command for at least 5-10 minutes. 220 gallons of water on board the mini-pumper and no supply. 3 rooms going plus part of the hallway to get back to the room she was likely in, which was built in the center of the room with no exterior access. Sorry, but that was an easy call.
    You are pathetic. You keep moaning and ****ing about "the widows." Let me tell you something, if I came home after the situation you described without even trying, my wife would have cast me out into the street and branded me with your Pet Name- "Effing Coward."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    And you call yourself an "educator...." I thought one of the virtues of a good educator/instructor was to learn and study the ways of your colleagues? Or maybe you consider the rest of the US Fire Service as your Adversaries?

    None of my business??? But with your every post that chastises another organization, you seem to think that it's YOUR business????

    Therefore, next time you decide to insert your 2 cents (and then usually your own feet into your mouth within a short timeframe afterwards) into the "business of others" and how another organization does things, think about your very statement here and now, and then.....


    Wait for it...


    Wait......


    SHUT THE HOLE UNDER YOUR NOSE THE EFF UP!!!!!!!
    Funny but I do network with my colleagues and very few of the rural and small community volunteers I have talked to identify occupancy in abandoned buildings as an issue, and most of them, as a rule do not make entry under fire conditions unless they have a reason to believe the building is occupied.

    I didn't take names and ask for thier SOPs, but I have had those conversations in LA, TX and other states in the mid-south.

    And again, I never stated that "any organization" did anything. I stated an observation. Or maybe an opinion. But certainly didn't comment on how any organization operates. lMaybe you need to learn how to tell the difference.

    but the reality that MOST of the fire departments in this country do not have a with abandoned buildings being occupied and do not need to send members interior.

    If they can justify it, fine, but they are the ones that will have to live with the consequences.


    Please identify exactly where I stated how any organization does anything in the above statement.

    Oh wait for it .....

    Wait .....

    YOU CAN"T!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    College fire department.

    Myself and 2 other officers were conducting some rookie training early in the semester, so they were still non-interior. Saw the fire from the station in a nearby farmhouse. Notified the town department and they responded with a 15-minute ETA due to a very steep 1-mile grade up to the college. Some of the other members were responding but they would be a few minutes getting from the dorms.

    No interior backup without abandoning command for at least 5-10 minutes. 220 gallons of water on board the mini-pumper and no supply. 3 rooms going plus part of the hallway to get back to the room she was likely in, which was built in the center of the room with no exterior access. Sorry, but that was an easy call.
    So what you're saying is that you had 3 people on scene that could've made entry plus the "rookies", 220 gallons of water and the means to use it on the fire yet made absolutely no actual attempt to get to the victim?

    Sounds like impersonating firefighters to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Please identify exactly where I stated how any organization does anything in the above statement.

    Oh wait for it .....

    Wait .....

    YOU CAN"T!
    I didn't say you chastise any organization specifically about abandoned/vacant building operations. You have, however thrown multiple agencies (FDNY, Philadelphia and Boston are three that come to mind) for any of a number of particular operations or specific incidents. I'm not going to go back through 5 or more years of posts, but you cannot deny it as I am sure that Captain Gonzo, Snowball, Fyred or any of a number of veteran posters will back me up and confirm it.

    You can deny all you want. But you posted it, we read it and we remember it.

    Just like when you said that you would let a child trapped inside a car (that was on fire) to die in the flames. Wish you never said that one, don'tcha???
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So what you're saying is that you had 3 people on scene that could've made entry plus the "rookies", 220 gallons of water and the means to use it on the fire yet made absolutely no actual attempt to get to the victim?

    Sounds like impersonating firefighters to me.
    Sounds like being a chicken schit coward to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You are pathetic. You keep moaning and ****ing about "the widows." Let me tell you something, if I came home after the situation you described without even trying, my wife would have cast me out into the street and branded me with your Pet Name- "Effing Coward."
    Did we use all 220 gallons trying to knock down fire from the door? Sure did. But it was pretty obvious pretty early that it wasn't going to happen, so yes I told them no to attempt entry.

    As far as opinions that folks may have about me, I tend not to listen to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny but I do network with my colleagues and very few of the rural and small community volunteers I have talked to identify occupancy in abandoned buildings as an issue, and most of them, as a rule do not make entry under fire conditions unless they have a reason to believe the building is occupied.

    I didn't take names and ask for thier SOPs, but I have had those conversations in LA, TX and other states in the mid-south.

    And again, I never stated that "any organization" did anything. I stated an observation. Or maybe an opinion. But certainly didn't comment on how any organization operates. lMaybe you need to learn how to tell the difference.

    but the reality that MOST of the fire departments in this country do not have a with abandoned buildings being occupied and do not need to send members interior.

    If they can justify it, fine, but they are the ones that will have to live with the consequences.


    Please identify exactly where I stated how any organization does anything in the above statement.

    Oh wait for it .....

    Wait .....

    YOU CAN"T!
    You may not have made a statement referencing on any specific organization and how they do things in your conversation with FWDBuff, but you DID make the assertion a few days ago that there's a national trend towards operational changes regarding abandoned buildings. I asked you to name 10 departments in this trend and what their new approach was, but like usual you completely avoided that in your reply.

    Additionally, you made a statement of opinion that most departments don't have occupied abandoned buildings, so entry isn't necessary. FWDBuff simply asked you to name a single fire department with an SOP that is representative of your stated opinion and to share that SOP. Not sure why that was so confusing for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I didn't say you chastise any organization specifically about abandoned/vacant building operations. You have, however thrown multiple agencies (FDNY, Philadelphia and Boston are three that come to mind) for any of a number of particular operations or specific incidents. I'm not going to go back through 5 or more years of posts, but you cannot deny it as I am sure that Captain Gonzo, Snowball, Fyred or any of a number of veteran posters will back me up and confirm it.

    You can deny all you want. But you posted it, we read it and we remember it.

    Just like when you said that you would let a child trapped inside a car (that was on fire) to die in the flames. Wish you never said that one, don'tcha???
    When a fire truck hits a fire truck at a controlled intersection, and it's not a brake issue, somebody needs to be terminated.

    When a fire truck runs into a building at an intersection, and it's determined to be speed, and not mechanical, somebody needs to lose a job.

    Yes, I have little tolerance for speed and intersection accidents when the red lights and stop signs are being violated, and little tolerance for any organization that does not fire said operators and the officers sitting besides him that let's it happen.

    Just like if one of my members, career or volunteer ran a red light and hit a car. I would be calling for their heads.

    I have little tolerance for members that can't follow rules. I have little tolerance for members that take extreme risks, even to save lives (which often are not viable) and put the brothers at risk that now have to come and get them. And I have even less tolerance for officers and departments that allow this crap to go on.

    And that includes calling my own departments out to the Chiefs, officers and members, which yes, gets me in trouble and often prevents friendships, but honestly, I don't give a damn if it does.

    As far as my comment regarding the kid in the car, no, I have regrets. I would not have made an effort if I was in that situation, without PPE and likely without an extinguisher driving through a neighboring city without wage/benefit medical protection.

    Today, with salary/benefit protection as civil service, it may be a different situation, but honestly, I doubt it. Call me what you will, but yes, my family financial responsibilities does come first.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Sounds like being a chicken schit coward to me.
    .......... Yup.

    The two guys with "experience" with me had a training burn or two and maybe one fire, and no command experience. I had a couple of more working fires but not much more.

    Again, did what I did to protect my members as ranking officer with 2 years of experience primarily running fire alarms and smoke investigations. That's my primary job.

    And as I said, never have looked back on that decision.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-24-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Did we use all 220 gallons trying to knock down fire from the door? Sure did.
    WOW, I'm surprised you let them get that close to the building, they could've gotten a boo boo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    .......... Yup.

    The two guys with "experience" with me had a training burn or two and maybe one fire, and no command experience. I had a couple of more working fires but not much more.
    And you three guys were officers in that department?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    And you three guys were officers in that department?
    Student run college fire department.

    At the time, I was the Asst. Chief.

    We handled the fire alarms and smoke investigations on campus, as well as the very rare trash/dumpster or vehicle or brush fire. As a rule we would call the town department as well for any fire, but they had a mile long climb up a fairly steep grade to reach the college. Response time to the campus because of the grade was 15 minutes on dry roads, a little bit longer in the winter, so many times we would have the out or at least knocked down before they arrived.

    They would also call us to respond to off-campus calls as initial response outside of the campus on the hill due to their response time.

    We also ran mutual aid to several small towns.

    We also ran a student-run rescue squad which provided all EMS transport for 9 small towns over a 400-square mile response area.

    It was rural VT in the late 70's. At the time there were 4 college fire departments in VT. All are gone now except for one.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-24-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Student run college fire department.

    At the time, I was the Asst. Chief.

    We handled the fire alarms and smoke investigations on campus, as well as the very rare trash/dumpster or vehicle or brush fire. As a rule we would call the town department as well for any fire, but they had a mile long climb up a fairly steep grade to reach the college. Response time to the campus because of the grade was 15 minutes on dry roads, a little bit longer in the winter, so many times we would have the out or at least knocked down before they arrived.

    They would also call us to respond to off-campus calls as initial response outside of the campus on the hill due to their response time.

    We also ran mutual aid to several small towns.

    We also ran a student-run rescue squad which provided all EMS transport for 9 small towns over a 400-square mile response area.

    It was rural VT in the late 70's. At the time there were 4 college fire departments in VT. All are gone now except for one.
    Sounds more like a fire brigade than an actual fire department.

    15 minutes to travel 1 mile up a hill??? That's an average speed of 4 mph. Were they still using horses to pull the apparatus?
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    LA

    You are a hopeless blowhard. Every time you open your mouth you make yourself look more foolish. It’s people like you that are leading the charge in the pussification of the fire service. I’d rather drag my naked *** across a mile of broken glass than listen to you and your crap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Sounds more like a fire brigade than an actual fire department.

    15 minutes to travel 1 mile up a hill??? That's an average speed of 4 mph. Were they still using horses to pull the apparatus?
    I was wondering that myself - figured out la probable had a death grip on the emergency brake , and the little mini had to overcome it to pull the hill.
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    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    College fire department.

    Myself and 2 other officers were conducting some rookie training early in the semester, so they were still non-interior. Saw the fire from the station in a nearby farmhouse. Notified the town department and they responded with a 15-minute ETA due to a very steep 1-mile grade up to the college. Some of the other members were responding but they would be a few minutes getting from the dorms.

    No interior backup without abandoning command for at least 5-10 minutes. 220 gallons of water on board the mini-pumper and no supply. 3 rooms going plus part of the hallway to get back to the room she was likely in, which was built in the center of the room with no exterior access. Sorry, but that was an easy call.
    First of all, it sounds like a bunch of wannabes more than a fire department. Secondly, why no supply? Are you telling us this college campus had no fire hydrants? If not who was the genius who specified a mini-pumper with 220 gallons of water? That would be almost useless, even on a fully involved car fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When a fire truck hits a fire truck at a controlled intersection, and it's not a brake issue, somebody needs to be terminated.

    When a fire truck runs into a building at an intersection, and it's determined to be speed, and not mechanical, somebody needs to lose a job.

    Yes, I have little tolerance for speed and intersection accidents when the red lights and stop signs are being violated, and little tolerance for any organization that does not fire said operators and the officers sitting besides him that let's it happen.

    Just like if one of my members, career or volunteer ran a red light and hit a car. I would be calling for their heads.

    I have little tolerance for members that can't follow rules. I have little tolerance for members that take extreme risks, even to save lives (which often are not viable) and put the brothers at risk that now have to come and get them. And I have even less tolerance for officers and departments that allow this crap to go on.

    And that includes calling my own departments out to the Chiefs, officers and members, which yes, gets me in trouble and often prevents friendships, but honestly, I don't give a damn if it does.

    As far as my comment regarding the kid in the car, no, I have regrets. I would not have made an effort if I was in that situation, without PPE and likely without an extinguisher driving through a neighboring city without wage/benefit medical protection.

    Today, with salary/benefit protection as civil service, it may be a different situation, but honestly, I doubt it. Call me what you will, but yes, my family financial responsibilities does come first.
    So you are in it entirely for the paycheck and benefits...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When a fire truck hits a fire truck at a controlled intersection, and it's not a brake issue, somebody needs to be terminated.

    When a fire truck runs into a building at an intersection, and it's determined to be speed, and not mechanical, somebody needs to lose a job.

    Yes, I have little tolerance for speed and intersection accidents when the red lights and stop signs are being violated, and little tolerance for any organization that does not fire said operators and the officers sitting besides him that let's it happen.

    Just like if one of my members, career or volunteer ran a red light and hit a car. I would be calling for their heads.

    I have little tolerance for members that can't follow rules. I have little tolerance for members that take extreme risks, even to save lives (which often are not viable) and put the brothers at risk that now have to come and get them. And I have even less tolerance for officers and departments that allow this crap to go on.

    And that includes calling my own departments out to the Chiefs, officers and members, which yes, gets me in trouble and often prevents friendships, but honestly, I don't give a damn if it does.

    As far as my comment regarding the kid in the car, no, I have regrets. I would not have made an effort if I was in that situation, without PPE and likely without an extinguisher driving through a neighboring city without wage/benefit medical protection.

    Today, with salary/benefit protection as civil service, it may be a different situation, but honestly, I doubt it. Call me what you will, but yes, my family financial responsibilities does come first.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! OMG That didn't take long at all, what.....Maybe 2 hours?

    I quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    and honestly, how they operated really wouldn't be your business.
    And I repeat: NOR YOURS.
    Thanks for providing tonights cheap entertainment, there isn't **** on TV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Sounds more like a fire brigade than an actual fire department.

    15 minutes to travel 1 mile up a hill??? That's an average speed of 4 mph. Were they still using horses to pull the apparatus?
    That included response time to the station, which was about 5 miles from the college.

    As far as the horses ... Close...... The ladder truck was a 1932.

    They finally replaced it in 1987.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    First of all, it sounds like a bunch of wannabes more than a fire department. Secondly, why no supply? Are you telling us this college campus had no fire hydrants? If not who was the genius who specified a mini-pumper with 220 gallons of water? That would be almost useless, even on a fully involved car fire.

    First of all, the college supplied no money for operations and apparatus purchases, but did pick up the insurance, gas, housing, and oil changes and some light repairs that could be done by the college shop.

    The truck was a homemade unit with a 1971 surplus Dodge Power Wagon, utility body, front mount pump and donated equipment and a tank that was surplus from somewhere around the college. We also carried a portable pump for rural water supply ops to supplement the front mount. We had 500 or 600' of 2.5", a few hundred feet of 1.5", 4 Scott 2As and some miscellaneous tools so it was a pretty basic rig.

    The truck replaced a 1934 Buffalo which finally quit in 1977.

    We ran on less than $1500 per year.

    And yes, there were hydrants, but they were fairly widely spaced. I think the entire campus had 5 or 6 if I remember correctly. The one good thing was that the water supply sat about 500 vertical feet above us so we had great pressure. In fact the town was feed off the same system and they had about 160 psi at most of their hydrants.

    And yes, we were a group of college kids that did some firefighting and we did Ok, or at least that's what the locals told us.

    Unfortunately we closed up about 3 years after I left as Chief. Basically the college just decided that we were expendable and stopped all of the support, and the locals tried to help but they had little or no spare change.

    Goddard closed up a couple of years after that when the college closed and Norwich, which was a military school and ran a pretty tight department, closed up after they rolled a rig and killed 2 or 3 students. The driver was convicted of drunk driving
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-24-2013 at 11:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So you are in it entirely for the paycheck and benefits...
    Yeah, that's exactly what that post said.

    Which explains why I have volunteered for 34 years, currently volunteer for another department on my off time, teach 4-5 classes per month at other local departments for free, help teach at LSU drill nights for free, and go to outside training 3-5 hours per month on my own time.

    It's a good thing you cleared that up.

    By the way, I just got back from responding in, for free, to my career gig when they had multiple calls going on and drove the backup bus housed at our station for the parish EMS service into the hospital, again, fo' free. Ya, you're right. It's all about the money.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-24-2013 at 11:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    LA

    You are a hopeless blowhard. Every time you open your mouth you make yourself look more foolish. It’s people like you that are leading the charge in the pussification of the fire service. I’d rather drag my naked *** across a mile of broken glass than listen to you and your crap.
    If by pussification, you mean taking less chances without meaningful benefits, and lowering the injury and death rate, then I'm all in on that.

    My personnel, career or volunteer, are all going home after the shift or the fire, and all of my volunteers are showing up for work at their fulltime jobs the next day. All the time. As an officer, that is my primary job.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-24-2013 at 11:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what that post said.

    Which explains why I have volunteered for 34 years, currently volunteer for another department on my off time, teach 4-5 classes per month at other local departments for free, help teach at LSU drill nights for free, and go to outside training 3-5 hours per month on my own time.

    It's a good thing you cleared that up.

    By the way, I just got back from responding in, for free, to my career gig when they had multiple calls going on and drove the backup bus housed at our station for the parish EMS service into the hospital, again, fo' free. Ya, you're right. It's all about the money.
    You have repeatedly said YOUR job was done by you as a volly and that vollies could do it again...so yes, the paycheck matters to you.

    Further, the last paragraph of your post here proves nothing other than you don't care about breaking federal law and that you are a fool. Neither of which seem to phase you in the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    we closed up about 3 years after I left as Chief.
    Wonder why.......?????
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    If by pussification, you mean taking less chances without meaningful benefits, and lowering the injury and death rate, then I'm all in on that.
    No, the fact of the mater is in your mind, there is absolutely no benefit worth any of your risk.
    You are a poser, and the worst type of poser at that. You come on here pretending to be firefighter and an educator, spouting of your worthless opinion as learned fact. Yet you have yet to produce a single shred of evidence to back up any of your claim of what you perceive most fire departments are doing.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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