Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience

View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

Voters
36. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
+ Reply to Thread
Page 8 of 23 FirstFirst ... 56789101118 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 453
Like Tree136Likes

Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #141
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,264

    Default

    I spoke with a fire chief 40 years ago whose philosophy on barn fires was that they weren't worth it. Let 'em burn. In the end, it's actually easier for the farmer whether it's abandoned or in full use.

    I think the whole LA thing is a difference in perception of what an unsafe environment is. There are brand-new houses I won't send my people into, because they are less structurally sound than that old barn before they even catch fire. And just like that old barn, they're built to burn. And most old barns were built to burn, to the ground. After things cooled down, the farmer could simply build a new one on the old foundation.

    I'd bet that if folks posted pictures of fires they didn't think LA would enter they'd be all over the place with regard to involvement. And if he posted pictures of buildings he wouldn't enter, many would agree they shouldn't be entered. Of course, all those pictures would have to be posted anonymously, or the results would be very predictable...

    I would call a building that is currently in use but has no one in it unoccupied, not vacant. To me a vacant is a usable building with no current tenant. At some point a vacant may well become abandoned. Exactly when serious deterioration sets in may vary - it could be because the owner abandoned it, or it could be the reason the owner abandoned it (ie, some failure occurs despite the building being otherwise maintained.

    And that raises another concern - are there buildings in your district you wouldn't sent people into even if they weren't on fire? If so, why would you send someone in if it was?
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.


  2. #142
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,513

    Default

    I'm not so sure about the let it burn. The farm stead where I pheasant hunt, letting the barn go would cost the milking parlor, 2 grain silos, a corn crib, the corn dryer, and the machine shed...be a million dollar plus fire....
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  3. #143
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    How many FD's go out and look at the abandoned and known vacant structures in their response districts and use a building marking system?
    Ex-diddly-actly. Not nearly enough.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  4. #144
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,513

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Ex-diddly-actly. Not nearly enough.
    Unfortunately, in my first due, any overt markings of abandonment would be an invitation for all manner of squatter, drug abuser, flop house types, or scrapper. Instead we use an internal notification system and on-line premise file system linked to our CAD.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 03-27-2013 at 08:31 AM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  5. #145
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Detroit, MI, USA
    Posts
    154

    Default

    [QUOTE=MemphisE34a;1360997]As many have eluded, there is no such thing as a "known vacant building" except when the building is in fact occupied and the resident meets you in the yard and tells you that all of his family, workers, etc. are accounted for and out of the fire building.

    Even in this case, you don't know if someone is in the home. We stretched on the street I grew up on a few years back and everyone was out of the house. We ended up saving a woman and a baby from the back bedroom when we stumbled over the woman (which is usually how you find people). We dragged the woman out and the people on the lawn said something like " that my cousin, she here still??? her baby in there"
    Jerry Stewart
    Firefighter Engine Company No. 44
    Licensed Paramedic State of Michigan
    Detroit1552fire@yahoo.com
    (313) 732 7377
    Detroit Fire Department Local 344

  6. #146
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    ...We use the ones listed in 527 CMR 10.13 (7) fire prevention regulations. Buildings marked with a half slash / have limited interior operations due to known structural hazards Building marked with the X should have no interior operations whatsoever. The decision to make entry to do a perfunctory search rests with the incident commander...
    Gonzo, side question on your marking system (we don't use one as we don't have abandonded buildings) is the building marked by FD? And is that in your CAD system? Reason I ask, can a homeowner mark the building them self and that marking not be in your system but have an effect on your operations? or does the mark have to co-incide with the CAD information?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #147
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Gonzo, side question on your marking system (we don't use one as we don't have abandonded buildings) is the building marked by FD? And is that in your CAD system? Reason I ask, can a homeowner mark the building them self and that marking not be in your system but have an effect on your operations? or does the mark have to co-incide with the CAD information?

    Before we mark a building, we do an inspection with Code Enforcement and determine how the structure will be classified, either as limited interior ops or no interior ops. We then mark the building attaching the sign with 3 inch long 9/16ths hex head screws. Once a building is marked, it goes on the Microsoft Excel generated list that I send out via email to all FD members. I will be adding the pictures of the buildings with the reasons they are marked in a powerpoint presentation onto one of the shared computer drives so that can be reviewed by the Department members if they want to see the structure.

    The information is also placed in the CAD system. We only had one complex of buildings that were marked with the X by the property owner, with our permission, It was the former Hewlett Packard complex, the power and water supplies to the building were shut down. The new owners marked every entrance door to the complex with an X. That complex is now being renovated, the F/A and sprinklers are up and running for one of the buildings that is being taken over by a medical device company.

    Homeowners are not allowed to mark their own buildings.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #148
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,086

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bones.. the question as it is written (and misspelled) is quite vague. There is a difference between "vacant" and "abandoned".

    In theory, every time people send their kids off to school and leave for work, the structure becomes "vacant".

    A house on the real estate market that is unoccupied is "vacant"

    A boarded up, vandalized building is abandoned.

    Would you want your brothers in the PPBVFD to let your home burn because it was known that you were not home at the time of the fire? The way this question is worded, 11 of those voting would.
    And a boarded up vandalized building is an OCCUPIED building while it is being vandalized. That fire had to start somehow. Just sayin', for those would listen anyway.

  9. #149
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Before we mark a building, we do an inspection with Code Enforcement and determine how the structure will be classified, either as limited interior ops or no interior ops. We then mark the building attaching the sign with 3 inch long 9/16ths hex head screws. Once a building is marked, it goes on the Microsoft Excel generated list that I send out via email to all FD members. I will be adding the pictures of the buildings with the reasons they are marked in a powerpoint presentation onto one of the shared computer drives so that can be reviewed by the Department members if they want to see the structure.

    The information is also placed in the CAD system. We only had one complex of buildings that were marked with the X by the property owner, with our permission, It was the former Hewlett Packard complex, the power and water supplies to the building were shut down. The new owners marked every entrance door to the complex with an X. That complex is now being renovated, the F/A and sprinklers are up and running for one of the buildings that is being taken over by a medical device company.

    Homeowners are not allowed to mark their own buildings.
    So what do you do if you show up on scene and somebody tells you that somebody lives in there?

    Somebody lives in there now and then?

    Or somebody says thet they saw somebody going in there a few times over the past couple of months?

    Are those reports enough for you to disregard the hazards that caused you to mark the building with an "X" or even a "/"?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #150
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do you do if you show up on scene and somebody tells you that somebody lives in there?

    Somebody lives in there now and then?

    Or somebody says thet they saw somebody going in there a few times over the past couple of months?

    Are those reports enough for you to disregard the hazards that caused you to mark the building with an "X" or even a "/"?
    Well. one thing is for sure.. we certainly know what YOU would do in the situation...
    FyredUp and RFDACM02 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  11. #151
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do you do if you show up on scene and somebody tells you that somebody lives in there?

    Somebody lives in there now and then?

    Or somebody says thet they saw somebody going in there a few times over the past couple of months?

    Are those reports enough for you to disregard the hazards that caused you to mark the building with an "X" or even a "/"?
    We're going to do our job. Period.

    If...we are able to get in and search, we will. We won't make excuses. We won't apologize. We won't say we can't, unless conditions are untenable; unlike you. We, unlike you, will do the humane thing. We will attempt to try and remove any trapped occupants; unlike you, who has repeatedly stated a child burning alive is not your concern.

  12. #152
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do you do if you show up on scene and somebody tells you that somebody lives in there?

    Somebody lives in there now and then?

    Or somebody says thet they saw somebody going in there a few times over the past couple of months?

    Are those reports enough for you to disregard the hazards that caused you to mark the building with an "X" or even a "/"?
    Why do you care? You don't want anyone to care, or comment, on what your 2 FDs won't do so why do you constantly feel you have the right to judge anyone else? If you don't want people commenting on your lack of action then kindly shut the hell up about what others will do.

    Even though we know you won't stop because your pathological need for attention, whether positive or negative, won't allow you to stop...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #153
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I'm not so sure about the let it burn. The farm stead where I pheasant hunt, letting the barn go would cost the milking parlor, 2 grain silos, a corn crib, the corn dryer, and the machine shed...be a million dollar plus fire....
    At the time there were very few working dairy farms in the area, so the extra loss would not be a major factor. They have even less farming there now - most if the area is tract homes.

    I suspect that they'd make an effort to save the milk parlor - I know we would. We're a little gun shy on silos around here right now, another department having lost an assistant chief to a silo explosion a couple of years ago...

    Some years ago a neighboring department lost a barn. I had our tanker and didn't see a header on the way in because there really wasn't one - the fire was in the hay mow. Deep in the hay mow. It was impossible to get to the seat of the fire without tearing the barn apart, which they did.

    Barns are usually a case of delayed discovery and a vertical lumberyard. If you've got a 60x100 barn going good, there's not much you're going to do to save it.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  14. #154
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Homeowners are not allowed to mark their own buildings.
    Cool. Was thinking that could lead to some interesting situations if people were allowed to mark on their own. Imagine an arsonist at work.....


    LaFireEd....if conditions allow it, a search can be done while being fully aware of the hazardous conditions.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #155
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Well. one thing is for sure.. we certainly know what YOU would do in the situation...
    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #156
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,513

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?
    That's as obtuse as the OP's original question. You will never get it. For some reason, you are to stupid, naive, or ignorant to grasp the effect of the variables presenting that go into a risk assessment.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  17. #157
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?
    If our assessment of conditions says it's safe to do so, yes.

    Same as every flippin' fire we go to.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  18. #158
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Wouldn't make sense in my area, but if it does it yours, have at it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-28-2013 at 09:12 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #159
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?

    Um, DUH? AS WE ALL HAVE SAID FROM THE BEGINNING, IF CONDITIONS ALLOW, MEANING CONDITION OF THE STRUCTURE, AND EXTENT OF THE FIRE, A SEARCH WILL BE CONDUCTED. FURTHER IF A REPORT OF OCCUPANTS IS MADE THEN FOR SURE, IF CONDITIONS ALLOW, A SEARCH WILL BE MADE.

    You see when you place value on human life, other than your own, that is what you do. Since that one tiny little thing seems beyond your scope of reason you will never understand this.



    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Wouldn't make sense in my area, but if it does it yours, have at it.
    ONCE AGAIN, AS OTHERS HAVE SAID, YOUR LITTLE 1/4 INCH CHUNK OF THE UNIVERSE, AND YOUR PERCEPTIONS ABOUT IT, ARE IRRELEVANT TO A MUCH LARGER PORTION OF THE UNIVERSE WHERE SQUATTERS AND KIDS DO ENTER THESE BUILDINGS. No one here gives a damn if you allow the entire Bossier Parrish to burn down if you believe that is perceived as sound fire tactics for YOUR department. The issue comes in when you use your pink paintbrush to try and broadstroke every where in the country with it. Do what you do and stop judging what others do that has no consequence to you and your 2 fire departments.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #160
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?
    Do you try to act stupid, or does it just come naturally to you?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. interior attack
    By whitefishfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 07-28-2009, 01:55 PM
  2. Is the risk worth the reward??
    By Rivwarrior in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-30-2005, 05:59 AM
  3. first interior attack
    By smfd232 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-29-2002, 02:43 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-13-2002, 01:09 PM
  5. interior attack communications
    By mtperry in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-02-2002, 03:25 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts