View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bobby... you have forgotten something... here is a reminder.
    And where did I say I would do nothing?

    An exterior search through the windows. Protecting exposures. Maybe extinguishing the fire from the exterior.

    But entering that abandoned building and putting my crew at risk for a property that the owner has abandoned. Nope.

    Sorry, but there are times when it's perfectly acceptable to do nothing. A water rescue situation with no water rescue training or gear. A confined space rescue with no confined space traiaining or gear. A structural collapse with no NC training or gear.

    And yes, a fire in an abandoned building with unkbown structural stability and likely no life threat.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Every thread that LA gets involved with ends up being pages and pages of the same people (me included) telling him how wrong he is again, and again, and again.

    At this point, it makes me wonder who the bigger dummy is - him or us.
    Maybe, but I for one will NEVER let him pollute the young minds on here looking to learn with his cowardice. My mission statement includes "lives and property". I will do that in an educated, experienced, and calculated manner. No where in the fire service is there room for the blatant holier-than-thou attitude preached by that poser from Bosier Parish.
    This job is dangerous, we get hurt, we get killed. We can prevent that in 2 ways: we educate ourselves on the dangers, gain the experience needed by doing the job, and never quit learning; or we just give up, adopt the attitude the citizens that are affected deserve it, and if they can't get out on their own, at no risk to us, they deserve to die. Well I for one am not willing to accept that level of pussification in the fire service. Period. That includes calling out this clown at every turn.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    MemphisE34a: Every thread that LA gets involved with ends up being pages and pages of the same people (me included) telling him how wrong he is again, and again, and again.

    At this point, it makes me wonder who the bigger dummy is - him or us.
    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Said Einstein:

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    So what's the answer them boys? Surrender? Let him polute the younger members of the forum here ith his absolute GARBAGE and attempts at the destruction of the proud traditions of the fire service?

    Sorry NO! You can say I am as bad as him for fighting him...But I will not let him go unanswered, unquestioned, and unexposed for his BS.
    slackjawedyokel likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
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  4. #204
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    Let's break this statement down:
    And yes, a fire in an abandoned building
    How do you know is abandoned? What do you have for a reporting system? Do you regularly inspect buildings?
    with unknown structural stability
    Unknown structural stability, how is that known? Do you spot check buildings? Is there a way for your inspections division to access properties and report conditions? Utility status? Ownership? You have a system in place that allows for prompt and accurate dissemination of building information?
    and likely no life threat.
    How is this known? Is it just an assumption? You have members that are clairvoyant?
    If you can't answer with certainty the first 2 points of your statement, you surely can't answer the 3rd and most important point.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 04-01-2013 at 04:32 PM.
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    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Said Einstein:

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    This would only apply here if the desired results were to get LA to change his beliefs and opinions as they relate to firefighting. However, for at least some of us on here, the desired result is not getting him to change, but rather preventing his message from infecting the minds of others involved in the fire service, particularly the newbies.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.

  6. #206
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    A Bell Should Go Off

    By Ray McCormack

    When firefighters don't know where change is coming from, a bell should go off.
    ...
    When firefighters are told what to do by those who have never worn the boots, a bell should go off.

    When firefighters are told to change by people who no longer fight fires, a bell should go off.

    When firefighters recite slogans they don't understand, a bell should go off.

    When firefighters are told that their culture is bad, a bell should go off.

    When firefighters are taught by those who have never done it, a bell should go off.

    Excuse we while I answer some bells.

    Keep Fire in Your Life
    To quote Stan Lee from Marvel Comics...
    E'nuff said!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where did I say I would do nothing?

    You didn't say you would do nothing. You said you would stop others from attempting to say lives...

    An exterior search through the windows. Protecting exposures. Maybe extinguishing the fire from the exterior.

    Should be really effective if the victim was attempting to escape and passed out in an interior hallway. One AGAIN, if building stability, and fire conditions ALLOW, there is no reason not to atleast do a quick peak on the interior for victims.

    But then again, since you have been told repeatedly that no one gives a damn what you do in Bossier Parrish or your little volly FD YOU are the one keeping this alive. Do whatever you wish and shut the hell up about what the rest of the fire service does. It has no effect on you.



    But entering that abandoned building and putting my crew at risk for a property that the owner has abandoned. Nope.

    Again, I couldn't begin to pretend to care less what YOU and YOUR FDs do in Bossier Parrish Louisiana.

    Sorry, but there are times when it's perfectly acceptable to do nothing. A water rescue situation with no water rescue training or gear. A confined space rescue with no confined space traiaining or gear. A structural collapse with no NC training or gear.

    And if you always look for justification for doing nothing, eventually doing nothing becomes more normal for YOU, than actually doing anything.

    Frankly, your scenarios are idiotic and show a clear trend of not preparing for possible incidents in your territory. Sometimes preperation doesn't mean doing specialized rescues yourself but knowing who to call. My #1 POC FD doesn't do confined space, haz-mat, past ops, or high angle rescue, but guess what? We know which ones of our mutual aid neighbors that do. We secure the area, we may do whatever prep work we are trained to do in preperation of the arrival of the specialty team.


    And yes, a fire in an abandoned building with unkbown structural stability and likely no life threat.

    AND as has been stated a ton of times do what ever YOU want, and YOUR FD allows. That has no effect on any other FD, or what those FDs do has any effect on you.
    Get past your need for attention...it is getting old, tiresome, and boring.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Get past your need for attention...it is getting old, tiresome, and boring.
    Hmmm...
    Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. This condition affects one percent of the population. First formulated in 1968, it was historically called megalomania, and is severe egocentrism.

    Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]
    Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
    Taking advantage of others to reach own goals
    Exaggerating own importance, achievements, and talents
    Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
    Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
    Becoming jealous easily
    Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
    Being obsessed with self
    Pursuing mainly selfish goals
    Trouble keeping healthy relationships
    Becoming easily hurt and rejected
    Setting goals that are unrealistic
    Wanting "the best" of everything
    Appearing unemotional
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where did I say I would do nothing?


    Sorry, but there are times when it's perfectly acceptable to do nothing.
    That was too easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    An exterior search through the windows.
    You cannot be in the fire service.
    IAFF

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    I for one refuse to allow him to pollute the minds of the younger guys on here for two reasons:

    1. His pollution is nothing but bullschit

    2. His bullschit is nothing more than his attempt at disguising his cowardice.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    What is an exterior search? Is that a search for the electric and gas meters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What is an exterior search? Is that a search for the electric and gas meters?
    You run around and around and if you see someone hanging out the window -you squeal in a high pitched voice -jump jump
    ?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So what's the answer them boys? Surrender? Let him polute the younger members of the forum here ith his absolute GARBAGE and attempts at the destruction of the proud traditions of the fire service?

    Sorry NO! You can say I am as bad as him for fighting him...But I will not let him go unanswered, unquestioned, and unexposed for his BS.
    I've suggested derailing his threads and posts in the past. It just took a more respected member of these boards to really get a movement started. That guy is you. I don't think there are too many bro's hatin' on what you are doing.

    Like I said, I've learned a few things about people and you and the others, who know who they are, are welcome at my house anytime.

    Btw, now would be a great time to sack up and come do a 48 with us. They just had an officer involved shooting with a gang banger and the "Bulldogs, Bloods, and the others have declared war on P.D. Good times...
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    You not offering any sort of "the other side of the argument". You are on here, trying to justify in-action, cowardice, and the pussification of the fire service. The fact you are so far out of touch with how the rest of the fire service operates is mind boggling. How a department keeps you employed is criminal.
    Hey!!! That's my line, but you ued it excellently!
    SPFDRum likes this.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I've suggested derailing his threads and posts in the past. It just took a more respected member of these boards to really get a movement started. That guy is you. I don't think there are too many bro's hatin' on what you are doing.

    Like I said, I've learned a few things about people and you and the others, who know who they are, are welcome at my house anytime.

    Btw, now would be a great time to sack up and come do a 48 with us. They just had an officer involved shooting with a gang banger and the "Bulldogs, Bloods, and the others have declared war on P.D. Good times...
    Brother Snowball... keep your head down, stay low and let it blow.
    snowball likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Maybe, but I for one will NEVER let him pollute the young minds on here looking to learn with his cowardice. My mission statement includes "lives and property". I will do that in an educated, experienced, and calculated manner. No where in the fire service is there room for the blatant holier-than-thou attitude preached by that poser from Bosier Parish.
    This job is dangerous, we get hurt, we get killed. We can prevent that in 2 ways: we educate ourselves on the dangers, gain the experience needed by doing the job, and never quit learning; or we just give up, adopt the attitude the citizens that are affected deserve it, and if they can't get out on their own, at no risk to us, they deserve to die. Well I for one am not willing to accept that level of pussification in the fire service. Period. That includes calling out this clown at every turn.
    My line again!!! Once again used in amazing fashion.

    Excellent points lads. Ones I had not considered an quite frankly, I immediately agreed with your asessments on the situation.
    SPFDRum likes this.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I for one refuse to allow him to pollute the minds of the younger guys on here for two reasons:
    While I see your (and most others) point.. the law of diminishing returns probably applies here.
    If one of the younger guys reading this thread makes it past the first two pages of "LA vs Word" and still says "You know, LA may have a point".. then another 7 pages of the same thing won't help.
    So you call this your free country
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    What is an exterior search? Is that a search for the electric and gas meters?
    In LA's case, it's probably conducted to determine where the ladies auxiliary parked the canteen truck.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    In LA's case, it's probably conducted to determine where the ladies auxiliary parked the canteen truck.
    Refreshsments are always important.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Refreshsments are always important.
    Yardbreathing takes a toll on one's body....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Yardbreathing takes a toll on one's body....
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    We wouldn't expect anything more or less from you...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    Standing out in that hot sun.

    Yup, you guys have nailed it...... Yardbreather. Coward.

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. You're right. It's dangerous. And the idea that we should minimize injuries but mimizing the exposure to risjk, even when that risk is for no meaningful gain is just cowards talking.

    Maybe someday I can be like all of you.

    Until then I'll just get some cold beverages from the ladies auxilary and stand out in the yard.
    We wouldn't expect anything more or less from you...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Real fireman go into fires all the time, even where there is absolutly no meangingful gain to be had. .
    Did anybody say that? Did someone advocate reckless entry into an untenable structure? Was there an explicit statement made that we always go in, regardless of conditions? Are we all ready to be roasty-toasty marshmallows in a building that looks like the backdrop of an episode of "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?"

    No.

    (By the way, that sounds better if you read it as Ross Perot.)
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Did anybody say that? Did someone advocate reckless entry into an untenable structure? Was there an explicit statement made that we always go in, regardless of conditions? Are we all ready to be roasty-toasty marshmallows in a building that looks like the backdrop of an episode of "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?"

    No.



    (By the way, that sounds better if you read it as Ross Perot.)

    Sorry, but that is exactly what you ARE saying when you encourage entry into abandoned buildins with unknown structural hazards and stability in areas with no history of occupancy and no reliable information indicating occupancy.


    I consider an abondoned structure too be too hazardous to make enrty due to the unknown structural conditions and unknown stability, even without fire conditions. To me, that does make the building, if you wish to define it as untenable fine, too hazardous, even with limited fire, for interior operations without that KNOWN life risk.

    There is no meaningful gain in operating interior in those situations yet there is significant risk. Far too much risk for my volunteer crew, whose family is expecting him/her to be healthy enough to go to work the next day and earn a paycheck.

    That is the situation in my career and volunteer departments in LA. That was the situation in my volunteer departments in NY and VT. And I standby my statements that in most fire departments in this country, that is also the situation.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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