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View Poll Results: Is it worth agressive interior attack on known vacant buildings?

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  • Yes, it is worth the risk

    20 55.56%
  • No, it is not worth the risk

    16 44.44%
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Thread: Risk/Reward Interior attack vacant buildings presentation

  1. #161
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So then any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?
    Been a little busy with confined space training and working at the Academy to answer Bobby's inquiry.

    Let me explain it... some of you will get it, others... not so much.

    Our marked buildings... if a fire is in the incipient stage or room and contents, it is up to the incident commander to make the decision. Our info is in the CAD system, so the hazards of the structure are made known to all responding companies. We also check the marked occupancies periodically to check on them.

    Buildings without power or heat do not spontaneously combust, and the last time i looked at the wonderful world of flora and fauna, rats, roaches and other critters other than man, chimps, moneys and apes do not have opposable thumbs, therefore cannot strike a match or hold a lighter. Perhaps a crow picked up a lit cigarette but and brought it back to its nest... those birds that smoke can ruin your whole day...

    By the time a fire in an abandoned structure is discovered, reported, the companies dispatched, getting on the road and arriving on scene, the possibility of the structure being fully involved increases dramatically.

    Bobby seems to think that anyone who goes into any burning building, even the typical room and contents bread and butter fire has a psychotic death wish.

    As far as his "any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?" comment, we have to realize that Bobby does not have the same values as we do when it comes to protecting life and property.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 03-29-2013 at 12:00 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY


  2. #162
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    I like how you quoted his question and left on teh in question midtakse. Haha
    IAFF

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Been a little busy with confined space training and working at the Academy to answer Bobby's inquiry.

    Let me explain it... some of you will get it, others... not so much.

    Our marked buildings... if a fire is in the incipient stage or room and contents, it is up to the incident commander to make the decision. Our info is in the CAD system, so the hazards of the structure are made known to all responding companies. We also check the marked occupancies periodically to check on them.

    Buildings without power or heat do not spontaneously combust, and the last time i looked at the wonderful world of flora and fauna, rats, roaches and other critters other than man, chimps, moneys and apes do not have opposable thumbs, therefore cannot strike a match or hold a lighter. Perhaps a crow picked up a lit cigarette but and brought it back to its nest... those birds that smoke can ruin your whole day...

    By the time a fire in an abandoned structure is discovered, reported, the companies dispatched, getting on the road and arriving on scene, the possibility of the structure being fully involved increases dramatically.

    Bobby seems to think that anyone who goes into any burning building, even the typical room and contents bread and butter fire has a psychotic death wish.

    As far as his "any kind of report of an kind of occupancy, no matter how vague or generalized, will get you inside?" comment, we have to realize that Bobby does not have the same values as we do when it comes to protecting life and property.
    So basically you go through all the effort involved with inspecting these buildings, marking them, and documenting them in the computer as structurally deficiency, and then some guy of the street can tell you "I think I may have seen somebody coming out of there a couple of days ago", so now you make entry?

    I guess if it works for you, have at it, but to me something like that will never be a report reliable enough to commit members into a building with known structural issues.

    Simply too much risk on the shoulders of my members for too little benefit on far too little reliable information.

    And I will ask you a very simple question, which is the same one I have asked Fryred, as well as the other pro-go in abandoned buildings posters and have yet to get a concrete answer..... How many folks have you found in abandoned building fires in your career and roughly what percentage of abandoned building fires does that represent?

    As far as your comment about room and contents fires, you know that's not the case. Yes, I have stated that there are very clear differences in terms of where the go/no go line exists between my combo and volunteer departments on interior operations, based on the differences in resources, training and experience, but you know damn well that I never stated I would not make entry in either department on a room and contents fire. But hey, let's not have the facts get in the way.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #164
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So basically you go through all the effort involved with inspecting these buildings, marking them, and documenting them in the computer as structurally deficiency, and then some guy of the street can tell you "I think I may have seen somebody coming out of there a couple of days ago", so now you make entry?

    I guess if it works for you, have at it, but to me something like that will never be a report reliable enough to commit members into a building with known structural issues.

    Simply too much risk on the shoulders of my members for too little benefit on far too little reliable information.

    And I will ask you a very simple question, which is the same one I have asked Fryred, as well as the other pro-go in abandoned buildings posters and have yet to get a concrete answer..... How many folks have you found in abandoned building fires in your career and roughly what percentage of abandoned building fires does that represent?

    As far as your comment about room and contents fires, you know that's not the case. Yes, I have stated that there are very clear differences in terms of where the go/no go line exists between my combo and volunteer departments on interior operations, based on the differences in resources, training and experience, but you know damn well that I never stated I would not make entry in either department on a room and contents fire. But hey, let's not have the facts get in the way.
    Do you even read what others post, or do you suffer from constipation of rational thought then let diarrhea flow from your fingers onto your keyboard?

    As far as asking for "concrete answers".... here are the reasons to do a quick search if conditions allow... from Backstepfirefighter.com's "why we search" tab 2010 to 2012


    Chicago, IL – December 2010
    Firefighters rescued two squatters from a vacant West Side building.

    New Orleans, LA – December 2010
    Eight dead, two injured in abandoned warehouse fire.

    Philadelphia, PA – December 2010
    Elderly man found dead inside burned warehouse.

    Chicago, IL – December 2010
    Owner of building in LODD fire may face criminal charges. Video report.

    Altoona, PA – December 2010
    Training and preplanning with vacant buildings.

    Bend, OR – December 2010
    “- there was extensive evidence that transients had been living in the vacant home.”

    Freson, CA – December 2010
    Squatter starts fire.

    Dallas, TX – November 2010
    Police hear calls from help within vacant building on fire. Homeless man rescued.

    Hartford, CT – October 2010
    “When firefighters arrived, there was heavy smoke and a small fire in the building, fire officials said. There also were signs that people had been living in the building.”

    Prague, Czech Republic – October 2010
    Two rescued, nine dead, from fire in abandoned building in Prague. Video.

    Houston, TX – October 2010
    Vacant homes catch fire in Houston; “Wells, who captured the flames on her cell phone camera, knows the property inside and out, especially those who she says would often frequent it.”

    Syracuse, NY – Oct 2010
    “”During our initial attack we found mattresses, couches and that would support that there could be people staying there illegally or squatting,” said Deputy Fire Chief

    Atlanta, GA Two men arrested in connection with abandoned building fire.

    Detroit, MI Body found inside vacant house fire.

    San Francisco, CA Court warrant helps get abandoned home torn down.

    Queens, NY Shot man found at abandoned house fire.

    Flint, MI Review of vacant building fires in the city.

    Omaha, NE Body found in abandoned building fire.

    Greenville, NC City tres to deal with problem of squatters.

    Modesto, CA Squatters arrested for child endangerment.

    Las Vegas, NV Squatters blamed for vacant house fire.

    Buffalo, NY Preplans help firefighters at vacant building fire.

    Atlanta, GA Homeless man rescued from abandoned house fire.

    Exeter, NH Body found in vacant buildng fire.

    - – -

    Chicago, IL City tears down 300th abandoned building.

    Merced, CA Homeless man charged with starting vacant building fire.

    Lancaster, PA Squatters suspected in cause of abandoned building fire.

    Yakima, WA Second victim in abandoned house fire dies.

    Princeton, NJ University "gives away" school-owned vacant homes for demolition.

    Birmingham, AL Three bodies found inside vacant house fire.

    Knoxville, TN Body found after fire in boarded up convenience store.

    Dayton, OH Man burned by fire in vacant house.

    Washington, PA Squatters suspected in starting abandoned house fire.

    Brownsville, TX Teen girl charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Southeast, NY Teens charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Los Banos, CA Homeless man and woman arrested; fire set in vacant house during fight.

    Wilmington, DE Body found after fire in vacant house.

    Rochester, NY Officials identify vacant, dangerous buildings.

    Staten Island, NY Firefighters injured in vacant/occupied house fire.

    Indianapolis, IN Vacant home ordered demolished after fire.

    Kansas City, MO Man injured in vacant house fire.

    Weatherford, TX Homeless man believed to be behind cause of vacant building fire.

    Cedar Rapids, IA Fire department takes news strategy towards vacant house fires.

    - – -

    Columbia, SC One person treated after abandoned house fire.

    Upper Marlboro, MD Body found in abandoned house fire.

    South Sacramento, CA Neighbors turn in squatter after house fire.

    Detroit, MI Body found in vacant house fire.

    Staunton, VA Vacant home allowed to burn.

    Oahu, HI Squatters injured in abandoned house fire.

    Shrewsbury, MA Abandoned restaurant deemed unsafe.

    Jeannette, PA Police, firefighters search for teens in abandoned hospital.

    Detroit, MI Long-standing vacant housing project slated for demolition.

    Battle Ground, WA Teens start mattress fire in abandoned nursing home.

    Hyannis, MA Teens sleeping in woods seek shelter; start fire in baseball broadcast booth.

    Colorado Springs, CO Man rescued from basement of church during 0400 hrs fire.

    Omaha, NE Body inside abandoned house fire identified as known homeless man.

    Omaha, NE Body found inside abandoned house fire rubble.

    Berwick, PA Vacant house fires worry neighbors.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned house burn.

    Southbank, AU Squatters, pregnant teen pulled from abandoned building fire.

    Detroit, MI Angels' Night fires hit 17-year low.

    - – -

    Quincy, IL City fire department begins marking vacant buildings.

    Connellsville, PA Health officer drafts vacant building policy.

    Atlanta, GA Teens seen running from eyesore building shortly before fire.

    Peoria, IL Roof collapses on building known for homeless people.

    Glouchester City, NJ Homeless man admits to starting three-alarm fire.

    Denver, CO Five dead in after hours fire at bar.

    Pottsville, PA New law targets dwelling upkeep, appearance.

    Colorado Springs, CO Abandoned building fire started by transients.

    Richmond, CA Fire likely caused by squatters.

    Dayton, OH Residents fear vacant house fires.

    Silver City, NM Officials consider vacant building registry.

    Canton OH Vacant house fires worry citizens.

    - – -

    Redding, CA Burned home known as common hangout for transients.

    Eubank, KY Vacant structure fires worry town residents.

    Canton, OH Vagrants jump from second floor during house fire.

    Augusta, GA Code violations at large, vacant mall.

    Ypsilanti, MI Abandoned home slated for demolition after inspection.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned home burn.

    Mansfield, OH Captain calls for demolishing vacant buildings.

    Canton, OH Vacant home finally torn down after fourth fire.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters burned in abandoned house fire.

    San Angelo, TX Signs of squatters found in abandoned building fire.

    Beaver Dam, WI Vacant building ordinance stalls.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters suspected in causing abandoned house fire.

    Fort Worth, TX Firefighters inisde during roof collapse at vacant building fire.

    Balto. Cnty, MD Historic designation keeps vacant building standing, burning.

    Slinger, WI Toxic chemicals found stored inside abandoned building.

    Manchester, NH City debates razing buildings damages by fire.

    Memphis, TN Five vacant houses set on fire.

    Frankfort, IL Cadets train with abandoned building.

    Laguna Heights, TX Family homeless after abandoned house fire.

    Pickering, ONT Owner pleads guilty to abandoned farmhouse, dungeon.

    Portland, OR Five-alarm vacant hotel fire, propert used as storage site.

    Memphis, TN Abandoned building fire causes citizens to speak up about neighborhood blight.

    - – -

    Bristol Township, PA Officials target vacant houses.

    Logansport, IN Authorities work to seal abandoned houses.

    Camden, NJ Program launched to identify dangerous abandoned buildings.

    Lakeland, FL Squatters take over home, scene of earlier arson, murder attempt.

    Seattle, WA Vacant homes seen as magnets for transients.

    Vallejo, CA Squatters linked to recent vacant building fires.

    Natrona County, WY Vacant buildings near school tempting for students.

    Indianapolis, IN Arson on the rise, many in vacant buildings.

    - – -

    Kannapolis, NC City votes to demolish vacant buildings.

    Concord, CA, Squatter admits to setting fire after arguing with other squatters.

    Nyack, NY City proposes marking dangerous buildings.

    - – -

    Mobile, AL Homeless people suspected in cause of vacant house fire.

    Detroit, MI Firefighters injured at vacant school fire, building on list for demolition.

    Lorain, OH City struggles with vacant house fires.

    Binghamton, NY Children set fire to vacant home while in basement.

    Philadelphia, PA Abandoned home collapses after years of warnings.

    Birmingham, AL Police officer charged in vacant house fire spree.

    - – -

    Schenectady, NY Foreclosure raid follows series of vacant house fires.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors upset about vacant, burnt home.

    Birmingham, AL City to demolish over 200 vacant homes after string of arson.

    St. Petersburg, FL Homeless woman dies from injuries after being resuced from vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Vacant home known to be occupied by homeless people burns.

    Salt Lake City, UT Transient arrested for vacant house fire.

    Prichard, AL Rash of vacant building fires likely started by homeless people.

    Detroit, MI Risk vs aggressiveness in decision to let vacant buildings burn.

    New Orleans, LA Vacant firehouses up for auction.

    Buffalo, NY Demolitons leave many wondering if vacant homes could have been saved.

    Detroit, MI Citizens and business owners sue neglected property owners.

    Chicago, IL Demo bid process for vacant homes becomes competitive.

    District of Columbia Neglected home of local activists placed on abandoned property list despite owners living inside.

    Walnut Hill, FL Dispute breaks ut at fire over who own vacant house.

    El Paso, TX Property owners react to vacant building ordinance.

    Detroit, MI Eyesore finally torn down.

    Bronx, NY – Building Department officials leave vacant building unsecured.

    Philadelphia, PA Organizations try to deal with abandoned buildings.

    Kansas City, MO Abandoned homes become nuisance for neighbors.

    -

    South Salt Lake, UT People found living in storage units.

    Omaha, NE Smoke is full; vacant home lights up after ventilation.

    Chillicothe, MO City plans demolition of vacant homes.

    Independence, MO Abandoned school burs; neighbors report teens inside many times.

    Detroit, MI Fire Commissioner propses letting vacant buildings burn if over 50% involved, to save budget.

    Seattle, WA Neighbors happy vacant home burns.

    Highland Park, MI Vacant homes in series of fires known as haven for squatters.

    Lewiston, ME Fire department takes cautious approach to dangerous buildings.

    Philadelphia, PA City looks at who owns vacant properties after death of two firefighters.

    Toledo, OH Citizens criticize city's tracking of abandoned properties.

    Galveston, TX Man jumps from abandoned house fire.

    Boston, MA City task force created after Worcester Cold Storage fire finds over 200 "fire traps".

    Huntington, WV Town questions why so many vacant homes?

    San Francisco, CA "Occupy" protestors take over vacant church building.

    Rancho Cordova, CA Firefighters pull two from inside vacant motel fire.

    -

    Irvington, NJ Squatter cause two alarm house fire.

    Detroit, MI One person dead in fire at vacant commercial building.

    Newark, NJ Vacant home owned by mayor catches fire.

    Chicago, IL Neighborhood activists say city didn't do enough to secure vacant house.

    Kansas City, MO Worker finds body while cleaning up after vacant house fire.

    Dayton, OH Homeless man accused of setting fire in vacant home.

    Holyoke, MA Mill fire raises problem of vacant buildings in Mass. town.

    Lexington, KY Child admits to setting vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors say vacant home is a hangout for kids.

    Danbury, CT City worries about increase in abandoned properties.

    Bradenton, FL Firefighters use code enforcement officer to identify vacant properties to use for training.

    Camden, NJ One dead, another injured, in vacant rowhouse fire; Building demolished after fire, neighbors had called for demolition earlier; known to hold squatters.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fatal fire raises concern about vacant properties.

    Beltsville, MD Vacant home, for sale, burns twice in two weeks.

    Philadelphia, PA Man found dead in abandoned rowhouse fire.

    Pinole, CA "Pot Grow" operation discovered in vacant house fire.

    Anderson, SC Abandoned building, site of fire and murders, receives condemned notice.

    Los Angeles, CA Second body found in abandoned building fire.

    Boston, MA Officials target illegal apartment buildings.

    Florence, SC Legislation urged to deal with vacant buildings.

    -

    Beech Island, SC Body found in abandoned housed fire.

    Memphis, TN One dead, another injured in vacant house fire.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fire Chief urges demolition of vacant hotel due to firefighting dangers.

    Paterson, NJ Body of homeless man found in boarded up, abandoned house fire.

    Columbus, OH City to demolish 900 vacant, abandoned houses deemed dangerous.

    South Bend, IN City to demolish 100 vacant, abandnoned homes.

    South Bend, IN City demolishes vacant home, scene of nine fires.

    West Mahanoy Twp., PA Department seeks identification system for abandoned structures.

    Waco, TX Body of transient man found inside abandoned house fire.

    Detroit, MI Money reserved to demolish vacant structures unused.

    Cincinnati, OH CIDS information helps firefighters with vacant building fires.

    Brazil, IN Two injured in blast and fire at vacant house; cooking meth suspected.

    Riverhead Town, NY Vacant for 15 years, town demolished vacant home where squatters had been a problem.

    Oklahoma City, OK Man found dead inside abandoned warehouse fire; total of three people were staying in the structure.

    Milwaukee, WI, Man found dead inside vacant house fire.

    Tulsa, OK Homeless man injured in vacant house fire.

    Manhattan, NY Homeless man killed in abandoned subway room fire.

    Freeport, IL Vacant building legislation tabled during overhaul process.

    Las Vegas, NV Foreclosure rate adds to worry of increased abandoned home fires.

    -

    Watertown, NY Squatter cited for starting fire to keep warm in abandoned apartment house.

    Seattle, WA Burned transient man found at abandoned house fire.

    Modesto, CA Neighbors blame squatters for vacant house fire

    Springfield, OH Squatter rescued from second floor of reported vacant home.

    Columbus, OH Firefighters push for ways to designate vacant homes and reduce risk of injury.

    St. John the Baptist Parish, LA Vacant apartment buildings in housing project, some previously burned, finally torn down.

    Lula, GA Man rescued from trailer fire; Locals state trailer had been vacant for three to four months.

    Detroit, MI Body of homicide victim found in one of many fires set in vacant homes.

    Knoxville, TN Evidence of many homeless people living in vacant warehouse found during fire. No injuries reported.

    South Bend, IN Family seen leaving abandoned home prior to fire; city unable to demo home since fire department owns structure.

    Minneapolis, MN Firefighters recall falling into basement at vacant house fire while searching for occupant inside.

    Colorado Springs, CO Squatters seen as cause of abandoned warehouse fire.

    Boise, ID Fire companies able to train inside vacant warehouse.

    Richmond, VA Homeless woman charged in fatal vacant house fire.

    Houston, TX Children blamed for starting fire inside vacant house.

    Hyattsville, MD Local media reports on problems with vacant homes in D.C. area comunity. Mutli-series report.

    Bel Air, MD Vacant landmark to be torn down.

    Chicago, IL Two squatters jump from second floor to escape house fire.

    San Jose, CA Firefighters recognize vacant home is unstable and use exterior operations.

    Chicago Heights, IL Police arrest five juveniles after property manager discovers them living in vacant house.

    Lexington, KY Neighbors say squatter was living in home, site of natural gas explosion.

    Dover, MN Fire department allowed to burn down house deemed "eyesore and public safety hazard."

    Los Angeles, CA Pot growing operation found inside vacant house fire.

    Jersey City, NJ Police officers and firefighter injured pulling sqautters from vacant building fire.

    Cincinnati, OH Cincinnati Public Schools fined for safety violations after fire in vacant elementary school.

    Pickering, Ontario Suspicious fire destroys abandoned farm home were "dungeon room" was discovered by authorities.

    Columbus, OH City struggles wth growing number of vacant homes; citizens ask that they be torn down.

    Columbus, OH Fatal fire creates public hearing on vacant housing.

    Chicago, IL Owner of abandoned building where two firefighters died and 19 were injured, held in jail, unable to post bail.

    Beckley, WV Vacant building destroyed in fire, owned by city, leased to congregation for church services.

    Spencer, OK Vacant since 1972, firefighters take defensive position at abandoned high school fire.

    Douglasville, GA – Officials meet with homeowners on possesson law.

    Irvington, NJ – Fire in a structure well-known for having squatters.

    Charleston, SC – Fire building well-known for having squatters
    FyredUp and Miller337 like this.
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #165
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So basically you go through all the effort involved with inspecting these buildings, marking them, and documenting them in the computer as structurally deficiency, and then some guy of the street can tell you "I think I may have seen somebody coming out of there a couple of days ago", so now you make entry?

    PROTECTING LIVES and property. That is our job. Not every one is a stone cold heartless son of a bitch like you are LA. We are in the fire service to SAVE LIVES and protect property. Sometimes we take CALCULATED RISKS based on a mental RISK vs BENEFIT analysis. IF the benefit out weighs the risk then an attempt at search will be made. Frankly, if you are going to let the building burn down aren't you risking the lives of any firefighter that responds in anything other than the first "Watch it burn down engine company?"

    I guess if it works for you, have at it, but to me something like that will never be a report reliable enough to commit members into a building with known structural issues.

    Simply too much risk on the shoulders of my members for too little benefit on far too little reliable information.

    And that is the difference between you and a firefighter. A firefighter would look at the circumstances, meaning condition of the building, and the extent of the fire, and determine if a search was feasible. Your mind is made up before you arrived.

    And I will ask you a very simple question, which is the same one I have asked Fryred, as well as the other pro-go in abandoned buildings posters and have yet to get a concrete answer..... How many folks have you found in abandoned building fires in your career and roughly what percentage of abandoned building fires does that represent?

    Golly LA, is the list that the Chief posted enough for you. Again no one cares what you do in Bossier Parrish Louisiana, why do you think you have the right to tell EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE else that they are wrong?

    As far as your comment about room and contents fires, you know that's not the case. Yes, I have stated that there are very clear differences in terms of where the go/no go line exists between my combo and volunteer departments on interior operations, based on the differences in resources, training and experience, but you know damn well that I never stated I would not make entry in either department on a room and contents fire. But hey, let's not have the facts get in the way.

    By your own comments you have said OVER, and OVER, and OVER, and OVER, that you woud not have entered in many of the fires that your real firefighters did enter and put the fire out. I just shake my head and wonder why you don't just do your little pub ed gig, and what ever paperwork pushing you are assigned and leave training and real firefighting to those that have the courage, and skills to do it. Because it seems your major fire ground skill is to stand on the front lawn and yell "DON'T GO IN THERE IT IS ON FIRE!!"

    I see you as nothing more than being an enabler of the "New Wave Pussification" of the fire service. Over and over you make excuses for why someone can't do somthing, while never seeming to have a solution, or even to be seriously working to correct deficiencies. Kind of like "Golly guys, yes you suck, and will never not suck, so don't feel bad when you haven't even been able to save a foundation."

    My number one POC FD about 37 years ago suffered from a general malaise, poor training, poor attendance, more a bunch of good old boys that while they tried when they had a call just didn't quite have it together. They had inadequate PPE, not nearly enough or the right firefighting tools, hose, nozzles, and the rigs were ancient. Now jet forward to the late 70's, we got an influx of young guys who wanted to learn,who wanted to train, and who wanted to do a good job, not just get by. We began to send guys to classes, we began updating PPE and equipment and today we have great PPE, great equipment and apparatus, are considered a strong mutual aid partner and looked at as being somewhat radical in our equipment choices and training practices. My point? You can wallow or you can work to move forward. We chose to move forward, you seem to like to wallow and make excuses. That just isn't my style

    There are somethings we will never agree on and your preaching to everyone else is one of them.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-29-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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  6. #166
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do you even read what others post, or do you suffer from constipation of rational thought then let diarrhea flow from your fingers onto your keyboard?

    As far as asking for "concrete answers".... here are the reasons to do a quick search if conditions allow... from Backstepfirefighter.com's "why we search" tab 2010 to 2012


    Chicago, IL – December 2010
    Firefighters rescued two squatters from a vacant West Side building.

    New Orleans, LA – December 2010
    Eight dead, two injured in abandoned warehouse fire.

    Philadelphia, PA – December 2010
    Elderly man found dead inside burned warehouse.

    Chicago, IL – December 2010
    Owner of building in LODD fire may face criminal charges. Video report.

    Altoona, PA – December 2010
    Training and preplanning with vacant buildings.

    Bend, OR – December 2010
    “- there was extensive evidence that transients had been living in the vacant home.”

    Freson, CA – December 2010
    Squatter starts fire.

    Dallas, TX – November 2010
    Police hear calls from help within vacant building on fire. Homeless man rescued.

    Hartford, CT – October 2010
    “When firefighters arrived, there was heavy smoke and a small fire in the building, fire officials said. There also were signs that people had been living in the building.”

    Prague, Czech Republic – October 2010
    Two rescued, nine dead, from fire in abandoned building in Prague. Video.

    Houston, TX – October 2010
    Vacant homes catch fire in Houston; “Wells, who captured the flames on her cell phone camera, knows the property inside and out, especially those who she says would often frequent it.”

    Syracuse, NY – Oct 2010
    “”During our initial attack we found mattresses, couches and that would support that there could be people staying there illegally or squatting,” said Deputy Fire Chief

    Atlanta, GA Two men arrested in connection with abandoned building fire.

    Detroit, MI Body found inside vacant house fire.

    San Francisco, CA Court warrant helps get abandoned home torn down.

    Queens, NY Shot man found at abandoned house fire.

    Flint, MI Review of vacant building fires in the city.

    Omaha, NE Body found in abandoned building fire.

    Greenville, NC City tres to deal with problem of squatters.

    Modesto, CA Squatters arrested for child endangerment.

    Las Vegas, NV Squatters blamed for vacant house fire.

    Buffalo, NY Preplans help firefighters at vacant building fire.

    Atlanta, GA Homeless man rescued from abandoned house fire.

    Exeter, NH Body found in vacant buildng fire.

    - – -

    Chicago, IL City tears down 300th abandoned building.

    Merced, CA Homeless man charged with starting vacant building fire.

    Lancaster, PA Squatters suspected in cause of abandoned building fire.

    Yakima, WA Second victim in abandoned house fire dies.

    Princeton, NJ University "gives away" school-owned vacant homes for demolition.

    Birmingham, AL Three bodies found inside vacant house fire.

    Knoxville, TN Body found after fire in boarded up convenience store.

    Dayton, OH Man burned by fire in vacant house.

    Washington, PA Squatters suspected in starting abandoned house fire.

    Brownsville, TX Teen girl charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Southeast, NY Teens charged with setting abandoned home on fire.

    Los Banos, CA Homeless man and woman arrested; fire set in vacant house during fight.

    Wilmington, DE Body found after fire in vacant house.

    Rochester, NY Officials identify vacant, dangerous buildings.

    Staten Island, NY Firefighters injured in vacant/occupied house fire.

    Indianapolis, IN Vacant home ordered demolished after fire.

    Kansas City, MO Man injured in vacant house fire.

    Weatherford, TX Homeless man believed to be behind cause of vacant building fire.

    Cedar Rapids, IA Fire department takes news strategy towards vacant house fires.

    - – -

    Columbia, SC One person treated after abandoned house fire.

    Upper Marlboro, MD Body found in abandoned house fire.

    South Sacramento, CA Neighbors turn in squatter after house fire.

    Detroit, MI Body found in vacant house fire.

    Staunton, VA Vacant home allowed to burn.

    Oahu, HI Squatters injured in abandoned house fire.

    Shrewsbury, MA Abandoned restaurant deemed unsafe.

    Jeannette, PA Police, firefighters search for teens in abandoned hospital.

    Detroit, MI Long-standing vacant housing project slated for demolition.

    Battle Ground, WA Teens start mattress fire in abandoned nursing home.

    Hyannis, MA Teens sleeping in woods seek shelter; start fire in baseball broadcast booth.

    Colorado Springs, CO Man rescued from basement of church during 0400 hrs fire.

    Omaha, NE Body inside abandoned house fire identified as known homeless man.

    Omaha, NE Body found inside abandoned house fire rubble.

    Berwick, PA Vacant house fires worry neighbors.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned house burn.

    Southbank, AU Squatters, pregnant teen pulled from abandoned building fire.

    Detroit, MI Angels' Night fires hit 17-year low.

    - – -

    Quincy, IL City fire department begins marking vacant buildings.

    Connellsville, PA Health officer drafts vacant building policy.

    Atlanta, GA Teens seen running from eyesore building shortly before fire.

    Peoria, IL Roof collapses on building known for homeless people.

    Glouchester City, NJ Homeless man admits to starting three-alarm fire.

    Denver, CO Five dead in after hours fire at bar.

    Pottsville, PA New law targets dwelling upkeep, appearance.

    Colorado Springs, CO Abandoned building fire started by transients.

    Richmond, CA Fire likely caused by squatters.

    Dayton, OH Residents fear vacant house fires.

    Silver City, NM Officials consider vacant building registry.

    Canton OH Vacant house fires worry citizens.

    - – -

    Redding, CA Burned home known as common hangout for transients.

    Eubank, KY Vacant structure fires worry town residents.

    Canton, OH Vagrants jump from second floor during house fire.

    Augusta, GA Code violations at large, vacant mall.

    Ypsilanti, MI Abandoned home slated for demolition after inspection.

    Huntington, WV Firefighters let abandoned home burn.

    Mansfield, OH Captain calls for demolishing vacant buildings.

    Canton, OH Vacant home finally torn down after fourth fire.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters burned in abandoned house fire.

    San Angelo, TX Signs of squatters found in abandoned building fire.

    Beaver Dam, WI Vacant building ordinance stalls.

    Knoxville, TN Squatters suspected in causing abandoned house fire.

    Fort Worth, TX Firefighters inisde during roof collapse at vacant building fire.

    Balto. Cnty, MD Historic designation keeps vacant building standing, burning.

    Slinger, WI Toxic chemicals found stored inside abandoned building.

    Manchester, NH City debates razing buildings damages by fire.

    Memphis, TN Five vacant houses set on fire.

    Frankfort, IL Cadets train with abandoned building.

    Laguna Heights, TX Family homeless after abandoned house fire.

    Pickering, ONT Owner pleads guilty to abandoned farmhouse, dungeon.

    Portland, OR Five-alarm vacant hotel fire, propert used as storage site.

    Memphis, TN Abandoned building fire causes citizens to speak up about neighborhood blight.

    - – -

    Bristol Township, PA Officials target vacant houses.

    Logansport, IN Authorities work to seal abandoned houses.

    Camden, NJ Program launched to identify dangerous abandoned buildings.

    Lakeland, FL Squatters take over home, scene of earlier arson, murder attempt.

    Seattle, WA Vacant homes seen as magnets for transients.

    Vallejo, CA Squatters linked to recent vacant building fires.

    Natrona County, WY Vacant buildings near school tempting for students.

    Indianapolis, IN Arson on the rise, many in vacant buildings.

    - – -

    Kannapolis, NC City votes to demolish vacant buildings.

    Concord, CA, Squatter admits to setting fire after arguing with other squatters.

    Nyack, NY City proposes marking dangerous buildings.

    - – -

    Mobile, AL Homeless people suspected in cause of vacant house fire.

    Detroit, MI Firefighters injured at vacant school fire, building on list for demolition.

    Lorain, OH City struggles with vacant house fires.

    Binghamton, NY Children set fire to vacant home while in basement.

    Philadelphia, PA Abandoned home collapses after years of warnings.

    Birmingham, AL Police officer charged in vacant house fire spree.

    - – -

    Schenectady, NY Foreclosure raid follows series of vacant house fires.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors upset about vacant, burnt home.

    Birmingham, AL City to demolish over 200 vacant homes after string of arson.

    St. Petersburg, FL Homeless woman dies from injuries after being resuced from vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Vacant home known to be occupied by homeless people burns.

    Salt Lake City, UT Transient arrested for vacant house fire.

    Prichard, AL Rash of vacant building fires likely started by homeless people.

    Detroit, MI Risk vs aggressiveness in decision to let vacant buildings burn.

    New Orleans, LA Vacant firehouses up for auction.

    Buffalo, NY Demolitons leave many wondering if vacant homes could have been saved.

    Detroit, MI Citizens and business owners sue neglected property owners.

    Chicago, IL Demo bid process for vacant homes becomes competitive.

    District of Columbia Neglected home of local activists placed on abandoned property list despite owners living inside.

    Walnut Hill, FL Dispute breaks ut at fire over who own vacant house.

    El Paso, TX Property owners react to vacant building ordinance.

    Detroit, MI Eyesore finally torn down.

    Bronx, NY – Building Department officials leave vacant building unsecured.

    Philadelphia, PA Organizations try to deal with abandoned buildings.

    Kansas City, MO Abandoned homes become nuisance for neighbors.

    -

    South Salt Lake, UT People found living in storage units.

    Omaha, NE Smoke is full; vacant home lights up after ventilation.

    Chillicothe, MO City plans demolition of vacant homes.

    Independence, MO Abandoned school burs; neighbors report teens inside many times.

    Detroit, MI Fire Commissioner propses letting vacant buildings burn if over 50% involved, to save budget.

    Seattle, WA Neighbors happy vacant home burns.

    Highland Park, MI Vacant homes in series of fires known as haven for squatters.

    Lewiston, ME Fire department takes cautious approach to dangerous buildings.

    Philadelphia, PA City looks at who owns vacant properties after death of two firefighters.

    Toledo, OH Citizens criticize city's tracking of abandoned properties.

    Galveston, TX Man jumps from abandoned house fire.

    Boston, MA City task force created after Worcester Cold Storage fire finds over 200 "fire traps".

    Huntington, WV Town questions why so many vacant homes?

    San Francisco, CA "Occupy" protestors take over vacant church building.

    Rancho Cordova, CA Firefighters pull two from inside vacant motel fire.

    -

    Irvington, NJ Squatter cause two alarm house fire.

    Detroit, MI One person dead in fire at vacant commercial building.

    Newark, NJ Vacant home owned by mayor catches fire.

    Chicago, IL Neighborhood activists say city didn't do enough to secure vacant house.

    Kansas City, MO Worker finds body while cleaning up after vacant house fire.

    Dayton, OH Homeless man accused of setting fire in vacant home.

    Holyoke, MA Mill fire raises problem of vacant buildings in Mass. town.

    Lexington, KY Child admits to setting vacant house fire.

    Las Vegas, NV Neighbors say vacant home is a hangout for kids.

    Danbury, CT City worries about increase in abandoned properties.

    Bradenton, FL Firefighters use code enforcement officer to identify vacant properties to use for training.

    Camden, NJ One dead, another injured, in vacant rowhouse fire; Building demolished after fire, neighbors had called for demolition earlier; known to hold squatters.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fatal fire raises concern about vacant properties.

    Beltsville, MD Vacant home, for sale, burns twice in two weeks.

    Philadelphia, PA Man found dead in abandoned rowhouse fire.

    Pinole, CA "Pot Grow" operation discovered in vacant house fire.

    Anderson, SC Abandoned building, site of fire and murders, receives condemned notice.

    Los Angeles, CA Second body found in abandoned building fire.

    Boston, MA Officials target illegal apartment buildings.

    Florence, SC Legislation urged to deal with vacant buildings.

    -

    Beech Island, SC Body found in abandoned housed fire.

    Memphis, TN One dead, another injured in vacant house fire.

    Wilkes-Barre, PA Fire Chief urges demolition of vacant hotel due to firefighting dangers.

    Paterson, NJ Body of homeless man found in boarded up, abandoned house fire.

    Columbus, OH City to demolish 900 vacant, abandoned houses deemed dangerous.

    South Bend, IN City to demolish 100 vacant, abandnoned homes.

    South Bend, IN City demolishes vacant home, scene of nine fires.

    West Mahanoy Twp., PA Department seeks identification system for abandoned structures.

    Waco, TX Body of transient man found inside abandoned house fire.

    Detroit, MI Money reserved to demolish vacant structures unused.

    Cincinnati, OH CIDS information helps firefighters with vacant building fires.

    Brazil, IN Two injured in blast and fire at vacant house; cooking meth suspected.

    Riverhead Town, NY Vacant for 15 years, town demolished vacant home where squatters had been a problem.

    Oklahoma City, OK Man found dead inside abandoned warehouse fire; total of three people were staying in the structure.

    Milwaukee, WI, Man found dead inside vacant house fire.

    Tulsa, OK Homeless man injured in vacant house fire.

    Manhattan, NY Homeless man killed in abandoned subway room fire.

    Freeport, IL Vacant building legislation tabled during overhaul process.

    Las Vegas, NV Foreclosure rate adds to worry of increased abandoned home fires.

    -

    Watertown, NY Squatter cited for starting fire to keep warm in abandoned apartment house.

    Seattle, WA Burned transient man found at abandoned house fire.

    Modesto, CA Neighbors blame squatters for vacant house fire

    Springfield, OH Squatter rescued from second floor of reported vacant home.

    Columbus, OH Firefighters push for ways to designate vacant homes and reduce risk of injury.

    St. John the Baptist Parish, LA Vacant apartment buildings in housing project, some previously burned, finally torn down.

    Lula, GA Man rescued from trailer fire; Locals state trailer had been vacant for three to four months.

    Detroit, MI Body of homicide victim found in one of many fires set in vacant homes.

    Knoxville, TN Evidence of many homeless people living in vacant warehouse found during fire. No injuries reported.

    South Bend, IN Family seen leaving abandoned home prior to fire; city unable to demo home since fire department owns structure.

    Minneapolis, MN Firefighters recall falling into basement at vacant house fire while searching for occupant inside.

    Colorado Springs, CO Squatters seen as cause of abandoned warehouse fire.

    Boise, ID Fire companies able to train inside vacant warehouse.

    Richmond, VA Homeless woman charged in fatal vacant house fire.

    Houston, TX Children blamed for starting fire inside vacant house.

    Hyattsville, MD Local media reports on problems with vacant homes in D.C. area comunity. Mutli-series report.

    Bel Air, MD Vacant landmark to be torn down.

    Chicago, IL Two squatters jump from second floor to escape house fire.

    San Jose, CA Firefighters recognize vacant home is unstable and use exterior operations.

    Chicago Heights, IL Police arrest five juveniles after property manager discovers them living in vacant house.

    Lexington, KY Neighbors say squatter was living in home, site of natural gas explosion.

    Dover, MN Fire department allowed to burn down house deemed "eyesore and public safety hazard."

    Los Angeles, CA Pot growing operation found inside vacant house fire.

    Jersey City, NJ Police officers and firefighter injured pulling sqautters from vacant building fire.

    Cincinnati, OH Cincinnati Public Schools fined for safety violations after fire in vacant elementary school.

    Pickering, Ontario Suspicious fire destroys abandoned farm home were "dungeon room" was discovered by authorities.

    Columbus, OH City struggles wth growing number of vacant homes; citizens ask that they be torn down.

    Columbus, OH Fatal fire creates public hearing on vacant housing.

    Chicago, IL Owner of abandoned building where two firefighters died and 19 were injured, held in jail, unable to post bail.

    Beckley, WV Vacant building destroyed in fire, owned by city, leased to congregation for church services.

    Spencer, OK Vacant since 1972, firefighters take defensive position at abandoned high school fire.

    Douglasville, GA – Officials meet with homeowners on possesson law.

    Irvington, NJ – Fire in a structure well-known for having squatters.

    Charleston, SC – Fire building well-known for having squatters
    A damn shame you couldn't find any documentation to support your point.

    Better luck next time!
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  7. #167
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    DAMMIT GONZO!!! There you go again bringing fact and logic into the conversation!!!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So basically you go through all the effort involved with inspecting these buildings, marking them, and documenting them in the computer as structurally deficiency, and then some guy of the street can tell you "I think I may have seen somebody coming out of there a couple of days ago", so now you make entry?
    .
    You got it perfectly bassackwards. The whole point of their documentation of building conditions is in order to make sure that "some guy on the street" does NOT compel them to make entry when they shouldn't.

    If John Q. Public says someone may be inside, Gonzo's commander says one of two things:

    1. Well, based on our survey of this building's condition as of October, and looking at the degree of fire involvement, I don't feel that we can safely search this building.

    2. Our inspection shows that the condition of this building is such that there is no inordinate risk from searching, and the fire is not so advanced as to make it untenable, so we're going in.

    The preplan info helps the IC have a more complete picture of the prospects for a safe and worthwhile search. It does NOT encourage reckless entry into an unsafe structure.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
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  9. #169
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    The building marking program works for our community. We recently removed the signage from a residential structure ( a 1960's vintage 2 bedroom ranch) that had been marked with the X. The home was owned by an elderly man who was not only a hoarder but a "semi doomsday prepper" who was very ill and finally was talked by family members into going to the hospital. He was so ill he passed away a few weeks later.

    We went in as part of the Code Enforcement Impact Team which includes Human Services, Police, Fire, the Building Department and the Board of Health.

    The building was marked because of the hoarding. It had no running water, the gas heat was shut off and the gentleman was living in one room with electric heaters as the only heat source. There was rumors of numerous firearms and ammunition in the structure. Plenty of ammo was found, but only one firearm at the time we went in.

    The amount of "stuff" inside the home was staggering. We were walking from room to room with at least 2 feet of "stuff" covering the floor... where you could find floor. It took thirteen thirty yard dumpsters to haul it all out of there. The other firearms that were cached in the place were found under all the stuff.

    The home has been sold by the man's estate and is going to be completely gutted and rebuilt to present day codes.That was one building on the list that, if it ever caught fire would be fully involved within minutes due to the high fire load.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  10. #170
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Your list pretty much proves that we should remove the word "vacant" from our vocabulary.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Your list pretty much proves that we should remove the word "vacant" from our vocabulary.
    I don't think that we need to remove it from our vocabulary, I just think people need to understand that it means a building does not have any regular tenants. I think most of us understand that we need to be observant for signs of being occupied by someone, and to search according to the conditions found. Let's not abandon common sense.

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    There may be more people living in "abandoned" structures in the city of Detroit than the total number of people living in Bossier Parish, LA.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Your list pretty much proves that we should remove the word "vacant" from our vocabulary.
    Ken... we can't to that. How would we describe the interior certain individual's skull if we did?
    FyredUp likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Ken... we can't to that. How would we describe the interior certain individual's skull if we did?
    Thanks Chief, I needed a good laugh today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    You got it perfectly bassackwards. The whole point of their documentation of building conditions is in order to make sure that "some guy on the street" does NOT compel them to make entry when they shouldn't.

    If John Q. Public says someone may be inside, Gonzo's commander says one of two things:

    1. Well, based on our survey of this building's condition as of October, and looking at the degree of fire involvement, I don't feel that we can safely search this building.

    2. Our inspection shows that the condition of this building is such that there is no inordinate risk from searching, and the fire is not so advanced as to make it untenable, so we're going in.

    The preplan info helps the IC have a more complete picture of the prospects for a safe and worthwhile search. It does NOT encourage reckless entry into an unsafe structure.
    Which was exactly the point of my question.

    Exactly how much of a report of occupancy from "the guy on the street" does it take to override the "X" and the dangers that caused the "X" to be put up?

    If ANY kind of report of occupancy, no matter how sketchy will get the members inside, what is the point of marking the buildings?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-30-2013 at 07:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Your list pretty much proves that we should remove the word "vacant" from our vocabulary.
    Given that likely departments in the US responds to probably 10's of thousands of reports, if not more, of fires in vacant/abandoned structures every year, those on that list represent a very, very, very small percentage.

    Again, I am a numbers guys. I make my decisions on probabilities based on numbers, not a few stories posted on a website (many of which seem to have nothing to do with occupants on arrival).


    I have asked every pro-go "if conditions allows" person on this forum a very simple question.... In what percentage of the abandoned buildings in your district say over the last 3 years, have you found occupants on arrival? .5%? 1%? 3%? 5%? And nobody can or will give me a statistical answer so we can discuss this based on concrete percentages vs. risk involved.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paetsHFD6 View Post
    There may be more people living in "abandoned" structures in the city of Detroit than the total number of people living in Bossier Parish, LA.
    Population of the parish with Bossier City ... About 130,000.

    Population of the parish without the city ... probably a little less than 50,000.

    But how many of them are in the building when the fire department arrives ... That's the important question.

    That's why i am asking avery simple question on the posters experiences with occupants on arrival vs. total incidents.
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    LA,

    There is NEVER a simple question from you. The truth is you are pushing your agenda. Despite the fact that myself and others have said we don't care what you do as long as you stop trying to push your agenda on others.

    There are enough instances of people being in those buildings to justify a search IF STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS, AS WELL AS EXTENT OF THE FIRE, allow a search and/or fire attack to be done. If a building is labeled and a cursory search is done and no one is found, if local rulings allow then the building can either be allowed to burn down, or attack can be made from the exterior.
    DeputyChiefGonzo likes this.
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  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have asked every pro-go "if conditions allows" person on this forum a very simple question.... In what percentage of the abandoned buildings in your district say over the last 3 years, have you found occupants on arrival? .5%? 1%? 3%? 5%? And nobody can or will give me a statistical answer so we can discuss this based on concrete percentages vs. risk involved.
    Hey numb-ers guy:
    When you manage to make a fire and you crap yourself, what percentage of the poo is yellowish brown? How fast in MPH can you run away from a fire and be far enough out of earshot to not hear a person screaming?
    How long does it take you to go pee pee and then casually stroll over to the rig after the tones drop?

    You cannot be in the fire service....
    FyredUp and slackjawedyokel like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Which was exactly the point of my question.

    Exactly how much of a report of occupancy from "the guy on the street" does it take to override the "X" and the dangers that caused the "X" to be put up?

    If ANY kind of report of occupancy, no matter how sketchy will get the members inside, what is the point of marking the buildings?
    The point of marking the building is still the same. It alerts the responding personnel to the fact that there ARE known dangers with the building.

    In the absence of credible evidence or reports of occupancy, the "X" tells the units to initiate a defensive operation. With credible evidence or reports of occupancy, the "X" tells the units that if fire conditions allow for it, then personnel should use extreme caution with any efforts to conduct a search for victims and then transition to a defensive operation when search operations are finished.

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