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Thread: Hydrant Valves

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    Default Hydrant Valves

    What are you using for a ldh hydrant valve for 5" storz?

    We have been using a piston intake and wanting to switch to something lighter/more compact.

    We looked at TFT but it looks like they restrict the water flow to just less than 4". Would be going from 4.5" F to 5" Storz.

    Would like a large bleader - will be using this to fill tankers in a tanker shuttle and would like to use the bleader to blead water off the line to make the line easier to move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchkrat View Post
    What are you using for a ldh hydrant valve for 5" storz?

    We have been using a piston intake and wanting to switch to something lighter/more compact.

    We looked at TFT but it looks like they restrict the water flow to just less than 4". Would be going from 4.5" F to 5" Storz.

    Would like a large bleader - will be using this to fill tankers in a tanker shuttle and would like to use the bleader to blead water off the line to make the line easier to move.
    Hydrant valve or an intake valve? Two completely different creatures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Hydrant valve or an intake valve? Two completely different creatures.
    Yes - we aquired a piston intake and would put it on the hydrant backwards. It worked - just big and heavy. That's why I'm wanting to switch.

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    I'm slightly confused as to what you're doing with an intake valve on a hydrant? Just adding an inline shut-off at the hydrant? We use the Harrington 4 Way hydrant assist valve taht allows shut-off, free flow or assing a pumper after freeflowing. It work very well, and I'd think that unless your hydrants are flowing huge water, the short distance that is 4" vs full flow 5" wouldn't restrict the flow enough to notice.

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    Mitchkrat,

    We just recently switched from 4" to 5" hose. In the process we demo'd the TFT Oasis valve both as a Hydrant Valve and an In-Line Valve. The hydrants that we could use it on have pretty good statiic pressure. (80-100 psi) Even with the smaller waterway, the valve has only 15psi friction loss flowing 1000gpm. With the addition of 5" hose, we can easily flow 1000 gpm or more for over 1000 ft. The design of the valve allows for very good water delivery efficiency. But, you should try it for yourself to actually get the feel for it on the hydrants that you would use. It is also fairly light and compact. (35lbs.) It is a huge improvement over the large 4" Jaffery in-line valve that we had. Here is the link to the TFT pdf file that gives all the infor for your review. http://www.tft.com/literature/librar...-420_REV00.pdf Good Luck!

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    Default Using Hydrant valve to speed up water shuttles

    What we are using the hydrant valve for is to speed up the process of filling tankers in a tanker shuttle. It's faster to shut down the hydrant valve vs hydrant it self. We then use the bleeder to bleed water off the hose to make it easier to disconnect the hose from the tanker (storz connections).

    Most departments in our area have standardized on 5" LDH with Storz connections on their tanker direct tank refills.

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    In my many years of teaching pumps ops classes all over the very diverse state that I live in, I've yet to see anyone putting an intake valve on a hydrant. Interesting theory, but I suppose that I'm still not clear why you'd take the time to hook this behemoth to the hydrant rather than using something like this at some point in your hose lay?

    To me this would make more sense, because in a shuttle operation where tankers are being filled, this would allow you to put the person controlling the flow of the water closer to the action (while maintaining a safe distance of course) and not being married to the hydrant. Furthermore, if you need the hydrant for something other than a tanker fill site, you don't incumber any additional friction loss (or time) by hooking a non-critical appliance directly to the hydrant - simply use a Storz-to-threaded hydrant adapter.

    Somewhat off-topic, but directly related, is the use of 5" on direct tank fills on the rear of tankers during shuttle ops. After numerous tests and studies at both of my departments, we've found that its more efficient for us to run 5" from the hydrant (or supply pumper if drafting) to a manifold such as featured in the link above. Then we run dual 3" lines to the two direct tank fills on the rear of the tankers - giving the same flow as a single 4". Why, you ask? The time we were losing disconnecting the heavy, water filled 5" directly impacted our tanker delivery rate far more than the minimal time lost by using dual 3" lines instead of a single 5".

    Also in the name of efficiency, we have 5" Storz X 2.5"F on the rear of all of our tankers, allowing us to have quarter-turn speed no matter which size hose is used at the fill site.
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    Wow......this thread is giving me a headache.....But then again I have hydrants everywhere except for one small piece of our pie- and no tankers within 20 miles, so it's drop multiple beds of the big stuff for us......lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    In my many years of teaching pumps ops classes all over the very diverse state that I live in, I've yet to see anyone putting an intake valve on a hydrant. Interesting theory, but I suppose that I'm still not clear why you'd take the time to hook this behemoth to the hydrant rather than using something like this at some point in your hose lay?

    To me this would make more sense, because in a shuttle operation where tankers are being filled, this would allow you to put the person controlling the flow of the water closer to the action (while maintaining a safe distance of course) and not being married to the hydrant. Furthermore, if you need the hydrant for something other than a tanker fill site, you don't incumber any additional friction loss (or time) by hooking a non-critical appliance directly to the hydrant - simply use a Storz-to-threaded hydrant adapter.

    Somewhat off-topic, but directly related, is the use of 5" on direct tank fills on the rear of tankers during shuttle ops. After numerous tests and studies at both of my departments, we've found that its more efficient for us to run 5" from the hydrant (or supply pumper if drafting) to a manifold such as featured in the link above. Then we run dual 3" lines to the two direct tank fills on the rear of the tankers - giving the same flow as a single 4". Why, you ask? The time we were losing disconnecting the heavy, water filled 5" directly impacted our tanker delivery rate far more than the minimal time lost by using dual 3" lines instead of a single 5".

    Also in the name of efficiency, we have 5" Storz X 2.5"F on the rear of all of our tankers, allowing us to have quarter-turn speed no matter which size hose is used at the fill site.
    We have the same issue with disconnecting the 5" when it's full - that's where the bleeder valve helps.

    Have you ever tried running the manifold in reverse (5" in hooked up on the out port)? That way, when tanker is full shut off the incoming water and then open one of the 2 1/2" ports that's not being used to dump the water from the line?

    For us, 5% of our district has hydrants so we use water shuttles for the vast majoirty of our structure fires.

    All our mutual aid has standardized on single 5" ldh direct tank refills. We could look at a regional grant to add the simese to each tanker to allow 2 lines for filling - but in the mean time still looking at the quickest way to get water out of the 5" inch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchkrat View Post

    Have you ever tried running the manifold in reverse (5" in hooked up on the out port)? That way, when tanker is full shut off the incoming water and then open one of the 2 1/2" ports that's not being used to dump the water from the line?
    We've seen that the LDH single inlets for tank filling are often harder to release, heavier to deal with and get everything (and everyone) wet. This is problematic 4-5 months of the year where we have freezing temps. A bleeder can help, but a 5" LDH from the suplly (hydrant or pumper) to a 3 way (or more) gated wye allows multiple fill lines of 2.5" or 3" and an open port to bleed off quickly and controlled (some carry a short cut off section of 2.5" to direct this bleed-off. This at most requires an operator at the pump(hydrant) and a wye operator/connection firefighter.

    Given it sounds like your area is already set up for LDH fills you could adapt a gated wye to upsize the outlet to LDH, the flow restriction would certainly be negligeable, and hte open outlet port would serve as a larger bleeder (again a short 2.5" cut off line helps direct this flow).
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 03-25-2013 at 05:26 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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    Way to complicated. Take a short section of LDH and connect one end to your hydrant. Connect the other to a LDH gated-wye. The trick is to connect the hydrant to one of the wye sides (side with two connections). Then run your fill line from the side with the single connection to the tanker.

    To fill, open the gate that goes to the hydrant. When done, close that gate and open the other to drain the fill line. This is how I always set up my tanker fills as the 4" or 5" gate will drain the line a lot faster than a bleeder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbob View Post
    Way to complicated. Take a short section of LDH and connect one end to your hydrant. Connect the other to a LDH gated-wye. The trick is to connect the hydrant to one of the wye sides (side with two connections). Then run your fill line from the side with the single connection to the tanker.

    To fill, open the gate that goes to the hydrant. When done, close that gate and open the other to drain the fill line. This is how I always set up my tanker fills as the 4" or 5" gate will drain the line a lot faster than a bleeder.
    How does that setup work for you? That's what we are getting ready to experiment with, I got a grant for a gated Y and 2 hydrant valves to try that. I may ask if I can modify the grant and trade the 2 hydrant valves for another gated Y.

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    One thing to keep in mind with the filling of Tankers, if any of them have Fiberglass or Poly type tanks, Check with the manuf. or your specifications, Most all Poly and Fiberglass resctrict fill pressure to a max. of 100PSI and or 1000GPM. Just something to think about.

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    mitchkrat: I absolutely agree with you, that it in difficult to almost impossible to lift upward on a 5" hose and then spin the Storz coupling free even under just the head pressure from the water in a tanker. It MUST be bled down to relieve the forces on the coupling and firefighter. In almost 20 years of teaching Rural Fireground Water Movement, my partner and I have encountered this on MANY occasions. (We usually allow the students to try and discover this problem at every class) The best set-up through the years has been with either 3" storz or 2 1/2" Cam-Loc couplings. Filling with dual lines and assigning two firefighters to making and breaking seems to work the best. Unless you are VERY unusual with regard to your hydrant system, often direct hydrant connection limits the fill rate to what that particular hydrant can supply at about 10 psi. (friction between hydrant and tanker). The usual recommendation for a fill site is to bring a hydrant line into a gated intake, and then place a drop tank on the opposite side steamer using 6" hard sleeve. If there is a lower flow (say 600 gpm) hydrant, then during the disconnect and hook operation, the drop tank gets filled right through the engine's intakes. When filling, both the drop tank and the hydrant flow are used to speed the fill rate to at least 1,000 gpm. Other previous suggestions like using a reversed wye, and watching the max fill rate/pressures specified by the tank manufacturer are critical. By using this medthod, you should never cause a water hammer on the hydrant system by slamming the fill valve off, because the hydrant line will be slowly closed as the drop tank becomes filled between shuttle connections. Keep a return line from the engine back to the drop tank, thus keeping water flowing in cold weather. If you find that filling a large (3,000 gal +) tanker in the middle of the string, you can open the apparatus tank to pump and avoid waiting for a lower flow hydrant. One critical element that is usually forgotten or ignored is the size of the overflow/vent on a tanker. You can estimate the sort of internal tank pressure that will be generated when the tank gets completely full by measuring the diameter of the vent opening. Using that diameter, back calculate the effective nozzle pressure for the fill rate you are using. Example: a 10" vent at 1,000 gpm would be 0.11 psi. while a 4" vent would be 4.4 psi. These numbers might not seem high, but it is in pounds per square inch. Let us assume a home-made tank with a square top of 6 ft wide by 12 ft. long. (72 sq ft or 10,368 sq. inches) In the 10 inch vent the pressure trying to raise the lid is 1,140 lbs. Filling at the same rate aganst a 4" vent the pressure would be 45,619 pounds (22 tons). Think before you act with hydraulics!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchkrat View Post
    How does that setup work for you? That's what we are getting ready to experiment with, I got a grant for a gated Y and 2 hydrant valves to try that. I may ask if I can modify the grant and trade the 2 hydrant valves for another gated Y.
    Works beautifully. Especially when you go to bleed the pressure as kuh shise says. Drains the LDH line super quickly and allows for you to disconnect within 5 seconds of when you stop filling with a minimal amount of getting wet.

    If you want I can try to take a picture of this setup next time I'm at the station.

    http://www.gotbigwater.com/content/o...k%20Alaska.pdf
    Last edited by rangerbob; 04-15-2013 at 02:20 PM.

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    I have read some complicated methods to filling tankers here. Here is how my department does it.

    We put an engine company at the hydrant. Tankers stop at the engine, the engine crew connects two 3" hoses to the tanker intakes, the engine refills the tanker at 100 PSI. It takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds (2500 gallon tankers). The tanker engineer STAYS in the cab. Speed is essential to maintaining your GPM. This is how we increase fire flow.

    Try it. It works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 16Scott View Post
    We put an engine company at the hydrant. Tankers stop at the engine, the engine crew connects two 3" hoses to the tanker intakes, the engine refills the tanker at 100 PSI. It takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds (2500 gallon tankers). The tanker engineer STAYS in the cab. Speed is essential to maintaining your GPM. This is how we increase fire flow.
    We do something similar in my VFD, but we also have a chance that during a daytime response, we might be operating the fill site's engine with a single driver/operator. It's always our goal that the tanker driver never exits the cab of either, but there may be a handful of times when they have to.

    By using a gated wye and/or manifold, we can set the engine pressure and then place the appliance remotely from the engine in a spot closer to the fill site itself (especially helpful when drafting from a static water source), making the fill site for efficient for us.
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    We got our gated Y in and started testing to find what works best in our scenario. I really like the TFT Y's since they have the crank valves.

    99% of the time the fill site will be a hydrant and will be usually unmanned due to lack of personel. Night time/weekends may have one person at the hydrant. Most hydrants we use for refill points are 1000 gpm +.


    Running the gated Y in reverse has allowed us to quickly drain the 5" hose and break the connection. Also don't get the "shower" when breaking the connection (right now with 100 degree heat, the shower might feel good )

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    Quote Originally Posted by 16Scott View Post
    I have read some complicated methods to filling tankers here. Here is how my department does it.

    We put an engine company at the hydrant. Tankers stop at the engine, the engine crew connects two 3" hoses to the tanker intakes, the engine refills the tanker at 100 PSI. It takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds (2500 gallon tankers). The tanker engineer STAYS in the cab. Speed is essential to maintaining your GPM. This is how we increase fire flow.

    Try it. It works.
    OK. So this seems to indicate all tankers have two intakes and are ready to receive the lines. What connection types are used on the 3" lines? Cam-locks, storz or threads? Everything you note is what our area does except for standardizing the lines, which is where things start to slow down. Also, do you set upt o fill more than one tanker at a time? Our folks shoot o fill two up or at least be connected to two at a time, given that speed is essential to maintaining fire flow and all.

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