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Thread: Refurbishment of a 24 year old unit or used appartus purchase??

  1. #26
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    How much cash do do you have to purchase a newer apparatus? You could trade in your current rig in as part trade value on newer used apparatus.

  2. #27
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    The big stopper on a grant for an engine is the fleet average age. The older brush truck is ok but the rest are too new in the average. Even the truck you want to refurb is much newer than what is getting funded for replacement in most cases. Unless your call volume is huge and the demographics support the cost /benefit ratio, chances of getting AFG funding are slim.
    This is not to say stop trying, as you might get lucky and get in the money.
    If you don't play , you can't win.

    There are departments out there that would give their first born child to have a truck that nice & that new.

    I stopped into visit a small department up north that has two trucks, first out is a 67 C cab ford, backup and water supply is a 59 IH, both with 500 gallon tanks, both gassers and manual trans.
    they have tried several times to get funded with no success. Small rural town with small population and small call volume. They did get turnout gear a couple years ago from AFG.

    On a good day , both will start and run down the road and maybe even stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    There are departments out there that would give their first born child to have a truck that nice & that new.

    Yes, to the power of 500.

    I stopped into visit a small department up north that has two trucks, first out is a 67 C cab ford, backup and water supply is a 59 IH, both with 500 gallon tanks, both gassers and manual trans.
    they have tried several times to get funded with no success. Small rural town with small population and small call volume. They did get turnout gear a couple years ago from AFG.

    They might be well-served to set up a bunch of automatic mutual aid to get their call volume up.
    I think a lot of departments out there don't realize how much worse other places need a truck than they do.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    I think a lot of departments out there don't realize how much worse other places need a truck than they do.
    When I joined my first POC FD in 1977 the apparatus was a 1950 Ford F700 with a 500 front mount Barton American Pump, second out was a 1937 Ford Darley with a 500 pump, and a 1949 Mack EFU (Which I am sure stood for Extremely Fracking Ugly) tanker that was a converted fuel tanker. Our big step up was to add a 1960 Ford Front Mount in I think about 1982, then we sold the 1950 and added a 1967 IH cabover with a 750 front mount pump a couple of years later. Then we added the 1974 Mack CF in the late 90's. OOOPS, forgot the first new rig since 1926, we bought a Monroe Truck pumper tanker in 1992 with a 1000 gpm front mount and a 1500 tank. The next was a 2005 HME 2000 gpm rescue engine with an AFG grant, and then last year we bought a Used 1985 Pierce 1500 Engine to replace the 1974 Mack (which now resides in my pole barn).

    We used to tell people we were the only active fire museum in the state of Wisconsin. So yeah, what BrianB35 sees as a pile of iron is some other fire departments "Dream Rig." I quarantee you we would have gladly taken it a few years back and made the majority of the repairs in house. Other than rebuilding the engine, pump, and replacing the transmission.

    I can't help but think the one thing here that makes me think "WHY?" is the transmission replacement. If the rig has been there for 24 years surely people have been trained to drive it. The cost to drop an automatic transmission in there would make that whole idea out of the question to me. Frankly the thought of a glider kit in that case makes more sense. But then if the pump needs replacement the cost of a glider kit doesn't really pan out either.
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  5. #30
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    If I'm not sorely mistaken, the only manual tranny in Ford F-series of that day was a 5x2, which gets a lot of people upset. I know one department in my county bought a BEAUTIFUL used tanker out of the Cincinnati area that was sold only because it had a manual transmission and no one could drive it.

    This county is full of coal truck drivers and heavy equipment operators. Wouldn't bother anybody here!
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    If I'm not sorely mistaken, the only manual tranny in Ford F-series of that day was a 5x2, which gets a lot of people upset. I know one department in my county bought a BEAUTIFUL used tanker out of the Cincinnati area that was sold only because it had a manual transmission and no one could drive it.

    This county is full of coal truck drivers and heavy equipment operators. Wouldn't bother anybody here!
    Our 1949 Mack was a 5x2, all of our rigs until the Mack were standard transmissions. I won't deny it is much easier to drive a truck with an automatic, but it is not impossible to drive one, or be taught to drive one, with a standard transmission.

    Driven everything from my Dad's 51 Willys CJ3A Jeep with a 3 speed and low range gear box to semi and it all boils down to willingness to learn. If you don't want to learn, or are resistant to learning, you never will get it.
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  7. #32
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    Why not use in house work to update the truck,if the transmission is a issue spend more time training drivers.

  8. #33
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    The issue isn't training, but cold start functionality. It takes 10-15 minutes of warm up before it will shift properly and during a run that is a luxury no one can afford. Cold shifts even if you double clutch is first and then go to third and lug it because second to third and third to fourth aren't going to happen when its cold.


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    Why not use in house work to update the truck,if the transmission is a issue spend more time training drivers.

  9. #34
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    I'd have no problem with that, but none of us have any heavy truck and pump repair experience. I know what I can and can't do

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB35 View Post
    The issue isn't training, but cold start functionality. It takes 10-15 minutes of warm up before it will shift properly and during a run that is a luxury no one can afford. Cold shifts even if you double clutch is first and then go to third and lug it because second to third and third to fourth aren't going to happen when its cold.
    Then something is bad wrong with that tranny. The auto in our '98 Ford is sluggish when cold, but it's functional. Our drivers know to expect a slow departure when pulling it out of the station. But if a manual is that uncooperative, I can't imagine that it couldn't be improved.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB35 View Post
    The issue isn't training, but cold start functionality. It takes 10-15 minutes of warm up before it will shift properly and during a run that is a luxury no one can afford. Cold shifts even if you double clutch is first and then go to third and lug it because second to third and third to fourth aren't going to happen when its cold.
    There is no way to say this without sounding like a smart ***...so here goes.

    Has anyone thought of taking this truck to a Ford dealer and having one of their mechanics look at this truck? Geezus, it seems to me that if the tranny is that screwed up that option would be OBVIOUS.

    I am no mechanic, but if this is a standard transmission, and it is shifting like than when cold, what the heck kind of lube do you have in that gear box? Because if it shifts better when warm it would seem to me that the lube is simply too thick when cold, and once warmed up it thins out a bit.

    Let's be honest here and put all your cards on the table...What is your real objective here? To find out that a refurb is too costly to shift support to buying a different fire engine? Or to actually do some repairs to this thing to keep it going for a few more years?

    Because if you are serious about repairs to nurse this thing along for a few more years replacing the trans with an automatic is just too costly to ever pay off. I would still take it to a dealer or a local transmission shop, or better yet have them come to you, cold start the truck and drive it themselves. BUT, then again if the motor is shot, and the pump is shot, then why are we even talking refurb? Send it down the road and buy a newer used vehicle.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-29-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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  12. #37
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    FyredUP, you're such an ***** No I am trying to help us come to a rational decision on refurb or replace. I like getting multiple responses, going over what people said, researching findings and presenting the findings to the others.

  13. #38
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    Take the truck to a commercial truck shop and have them check the transmission over. It sounds more like a improper lube issue then anything else with that tranny. I drove log trucks that sat in 0 degree weather over night and never had one issue if the correct lube was used. You guys need to see if there is apratus dealer/reapir company close by and have some one that is familiar with apparatus inspect it and give you a opion on the condition to avoid guessing that the transmission is the issue,it also could be a the transfer case on the pump needs a flush and new lube done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    Take the truck to a commercial truck shop and have them check the transmission over. It sounds more like a improper lube issue then anything else with that tranny. I drove log trucks that sat in 0 degree weather over night and never had one issue if the correct lube was used. You guys need to see if there is apratus dealer/reapir company close by and have some one that is familiar with apparatus inspect it and give you a opion on the condition to avoid guessing that the transmission is the issue,it also could be a the transfer case on the pump needs a flush and new lube done.
    Yeah, I suggested a problem with the tranny lube too...
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  15. #40
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    I am thinking a non department mechanic is the first step in deciding if the truck is needing replaced. It sounds like a maintenance issue over vehicle age issue. The department I use to run was a mess ,most trucks did not even operate! I had to bring in a outside mechanic to fix simple things to get the apparatus usable for front line duty. The only truck that ran when I took over would not pump pressure,simple fix,oiled and lubed the pressure relief valves and she was back in operation. I talk to my old log truck mechanic and he said on a truck use rarely to change the tranny fluid yearly.

  16. #41
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    Agreed. Something is wrong with that tranny- also may be clutch issues too.
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  17. #42
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    Not wanting to belabor the point, but if it has a FMC (ram/bean) pump, get a couple quotes
    on major pump work, not just price, but turnaround time. I think that should sway you.
    ?

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    I was once told by a remount shop to add 30 to 50 % to the quote/bid price. They said even with a detailed inspection that there are things they couldn't see and there would be problems that wasn't in the quote/bid. In a remount problems equals money.

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