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Thread: Fire Attack photo

  1. #201
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1364851]
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post

    And that's great, however we want to flow more water than an 1 3/4" with the initial line. We would also rather knock down the bulk of the fire from the safety of the exterior vs. the downright hostility of the interior.Guess we're just crazy like that.
    Yeah, it gets pretty hostile in there...hahaha!! You guys are nuts!!
    IAFF


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never changed my story. Enough said.
    You changed your story so many times even you don't know which one is true any more.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  3. #203
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1364851]
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post

    Given the frequency that we put hose on the ground, as well as the other stuff that we need to train on, I'm not all that unhappy with 90 seconds. A little faster would be nice but that would mean take something off the training schedule.
    My son can unload and deploy our 200 foot 2 inch bed faster than that by himself. I STRONGLY suggest you train more in hose bed deployment, which is a basic, entry level skill, EVERY firefighter should be proficient in.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Honestly, the fire that LAFire is dreaming up sounds much more interesting than the simple one in the photo.
    The point is that my VFD will be starting operations entry 4-5 minutes after that photo is taken as the majority of our member's arrive POV and will have to gear up, pack up and then get the handlines on the ground and in service.

    The fire in the photo will not be the same fire in 4-5 minutes.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #205
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    [QUOTE=snowball;1364876]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Yeah, it gets pretty hostile in there...hahaha!! You guys are nuts!!
    Ya, that's exactly what I said ... NOT.

    But explain to me why you would not want to reduce the dangers posed by interior operations by knocking down the fire from the exterior before entry?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #206
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1364897]
    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post

    But explain to me why you would not want to reduce the dangers posed by interior operations by knocking down the fire from the exterior before entry?
    I haven't seen anyone advocating an interior attack on the garage.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I haven't seen anyone advocating an interior attack on the garage.

    I haven't seen anyone advocating an interior attack on the garage.
    Wasn't referring speifically to the garage in this incident.

    It was in reference to SC's comment on our transistional attack operation in general a few posts ago, as well as Snowball's followup comment.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #208
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1364881]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    My son can unload and deploy our 200 foot 2 inch bed faster than that by himself. I STRONGLY suggest you train more in hose bed deployment, which is a basic, entry level skill, EVERY firefighter should be proficient in.
    Would I like it to be faster? Sure.

    Is it something that we are trying to improve on through increased deployments at drills? Yes.

    Is a few seconds something that I'm going to lose sleep over? No.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #209
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Wasn't referring speifically to the garage in this incident.

    It was in reference to SC's comment on our transistional attack operation in general a few posts ago, as well as Snowball's followup comment.
    And I, like you, was generalizing. It's confusing when one person generalizes while the rest are talking about a specific topic...isn't it.
    IAFF

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Would I like it to be faster? Sure.

    Is it something that we are trying to improve on through increased deployments at drills? Yes.

    Is a few seconds something that I'm going to lose sleep over? No.
    I used to be annoyed by your comments. Now I'm amused. You are exactly the same type of individual I met when there was a heavy component of volunteers in my old department.

    Claiming they were the equivalent of the professionals until something didn't go well or were given a task they didn't like. They fell back on, "we're just volunteers" for an excuse. When we would have extended incidents, many of them would just go home for the night and would never be seen until it was over. When asked about their absence, "well, I have a job in the morning, and I need my rest." They were as big if not bigger jokes than you.

    But they were first in line to ride in the parades to get all the applause and claim they were the equivalent of the professional staff.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-23-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I used to be annoyed by your comments. Now I'm amused. You are exactly the same type of individual I met when there was a heavy component of volunteers in my old department.

    Claiming they were the equivalent of the professionals until something didn't go well or were given a task they didn't like. They fell back on, "we're just volunteers" for an excuse. When we would have extended incidents, many of them would just go home for the night and would never be seen until it was over. When asked about their absence, "well, I have a job in the morning, and I need my rest." They were as big if not bigger jokes than you.

    But they were first in line to ride in the parades to get all the applause and claim they were the equivalent of the professional staff.
    I have no idea what my quote has to do with yours.

    The simple fact is, IMO, it's not especially critical that we get the line in service within a minute. I have no issue with it taking 30 more seconds given the infrequency that we deploy hose in time sensative situations.

    We actually did spend much of the night a couple of weeks ago pulling crosslays and setting them up for entry, as welll as a couple of other topics including advancing line interior. Again, was I 100% sataisfied at the end of the night with the time I took? No. But it was acceptable andif it went that like that at our next fire, I'll be happy.

    The fact is that in a volunteer department, meeting all the training needs can be very difficult within the 45-48 training nights per year. Does that mean that I accept sub-par performance? No. But that also means that I have to accept good, but not neccessarily profecient or exceptional performance in some performance areas, and an extra 15-30 seconds to pull hose is not a critical area to me.

    Are there critical areas to me? Sure. Donning gear in less than 2 minutes. Knowing how to call a mayday. Solid hose handling skills. Communication skills.

    Sometimes trqaining involves choices, and in some cases, compromises due to time restraints.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-23-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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  12. #212
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I used to be annoyed by your comments. Now I'm amused.
    I can't wait until I feel that way.
    Weruj1 likes this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Ya, that's exactly what I said ... NOT.

    But explain to me why you would not want to reduce the dangers posed by interior operations by knocking down the fire from the exterior before entry?
    Because lobbing water into windows for many fires is not a very efficient means of suppression, particularly for non-ground level floors. There can also be victim and salvage issues with that strategy.

    Additionally, if standard procedure for all building fires is to always knock it down from the outside first, what happens when you have a known rescue situation? With little to no experience working under hostile fire conditions, will your personnel be sufficiently prepared to attack the fire from the inside in order to protect the search efforts along with actually performing the search and rescue?

    Actual interior firefighting experience also serves to reduce the dangers of (future) interior operations.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ya, that's exactly what I said ... NOT.

    But explain to me why you would not want to reduce the dangers posed by interior operations by knocking down the fire from the exterior before entry?
    Based on the chance that someone may be in there, or another crew has made an entry from another side and are advancing toward the fire, I'd hate to be the guy that blows up their safe attack area by shoving a knob through the window. Been there, got the steam burns to prove it.

    But nobody was advocating an interior attack on the detatched garage in the photo in this thread. This small fire can be knocked down from the giant hole in the front, then mopped up internally, (pool chemicals included) after checking for extension to the residence.
    IAFF

  15. #215
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    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1364902]
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Would I like it to be faster? Sure.

    Then make it happen.

    Is it something that we are trying to improve on through increased deployments at drills? Yes.

    It should be a piece of cake to get this done. AND you don't need fancy props.
    Is a few seconds something that I'm going to lose sleep over? No.

    A few seconds on top of a few more seconds on top of a few more seconds surely can make the difference. Hell you don't lose sleep over civilians dying at a fire why would you lose sleep over your volly's inability to lay a hose line in a timely manner?
    More excuses and enabling from you LA.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Because lobbing water into windows for many fires is not a very efficient means of suppression, particularly for non-ground level floors. There can also be victim and salvage issues with that strategy.

    I disagree. yes, there can be issue victims but there can also be victim issues
    Additionally, if standard procedure for all building fires is to always knock it down from the outside first, what happens when you have a known rescue situation? With little to no experience working under hostile fire conditions, will your personnel be sufficiently prepared to attack the fire from the inside in order to protect the search efforts along with actually performing the search and rescue?

    Actual interior firefighting experience also serves to reduce the dangers of (future) interior operations.
    Policy is that the fire is initially attacked from the exterior by the 2 1/2" line irreagrdless of victim status. The best way to save a victim is to put the fire out, and the quickest way for us to do that is with an exterior attack with the 2 1/2" by the first arriving firefighter while the interior crew gears up, packs up gathers tools and deploys attack lines off the engine.

    The logic that to train members to operate in hostile fire conditions we allow the hostile fire conditions to persist, and not knock them down when we have the means to, such as with exterior linesmakes no sense. I will take very opportunity to knock down fire from the exterior to reduce the hazards to my people. I will not use these fires as a "training tool".

    Yes, the more experience we have performing any task, incluiding interior operations, the better we will be at it. However, I will take very opportunity to provide a lower risk enviroment to my members through the use of a exterior transistional fire attack.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #217
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no idea what my quote has to do with yours.
    That's a shocker.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We actually did spend much of the night a couple of weeks ago pulling crosslays and setting them up for entry, as welll as a couple of other topics including advancing line interior. Again, was I 100% sataisfied at the end of the night with the time I took? No. But it was acceptable andif it went that like that at our next fire, I'll be happy.
    Which means exactly nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is that in a volunteer department, meeting all the training needs can be very difficult within the 45-48 training nights per year. Does that mean that I accept sub-par performance? No. But that also means that I have to accept good, but not neccessarily profecient or exceptional performance in some performance areas, and an extra 15-30 seconds to pull hose is not a critical area to me.
    The rationalizations for mediocrity continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Are there critical areas to me? Sure. Donning gear in less than 2 minutes. Knowing how to call a mayday. Solid hose handling skills. Communication skills.

    Sometimes trqaining involves choices, and in some cases, compromises due to time restraints.
    Rookies in our academy were dismissed for not being able to don gear less than 60s. Your norm is the lower standard.

    No surprises. Please continue to remind us of how pathetic you and your FD are as an example.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  18. #218
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    Rookies in our academy were dismissed for not being able to don gear less than 60s. Your norm is the lower standard.

    No surprises. Please continue to remind us of how pathetic you and your FD are as an example.

    And my volunteer personnel are not expected to perform at the level of a career member who has been through a 16 week academy 5 days a week.

    Nor should they.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #219
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Policy is that the fire is initially attacked from the exterior by the 2 1/2" line irreagrdless of victim status. The best way to save a victim is to put the fire out, and the quickest way for us to do that is with an exterior attack with the 2 1/2" by the first arriving firefighter while the interior crew gears up, packs up gathers tools and deploys attack lines off the engine.

    So every structure fire is hit for the outside with a 2 1/2 before entry is made? Are you F***ing kidding me?

    The best way to put out some fires out is to go inside and put about 5 gallons of water on them with a 1 1/2, 1 3/4, or 2 inch line. Not wash the contents of the room into the hall and cause thousands of dollars of water damage. Although if you write off the house and burn it down the water damage doesn't show now does it? Of course there will be times when a 2 1/2 is proper but NOT every fire from an exterior attack. God Almighty you simply can't be serious.

    The logic that to train members to operate in hostile fire conditions we allow the hostile fire conditions to persist, and not knock them down when we have the means to, such as with exterior linesmakes no sense. I will take very opportunity to knock down fire from the exterior to reduce the hazards to my people. I will not use these fires as a "training tool".

    Look genius, if you make entry into a structure with a single room and contents fire and stay at the door way you can extinguish the fire without entering the hostile environment. How do I know? I have done it DOZENS of times. Frankly, if you did thousands of dollars of water damage my insurance company would be up your AZZ for the unnecessary damage. AND YES, I would pursue it because your tactics suck.

    There are of course times when that exterior hit is perfectly right, but not EVERY fire. That is just another of your assinine Black and White rules that make no sense at all.


    Yes, the more experience we have performing any task, incluiding interior operations, the better we will be at it. However, I will take very opportunity to provide a lower risk enviroment to my members through the use of a exterior transistional fire attack.

    And again, that was NEVER meant to be used on every little piddly azz fire you come across. It was designed for fires that do not allow entry until the fire is knocked down. Now I realize a smoldering ashtray would prevent your entering, but that is NOT what the transtional attack is about.

    You don't want a lower risk environment, you want a no risk environment, no matter what the cost to the property owner, including their very lives.
    Just more ludicrous ramblings and excuses for not doing the job right.
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  20. #220
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Policy is that the fire is initially attacked from the exterior by the 2 1/2" line irreagrdless of victim status. The best way to save a victim is to put the fire out
    And the best way to steam-bathe a victim is to blow 250gpm through a window onto him or her, screwing up thermal layering and creating thermal currents that didn't exist before.

    Also, "irregardless" isn't a word.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
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