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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    80% of the country is protected by volunteers.
    20% of the country is protected by career firefighters.
    While 80% of the nation's cities are protected by volunteers. About 65% of the population (it's people that call 911 not dirt) are protected by professionals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And yes, I believe that each volunteer department should develop standards keeping in mind that they are being used to evaluate volunteer, non-compensated personnel.
    Heretofore to be known as the pathetic standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't believe that they need to be the same standards that are used to evaluate paid members who are trained, on the clock, as part of their full-time employment.
    Of course you believe that. It's too much work to be the equivalent of professionals you want to claim as your peers.

    As someone else noted, fire doesn't burn any differently in volunteer areas. Since you don't intend to do any firefighting, that doesn't matter to you.

    I bet you put on a good show when you're on parade. What type of wave do you use? Queen's wave Windshield wiper? Or do you just put on the "L" with your thumb and forefinger at right angles on your forehead?
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-25-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Please, for the love of God, stay out of Wisconsin. We have state standards that must be met in order to be a firefighter, a driver, an officer, an inspector, and an instructor. Guess what they don't say anywhere in them volunteer or career. Some are minimum standards some are more advanced.
    For certification testing purposes, yes, there is no difference. The standards for certification should be, and hopefully are, applied equally.

    For internal purposes, no, unless they are simply unalbe to perform the task or unable to perform it in a reasonable period of time. The department should have the final choice as how profecient they wish thier firefighters to be, not the state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Yes, because we all know fire burns much more kinder and gentler in areas protected by volunteer, non-compensated personnel....
    You really are a tool.
    No, but there are a lot fewer applicants for volunteer positions than career positions.

    The simple reality is that most VFDs don't have the option to pick the best of the best from a long list of applicants. They often have to take what is available.

    That being said, if a new member is not able to perform the a skill or set of skills in what the department deems a reasonable time frame, or worst case, they are simply unable to perform firefighting skills, they should not be allowed to operate on the fireground in a firefighting role. In a perfect world, applicants would be beating down the doors to become volunteers, but that is simply not reality.

    To expect a VFD to have thier members meet the same standards as a career department is simply ridiculious. It is fair however, to expect them to meet reasonable standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, but there are a lot fewer applicants for volunteer positions than career positions.

    The simple reality is that most VFDs don't have the option to pick the best of the best from a long list of applicants. They often have to take what is available.

    That being said, if a new member is not able to perform the a skill or set of skills in what the department deems a reasonable time frame, or worst case, they are simply unable to perform firefighting skills, they should not be allowed to operate on the fireground in a firefighting role. In a perfect world, applicants would be beating down the doors to become volunteers, but that is simply not reality.
    I fully agree that personnel that aren't able to perform adequately should not be operating on the fireground in an actual firefighting role. However, in my experience (in one of the states with the largest number of volunteers) there are far, far too many volunteer personnel allowed to operate on the fireground well beyond what is appropriate for their training and abilities.

    To expect a VFD to have thier members meet the same standards as a career department is simply ridiculious. It is fair however, to expect them to meet reasonable standards.
    We've talked about this before also and it appears that you still don't get it. No surprise there.

    You still seem to be hung up on the notion that we are expecting volunteers to trained in the same fashion and be held to the same standards applicable for a career recruit to graduate from a Fire Academy. We are not saying that in any way shape or form.

    What we are saying is that ALL firefighters should be certified to a common minimum baseline standard in addition to any training required for local needs. Currently that standard would be FF1 and despite what you think, it IS a "reasonable standard".

    Now, I don't specifically have a problem with some sort of "tiered" standard to accommodate the needs of the volunteer service since not everybody can or should be a "full-duty firefighter", but EVERY person responding and operating on a call should be credentialed by a third party for the role that they will be performing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    For certification testing purposes, yes, there is no difference. The standards for certification should be, and hopefully are, applied equally.

    For internal purposes, no, unless they are simply unalbe to perform the task or unable to perform it in a reasonable period of time. The department should have the final choice as how profecient they wish thier firefighters to be, not the state.
    In order to oprerate interior in Wisconsin you have to have a minimum of the 60 hour entry level class, or equivalent APPROVED by thee state trainingprogram. You don't get to freelance. Nice try at bending my words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    For certification testing purposes, yes, there is no difference. The standards for certification should be, and hopefully are, applied equally.

    For internal purposes, no, unless they are simply unalbe to perform the task or unable to perform it in a reasonable period of time. The department should have the final choice as how profecient they wish thier firefighters to be, not the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, but there are a lot fewer applicants for volunteer positions than career positions.

    The simple reality is that most VFDs don't have the option to pick the best of the best from a long list of applicants. They often have to take what is available.

    That being said, if a new member is not able to perform the a skill or set of skills in what the department deems a reasonable time frame, or worst case, they are simply unable to perform firefighting skills, they should not be allowed to operate on the fireground in a firefighting role. In a perfect world, applicants would be beating down the doors to become volunteers, but that is simply not reality.

    To expect a VFD to have thier members meet the same standards as a career department is simply ridiculious. It is fair however, to expect them to meet reasonable standards.
    The excuses continue.

    I have no problem with VFD's accepting mediocrity and the pathetic nature of their respective departments. Where I have a problem is when volunteers try to compare themselves to professionals. Which is what the vollies would constantly do in my old department. It was an outright lie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    In order to oprerate interior in Wisconsin you have to have a minimum of the 60 hour entry level class, or equivalent APPROVED by thee state trainingprogram. You don't get to freelance. Nice try at bending my words.
    I realize that there are states that don't require FFI, but do require a class of a shorter duration.

    I wasn't trying to bend anything that you were saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The excuses continue.

    I have no problem with VFD's accepting mediocrity and the pathetic nature of their respective departments. Where I have a problem is when volunteers try to compare themselves to professionals. Which is what the vollies would constantly do in my old department. It was an outright lie.
    The above highlighted statement is one that causes me a problem too. The truth is there ARE some volunteer fire departments that are every bit as trained, skilled, and qualified as some career fire departments. They are very good volunteer firefighters and good volunteer fire departments out there that hold their members to a higher standard and demand more of them than merely being a warm body on the roster. They deserve our respect. In my travels the majority of volunteers that try to say they are the equals of career professional firefighters couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't do what career professionals do, including calling themselves professionals and claiming to be their equal. They don't do anything more than the bare minimum of training, despite opportunities, because they don't think they need it.

    No, whether paid or not, if you want to be my equal do what it takes to be my equal, instead of making whiny excuses why you are not considered my equal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I fully agree that personnel that aren't able to perform adequately should not be operating on the fireground in an actual firefighting role. However, in my experience (in one of the states with the largest number of volunteers) there are far, far too many volunteer personnel allowed to operate on the fireground well beyond what is appropriate for their training and abilities.

    Not going to comment on PA specifically, however, I think that while we agree in princpal that there are voluunteers who have been undertrained to operate on the firground, we would like disgree on your estimate of "far, far too many". Yes, there are those who are just plained untrained or undertrained, but I would also say that there are likely a large number who may be undertrained as compared to your view of the national standard (FFI), but are trained enough to operate within the limited capabilities of thier departments.



    We've talked about this before also and it appears that you still don't get it. No surprise there.

    No, I get it. You want a state enforced minimum standard envolving certifcation testing. I don't.

    You still seem to be hung up on the notion that we are expecting volunteers to trained in the same fashion and be held to the same standards applicable for a career recruit to graduate from a Fire Academy. We are not saying that in any way shape or form.

    What we are saying is that ALL firefighters should be certified to a common minimum baseline standard in addition to any training required for local needs. Currently that standard would be FF1 and despite what you think, it IS a "reasonable standard".

    We have discussed FFI before and likely will never agree on it being a "reasonable standard", especially since, at least in LA, it requires Haz-Mat Operations as a pre-testing certification requirement.

    I would have no issues with a state developing a 50 hour or less training option, which if the department chooses, could require thier members to have to complete both a written and manipulative test to pass. Notice that I said CHOOSE. I still beleive the each department should have the option to choose to decide how to train and internally "certify" thier personnel, therefore they would not be required by mandate to use the state cirriculum but would have the option to choose require thier members to take the class, or take the class and have to test out on the state level to operate on the fireground.

    I also would have no issue with the states distributing the basic lesson plans for the class as a training template with the option of inserting local SOPs, guidelines, operations, apparatus, tools and equipment in place of the generic materials supplied by the state. basic areas such as safety, fire behavior and releveant sections of building construction could be mandated to be taught according to the cirriculum.


    Now, I don't specifically have a problem with some sort of "tiered" standard to accommodate the needs of the volunteer service since not everybody can or should be a "full-duty firefighter", but EVERY person responding and operating on a call should be credentialed by a third party for the role that they will be performing.
    Again, we diasagree on third party certification, but we do agree on a tiered training system, including optional testing for certification, such as "Exterior Firefighter" and "Rural Interior Firefighter". I could even see a "Support" class with the same options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The above highlighted statement is one that causes me a problem too. The truth is there ARE some volunteer fire departments that are every bit as trained, skilled, and qualified as some career fire departments. They are very good volunteer firefighters and good volunteer fire departments out there that hold their members to a higher standard and demand more of them than merely being a warm body on the roster. They deserve our respect. In my travels the majority of volunteers that try to say they are the equals of career professional firefighters couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't do what career professionals do, including calling themselves professionals and claiming to be their equal. They don't do anything more than the bare minimum of training, despite opportunities, because they don't think they need it.

    No, whether paid or not, if you want to be my equal do what it takes to be my equal, instead of making whiny excuses why you are not considered my equal.
    We actually agree.

    The fact is the most volunteers who do not work as firefighter as thier FT gig, even though some of them may be very well trained, simply do not have the experience of most career members, unless they happen to run with an exceptionally busy VFD.

    It's simply a matter of volume and training opportunties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We actually agree.

    The fact is the most volunteers who do not work as firefighter as thier FT gig, even though some of them may be very well trained, simply do not have the experience of most career members, unless they happen to run with an exceptionally busy VFD.

    It's simply a matter of volume and training opportunties.
    I have no problem with VFD's accepting mediocrity and the pathetic nature of their respective departments. Where I have a problem is when volunteers try to compare themselves to professionals. Which is what the vollies would constantly do in my old department. It was an outright lie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We actually agree.

    The fact is the most volunteers who do not work as firefighter as thier FT gig, even though some of them may be very well trained, simply do not have the experience of most career members, unless they happen to run with an exceptionally busy VFD.

    It's simply a matter of volume and training opportunties.
    Being trained and proficient does not entirely rely on call volume, it relies on desire to want to be professional. I teach for the tech college and we sometimes get firefighters from otherr tech college districts or even out of state traveling in on their own dime to take our "Recruit Academy Class." Why? Because they believe it is a good class that will make them good firefighters and lead them toward being considered professional. When I was a newbie volunteer firefighter 37 years ago I went to every training class I could, whether my FD paid for it or not. Why? Because I wanted to be the best that I could be and I knew that, at that time anyways, that was not going to happen with just inhouse training. Effort needs to be expended to become the best you can be, whether that is being a volunteer firefighter, a carpenter, a truck driver, or any other profession. Those that rise only to mediocrity drag the entire profession down.
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    "It's the same old story
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    It's the same old story
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Effort needs to be expended to become the best you can be, whether that is being a volunteer firefighter, a carpenter, a truck driver, or any other profession. Those that rise only to mediocrity drag the entire profession down.
    Can I get an AMEN?? Those who attend college or trade school are wanting to get trained in their particular field of interest. Many go to school after working all day and paying for it themselves. Many of those have families and the commitments that go along with them.

    Yet we're to believe from the LAFE's of the world that isn't feasible for vollie firefighters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Being trained and proficient does not entirely rely on call volume, it relies on the desire to want to be professional. I teach for the tech college and we sometimes get firefighters from otherr tech college districts or even out of state traveling in on their own dime to take our "Recruit Academy Class." Why? Because they believe it is a good class that will make them good firefighters and lead them toward being considered professional. When I was a newbie volunteer firefighter 37 years ago I went to every training class I could, whether my FD paid for it or not. Why? Because I wanted to be the best that I could be and I knew that, at that time anyways, that was not going to happen with just inhouse training. Effort needs to be expended to become the best you can be, whether that is being a volunteer firefighter, a carpenter, a truck driver, or any other profession. Those that rise only to mediocrity drag the entire profession down.
    This is amusing in that we actually agree, in principal on this topic.

    I want my personnel to be as professional as they can. I want them to train hard on drill nights. And you can ask them, and they will tell you to a man that I do drive them hard.And if it's not right we talk about it and do it again. I want them to attend outside classes, especially if they are free and local. And I encourage them to travel to classes, financially permitting.

    All that being said,Ii understand that we are sharing thier time free time with thier family needs, hobbies and just plain wanting to kick back.

    I understand that there will be members that want to excel. That want to be at training every night, and will quite often take the opportuntity to attend outside training functions.These are the go-getters. But generally speaking they represent a small part of most fire departments.

    I also understand that there are folks that will attend training, but the fire department, while an important part of thier life, is not as big as part of those want to excel. They will attend training, and on occasion, they will carve out some time to attend an outside training or too every year. They will do a good job, but they do not strive to be the best, and see the fire department as an important part of thier lives, but certainly not the focul point of thier lives. I understand thier perspective. You likely call them mediocre, but they are, in many places, easily 50% or more of the fire department, and they are often the guys that respond day in and day out, and often don't embarass us in the community. Most of these guys are quite humble, and actually are quite skilled, but will never tell anyone that. they step up for the boring, rountine administrative tasks that are not exciting enough or not high profile enough for the go-getters. They are the ones, that in reality, often keep the fire department humming along both operationally and administratively. They may not have a stack of certs, or attend a boatload of classes, but they often know thier job, quite honestly, often better than the go-getters as they learn from experience and simply quietly perform. And they are happy in that role.

    The sad thing is these are the guys that you seem to b targeting with your drive for mandated certificaytion. And these are the gusy you will drive out of the fire service. The backbone of every VFD.

    And then there are the slackers. The hanger-oners. The ones that barely mak eor often don't make training requirements. They almost never take a class out of town, unless of course, it involves going someplace where there may be great partying, and the class is just an excuse to get there. These are the guys that think, they know the job, and will be first to tell somebody that, or wear the "We fight What You Fear" t-shirt and have agrand wotrth of lights on the 1998 Rord ranger, but in reality, they are a danger to anyone within 25' of them at any incident. They may be the ones with the stack of certs that don't think they need to train and have no idea where any of the equipment is on the trucks. Or they are the ones that need to be gone, but either the Chief doesn't have the balls to cut them loose, they are somebody's kids, or the department is so desperate for warm bodies, they remain as members. Yes, those are the one's that need to go.

    As far as my commitment to training .....

    I teach about half the training nights at my volunteer department and quite often at my combo department.

    I teach certification classes. I have taught two FFI classes and a FFII class here at my combo gig in the last 4 years. I am assisting with two FFI classes right now at other departments. I have taught multiple Awareness and Operations classes at my VFD, as well as assisted in other places. I teach quite frequently at other department's training nights. I help out with LSU FETI's drill nights. I have taught at multiple regional fire schools, burn conferences as well as multiple other resional and statewide venues, usually with no compensation including paying for my own fue, mealsl and lodging, as well as currently working for the NFA.

    That's not braggbng. That's just what I do.

    Just this year, I have attended at least 4 weekend schools and another one-day school. I attended Fire Investigator. I am scheduled to attend another weekend school next week, and will be attending a 3-day conference in June.

    My wife asks me, why, with 33 years in, I still attend all this training. The simple answer I tell her is thet "I have to".

    So I find all your comments about howIi don't care about training to be very amusing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Can I get an AMEN?? Those who attend college or trade school are wanting to get trained in their particular field of interest. Many go to school after working all day and paying for it themselves. Many of those have families and the commitments that go along with them.

    Yet we're to believe from the LAFE's of the world that isn't feasible for vollie firefighters.
    Profession.

    That's the key word.

    Volunteer firefighting is not a profession.

    It's something that people do in addition to thier 40-hour work week. or 50-hour work week. or thier 50-hour work week and 20-hour per week part-time job.

    Do I wat every member to be the best that they can? Sure. I want them to be the best they can for the public, but also for myself and the other members who have to volunteer and operate with them.

    But I fully understand that this is not what pays the bills. This is something ELSE that they do, and it's secondary to thier full-time job and needs of the family. the funny thing is most of those guys still make training requirements, but that's about all they can manage. To now demand more from them .. Well, that just won't work.

    That being said, are there members that have the time to train, but don't? Hell yes. But that's an issue of internal motivation and drive, and that needs to come from within.

    I beleive that every firefighter should be compenent. That being said, I also beleive that the level of competence should be determined by the fire department, not the state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Profession.

    That's the key word.

    Volunteer firefighting is not a profession.
    You can stop right there. I agree with you. The way you describe it and the way I saw it practiced it was more of a hobby for a group of folks looking for an excuse to get out of the house for a couple of hours.

    Your rationalizations for avoiding any type of actual firefighting only help reinforce my belief that this mindset was not unique to OC.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-26-2013 at 01:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You can stop right there. I agree with you. The way you describe it and the way I saw it practiced it was more of a hobby for a group of folks looking for an excuse to get out of the house for a couple of hours.

    Your rationalizations for avoiding any type of actual firefighting only help reinforce my belief that this mindset was not unique to OC.
    Actually, we still disagree.

    Nowhere did I state that most volunteers do not take the responsibility seriously.

    For most volunteers, while not a profession, it is also not a hobby.

    It is an a vocation. It is much more serious than a hobby, but it does not represent how they pay the bills. We need to understand that whenever we are talking about training requirements.

    Your group of volunteers sound like they underperformed because they were so poorly mismanaged by your career administration, and they were not mandated to meet training and participation requirements, unlike my current, and most of my previous VFDs.

    I'm sorry about that, but they do not represent most volunteers.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-26-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Chenzo likes this.
    IAFF

  21. #321
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    Miller337's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    Actually
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Actually
    That being said
    If you do the math
    Actually
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    That being said
    Actually
    According to
    In my state
    The fact of the matter is
    Not my concern
    That being said
    You are starting to go over to dark side Bro, you are starting to sound like Lose All Fires except you still kinda make sense.
    Last edited by Miller337; 04-26-2013 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Snowball forgot to edit his post like LA would.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually, we still disagree.

    Nowhere did I state that most volunteers do not take the responsibility seriously.
    You have. Just not directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    For most volunteers, while not a profession, it is also not a hobby.
    It isn't for any professionals. You description of what you believe firefighting should be is very much how folks describes their hobbies.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It is an a vocation. It is much more serious than a hobby, but it does not represent how they pay the bills. We need to understand that whenever we are talking about training requirements.
    No. A vocation connotes commitment. You don't have that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Your group of volunteers sound like they underperformed because they were so poorly mismanaged by your career administration, and they were not mandated to meet training and participation requirements, unlike my current, and most of my previous VFDs.
    They underperformed because they didn't want to be managed. When that was attempted, they complained and there was no accountability for their lack of performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sorry about that, but they do not represent most volunteers.
    They were just like you. Always looking for excuses to avoid doing any real work.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  23. #323
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    FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Profession.

    That's the key word.

    Volunteer firefighting is not a profession.

    The truth is we are not talking about whether volunteer firefighting is a profession, we are talking about behavior, attitude, and skill level. You do not have to be paid to be a professional firefighter. The sad part here is you don't get it and never will.

    It's something that people do in addition to thier 40-hour work week. or 50-hour work week. or thier 50-hour work week and 20-hour per week part-time job.

    Amazingly I know far more volunteer firefighters that are FF1, FF2, Fire Apparatus Driver Operator, Fire Officer 1, Fire Instructor 1, Inspector, or Haz-Mat Technicin certified, whether one or more of those listed. Most do it nights and weekends on their own time, around their jobs.

    Do I wat every member to be the best that they can? Sure. I want them to be the best they can for the public, but also for myself and the other members who have to volunteer and operate with them.

    Yet here once again you are making excuses for hy they can't do it. Nice contradiction.

    But I fully understand that this is not what pays the bills. This is something ELSE that they do, and it's secondary to thier full-time job and needs of the family. the funny thing is most of those guys still make training requirements, but that's about all they can manage. To now demand more from them .. Well, that just won't work.

    Because it isn't worth your trouble to spend time explaining the need and helping the classes happen. It is easy to accept the bare minimum and call that good enough. Funny thing is neither one of my volly FDs lost a single member when we upped training requirements.

    That being said, are there members that have the time to train, but don't? Hell yes. But that's an issue of internal motivation and drive, and that needs to come from within.

    Set the standard where ever you want. Most wil strive to be better, your acceptance of mediocrity destroys incentive.

    I beleive that every firefighter should be compenent. That being said, I also beleive that the level of competence should be determined by the fire department, not the state.

    Nonsense...
    Nothing more than more of the same tired old excuses and rationale for not demanding more than mediocrity.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #324
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    Bones42's Avatar
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    Collecting a paycheck doesn't make them professionals either.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    You are starting to go over to dark side Bro, you are starting to sound like Lose All Fires except you still kinda make sense.
    I wrote that while I was waiting for the shower to open up. We just got back from a 2 alarm residential and I was blowing bubbles from the heat I guess.....
    Last edited by snowball; 04-26-2013 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Happy now miller?
    IAFF

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