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Thread: Fire Attack photo

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Awww man. My cheesy community college doesn't even offer sh$tart courses, what they do offer is firefighter one and two courses which our members can do through the department to become.......................


    WAIT FOR IT.....................

    FIREFIGHTERS


    I guess they just offer sh$tart in Louisiana. If you decide to pursue a new artistic career, I would recommend that you go to the real masters.
    Firefighters by the standard that your department has chosen to set.

    The simple fact every department has the right to chose what standard they will use to determine who is a firefighter.

    No training at all. Required state course. In-house course, skill sheet or checklist. In-house computer based course. FFI. FFII. First Responder. EMT. Technical rescue training. Etc, Etc.

    The fact is that every department should have that right based on what they feel their members need to operate in their community based on their SOPs, operational philosophy (exterior/interior), buildings and occupancies, apparatus and equipment/tools.

    It simply should not be the role of the state, or any other agency to make that determination.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-23-2013 at 10:14 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So why is it with 2 different playing fields, you feel the need to interject your sub-par standards on to what us professionals have been doing for years? How does one operating at a much lower performance level and expectation feel they have the need to comment, judge, and openly criticize the tactics of my trained, skilled professional department? I know; Ego, party of 1, your table is ready....
    Stick to handing out coloring books and teaching people how to change their smoke detector batteries. Firefighting or fire ground command is definitely not a skill set you possess.
    Based on multiple threads on fh.com....there are 3 different playing fields. Paid, Volunteer, and then LAFire's play field.

    Please, please, please, do not lump those of us volunteer departments that are actually competent with LAFire's.
    FyredUp, Chenzo and Campman like this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #263
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...But it is no greater an issue on the volunteer side per capita than it has been on the career and seasonal wildland side.
    Wrong. And we have had this discussion on fh.com before. Search for it. The stats do not agree with you.


    And FF arson is a huge issue....regardless of pay scale. If the percentage is greater than 0....there is a problem.

    YOU have definitely never been involved with a FF arson case.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Please, please, please, do not lump those of us volunteer departments that are actually competent with LAFire's.
    I've been able to keep him separated from his own people. You have nothing to worry about.
    FyredUp and conrad427 like this.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I beleive I stated working fire in my previous posts.
    Maybe you did, maybe you didn't? I'm not going to take the time to look to see which it was. Regardless, a R&C fire showing from only one window or even no windows is still a "working fire", therefore even if you did say "working fire" you still DIDN'T mention anything about fire showing from 2 or more windows being the threshold for this mandatory "transitional attack".

    Sorry, try again.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Firefighters by the standard that your department has chosen to set.

    The simple fact every department has the right to chose what standard they will use to determine who is a firefighter.

    No training at all. Required state course. In-house course, skill sheet or checklist. In-house computer based course. FFI. FFII. First Responder. EMT. Technical rescue training. Etc, Etc.

    The fact is that every department should have that right based on what they feel their members need to operate in their community based on their SOPs, operational philosophy (exterior/interior), buildings and occupancies, apparatus and equipment/tools.

    It simply should not be the role of the state, or any other agency to make that determination.
    We've had this discussion before and you've been told that every department does have the ability and the obligation to determine the specific training needs of their department.

    It absolutely should be the role of the state or its designated agency to set a baseline minimum standard for firefighter training. A standard that every department takes and builds upon to meet their own local training needs. The states already set minimum standards for many aspects of other industries, why shouldn't the fire service be included?

  7. #267
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    This line is not designed to be operated at the window, as you believe. This line is designed to be operated at least 20-30' from the window. The intent of this attack is to get water on the fire rapidly from a fixed position. Because of the that, the line is operated from a distance by a member that has geared up but has not necessarily packed up.

    The line is designed to be operated from a fixed position using either a kneeling stance or the member sitting on a circled hoseline. This is not designed as amobile handline or an aggressive handline, as it is operated by a single member.

    Go to the first video on this website (the mobile home fire): http://countyfiretactics.com/videos/

    Though not my department, our policy is formed after thier's. You will see where the member is positioned and even though they have a pack, it is not required.

    That attack was actually made with an 1 3/4", so our 2 1/2" could even be further back and still have plenty of reach to penetrate the structure.

    Another good example is the 12th video down (untitled) where the member hits the building from at least 40-50' away, well out of the smoke, with the 2 1/2" line operating without an SCBA.

    Once again, please play again.

    Maybe next time you should ask before you jump to conclusions.
    Look super genius you posted this:

    That member on the nozzle of the 2 1/2" then bunkers out and is assigned elsewhere.
    Even a semi-iliterate wannabe like you has to know that bunkering put means putting on your turn-out gear. You know turn-out coat, pants, boots, hood helmet and gloves. It has nothing to do with putting on an scba. You plainly said your guys operated the hoseline THEN bunkers out. Meaning he operated the hoseline with no protective clothing on. Or did you realize how stupid you sounded and have t change what you said, YET AGAIN?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  8. #268
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have stated before, when your new recruits complete 16 continous weeks of training, 40 hours plus each week, without pay or compensation, will be more than happy to expect the same level of performance from any volunteer.

    Until then, we are on two very different playing fields.
    I can get brand new never had PPE or SCBA volunteers at the end of the 60 hour Entry Level Course getting fully bunkered out and on air in between under one minute and 1:30 consistently...Why are you so eager to accept mediocrity?
    Chenzo likes this.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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  9. #269
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Based on multiple threads on fh.com....there are 3 different playing fields. Paid, Volunteer, and then LAFire's play field.

    Please, please, please, do not lump those of us volunteer departments that are actually competent with LAFire's.
    Even if I didn't like you and you where competent, I wouldn't do such a thing. Hell, I would rather have a sister that's a Green Bay Packer groupie then do such a thing!!!!
    conrad427 likes this.
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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What mindset is that?

    That volunteers have limited time to train, compared to career members, who are paid to attend initial training and are paid to attend continuing training, and as such should be expected to meet targeted training standards specific to their operations, occupancies, apparatus and tasks?

    Our personnel are expected to meet realistic standards with our operations, not standards regarding operations that we likely never will be expected to perform.
    We pay our volunteers to attend training...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
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  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no interest in commenting on shipboard or high-rise firefighting as I have no training in such.

    However, if you want to discuss mobile home, barn and Main St USA firefighting, have at it. I likely have as much training in my specific area as any career member around, and that was before I was hired as a career.

    And that is true for many other volunteers.
    What good has any of the training done you?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have had this discussion before.

    When there is a national standard that truly addresses the needs of the rural and small community firefighter, as compared to the vanilla cover-all-the-bases hodge podge of FFI, I'll be more than happy to discuss it and maybe even support it. The fact is FFI in it's current form is to long for most volunteers and far too generic to be practical as a requirement for the volunteer fire service.

    There simply is too little relevance to the rural and small community firefighter in FFI. Eliminate the need for Operations level haz-mat certification to test, and develop a Rural FFI with more time spent on rural water operations, agricultural structural operations, brush fire operations and the like and less time on alarms, sprinklers, standpipes, Type I building operations and the like, and there is a good chance I'll be on board.

    I am fully into department developed rookie training programs, including FFI and FFII if the department leadership chooses that as it's standard and is aware of the consequences of that choice on recruiting and retention. I fully support department training standards, chosen by the department up to and including FFII if they wish, that mandates at least 75% drill attendance. I fully support reasonable outside yearly training requirements of at least 12-18 hours. I have no issue with aggressive training that sorts out the wannabes from those that truly care. But I will fight to the death unreasonable mandates being shoved down the throats of the volunteer fire service that will force departments out of business. It's that damn simple.

    I am not a big supporter of the NVFC myself.

    And as far as firefighter arson, let's not forget that probably the most prolific firefighter arsonist of all time was a career fire investigator named John Orr. Or let's not forget that some of the largest wildfires in this country were set by paid seasonal employees. So let's not go there about volunteer firefighters and arson. just remember, you brought it up, not me.
    Yet your FD REQUIRES what you consider useless for promotion.
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  13. #273
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    Under the brim of my brand new N5A New Yorker helmet(ducking under the table now!) it says that firefighting is an ULTRAHAZARDOUS, UNAVOIDABLY DANGEROUS activity. We all know that. LA, I don't understand how you can respond to a MVA and still desire to make firefighting an entirely safe endeavor. I don't know the stats on how many firefighters are killed on the highways compared to structure fire, but surround and drown with a victim inside(or not caring) is kind of like not extricating a victim on the highway because it is too dangerous. I understand where you are in your vol. dept. There are a lot of them around me. But how would you react to a new member who is not satisfied with surround and drown? Would you persuade them that it is too dangerous because we are not getting paid and we have to go to work tomorrow? That mentality is poison to a vol. fire company. In my experience it is healthy to not be satisfied with the way things are if you want to get better. I don't go inside a burning structure because I have a death wish, I go because conditions say it is an acceptable risk and even though no one is inside, a home is still worth a lot to the homeowners and the community. I do the job even though I don't have work comp. I was stupid enough to buy into the oath to protect life and property, and I am okay with that. Of course it is just a gut feeling but I get the feeling that you are keeping your guys down and selling them short because of all the "I am just a volunteer" excuses. I don't feel the "I am just a volunteer" mindset is fair to department or the community. A few on my department have said to the "I am just a volunteer" faction, GOD DA@#$#! We signed up to do a job, now lets do it!
    Last edited by conrad427; 04-24-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no interest in commenting on shipboard or high-rise firefighting as I have no training in such.

    However, if you want to discuss mobile home, barn and Main St USA firefighting, have at it. I likely have as much training in my specific area as any career member around, and that was before I was hired as a career.

    And that is true for many other volunteers.
    I doubt it. We had all of those types of fires in my old department, and weren't nearly as busy as some of our neighbors in LAFD or LA County. We have numerous cities with large amounts of mobile homes and Main St USA (whatever that is) fires. Many more in a month than you had in your career. We did interior attack on all of them and all went home. Something you claim you won't do for any number of reasons.

    We didn't do shipboard firefighting and very little high rise. So once again you claim faux expertise that isn't even close to that of a professional.

    I have training as well as experience. So your claims are nothing more than wasted bandwidth designed to do what, I don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no interest in commenting on shipboard or high-rise firefighting as I have no training in such.

    However, if you want to discuss mobile home, barn and Main St USA firefighting, have at it. I likely have as much training in my specific area as any career member around, and that was before I was hired as a career.

    And that is true for many other volunteers.
    And many other volunteers have far less training overall and actual experience fighting fires.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Wrong. And we have had this discussion on fh.com before. Search for it. The stats do not agree with you.


    And FF arson is a huge issue....regardless of pay scale. If the percentage is greater than 0....there is a problem.

    YOU have definitely never been involved with a FF arson case.
    I wasn't the one that brought up firefighter arson in ther same sentance as the NVFC .... Implying that it was soley a volunteer issue.

    Is it a problem? Yes. But it's a problem for career, seasonal wildland and volunteer.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    And many other volunteers have far less training overall and actual experience fighting fires.
    Agreed.

    I know of places where a volunteer firefighter could put 20 years in and easily go to less than 20 structure fires in that time.

    I also know of many career ARFF firefighters that could go to just a few fires in thier 20 years.

    I also know of places where volunteer firefighters colud easily go to 20 working structure fires in one year.

    My point is there are busy and slow career, combo and volunteer departments. There are well trained and poorly trained career, combo and volunteer departments. To judge someone purely on the basis of career and volunteer without knowing the quality of the departments training and run volume is foolish.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yet your FD REQUIRES what you consider useless for promotion.
    And again ... Tell me where I stated in that post that FFI was useless.

    FFI has little practical value on most rural and small community departments as the initial training requirement. Too generic. Too long. Not enough information regarding what most rural responds to most. We have had this discussion before, and i have clarified this point several times, yet you keep bringing it up twisting my words.

    FFI does have value as a secondary training tool once department specific rookie training has completed. It does have value for personal who may be tasked to supervise crews at incidents, will be taking more advanced firefighting or technical rescue training, will be assisting in the delivery of training, will be purchasing tools and equipment and will have a administrative or command role within the agency. IOt gives those members a broad perspective of the options available to the fire service and prepares them for higher levels of responsibility. None of that is needed for a new firefighter who simply has to know the basic operations of thier agency including thier procedures, SOPs, building types, tools and apparatus.

    Yes, my combo FD requires FFI for promotion. So does my VFD. In fact both of them encourage all members to be certified as FFI. We offer the classes or will pay for somebody to attend a class at aneighboring FD. My combo department awards points for acheiving FFI certification. It's important to both agencies, but not as a rookie class.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    We pay our volunteers to attend training...
    Most volunteer departments don't.

    So would your department pay the wages of a volunteer to attend a 40-hour per week 16-week resident fire academy like career members are paid to attend that training? Do you pay the normal wages of amember who goes away for a week to the NFA?

    I didn't think so.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Based on multiple threads on fh.com....there are 3 different playing fields. Paid, Volunteer, and then LAFire's play field.

    Please, please, please, do not lump those of us volunteer departments that are actually competent with LAFire's.
    Not going to comment on my VFD except to say that for the most part they are motivated, willing to train, and the majority of the time they perform well. That being said, experience is an issue as we get very few working incidents, as well as overall manpower for a very small portion of our incidents, which is common issue in small communities in this state.

    By the way, show me where I endorsed undertrained volunteer departments.That being said I acknowledge the reality of undertrained VFDs. I also realize that there will always be such organizations and making FFI a mandated training requirement for active firefighting will not change that. It will only increase the shortage of volunteers.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-24-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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