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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Collecting a paycheck doesn't make them professionals either.
    was that directed at me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I wrote that while I was waiting for the shower to open up. We just got back from a 2 alarm residential and I was blowing bubbles from the heat I guess.....
    Snot bubbles ?
    ?

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    Originally Posted by snowball
    I wrote that while I was waiting for the shower to open up. We just got back from a 2 alarm residential and I was blowing bubbles from the heat I guess....
    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Snot bubbles ?
    That means he was actually working the fire and not being a yardbreather.
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    So Chief,

    When are you going to tell us the outcome of this fire? Or is this just an anonymous internet picture?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So Chief,

    When are you going to tell us the outcome of this fire? Or is this just an anonymous internet picture?
    Winnah winnah chicken dinnah!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Snot bubbles ?
    Haha. Something had to carry the iso fluff out of my snot locker and eyeballs.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    was that directed at me?
    No. No one in particular. Just a statement of fact.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No, but there are a lot fewer applicants for volunteer positions than career positions.

    The simple reality is that most VFDs don't have the option to pick the best of the best from a long list of applicants. They often have to take what is available.

    That being said, if a new member is not able to perform the a skill or set of skills in what the department deems a reasonable time frame, or worst case, they are simply unable to perform firefighting skills, they should not be allowed to operate on the fireground in a firefighting role. In a perfect world, applicants would be beating down the doors to become volunteers, but that is simply not reality.

    To expect a VFD to have thier members meet the same standards as a career department is simply ridiculious. It is fair however, to expect them to meet reasonable standards.
    Or, you might wake up, and realize that by lowering the standards of your bucket brigade is the reason why no one wants to be part of it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I beleive that every firefighter should be compenent. That being said, I also beleive that the level of competence should be determined by the fire department, not the state.
    Contrary to what you seem to think, certification does not automatically equate to actual "competence" in terms of actual job performance. The state's role (in regards to certification) is more about establishing performance parameters than dictating "competence".

    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Collecting a paycheck doesn't make them professionals either.
    Technically it does.

    Giving a paycheck to a guy for playing football, baseball, hockey, etc. makes them a professional athlete. Although the paycheck being collected is a fair bit smaller, it makes them a professional firefighter.

    Professionalism on the other hand, does not come from that paycheck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Or, you might wake up, and realize that by lowering the standards of your bucket brigade is the reason why no one wants to be part of it?
    That post was a generalized statement, and was not specific to my VFD. However, it would apply.

    Funny thing is that over the past 2 years, we Have actually increased the training standards. And it has cost us a couple of members that simply did not have the time, and did not want to be relegated to support status. We also picked up a couple of new members so we stayed even.

    In fact, we have actually turned away potential members during that time because of issues that never would have been issues in the past.

    We are, in terms of membership, better off than most of the departments in the parish.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Contrary to what you seem to think, certification does not automatically equate to actual "competence" in terms of actual job performance. The state's role (in regards to certification) is more about establishing performance parameters than dictating "competence".

    And "performance standards" should be based on each department's operations, not a vanillia standard.

    As an example, what is "part of the job" at my combo department is not the same operations and response skills needed at my VFD. Yes, there is some overlap, but as an example vehicle extrication is considered a basic skill for Firefighter at my combo department while my VFD does not run extrication.


    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.
    In the end, I agree, it is the department's responsibility.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And "performance standards" should be based on each department's operations, not a vanillia standard.

    In the end, I agree, it is the department's responsibility.
    Of course you do, it allows you to not have to do any real firefighting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Of course you do, it allows you to not have to do any real firefighting.
    "Real" Firefighting?

    Performance standards developed by the department would train the members to do as much, or as little, "real" firefighting (as you call it) as the department felt was appropriate to their manpower levels, experience and response times.

    As far as the personal insults, if it helps you sleep at night, keep up the good work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "Real" Firefighting?

    Performance standards developed by the department would train the members to do as much, or as little, "real" firefighting (as you call it) as the department felt was appropriate to their manpower levels, experience and response times.

    As far as the personal insults, if it helps you sleep at night, keep up the good work.
    OK -im a simple minded guy, ya may have to help me out. Performace standards train the ffs to do as much or as LITTLE "real firefighting" as the dept feels appropiate? I understand not putting a green fireman into a situation over his training level, if its dangerous. But what your doubletalk sounded like an excuse to have a half assed department. Why not set high standards and work hard to attain them ?
    ?

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    Originally Posted by FireMedic049
    Contrary to what you seem to think, certification does not automatically equate to actual "competence" in terms of actual job performance. The state's role (in regards to certification) is more about establishing performance parameters than dictating "competence".

    And "performance standards" should be based on each department's operations, not a vanillia standard.

    As an example, what is "part of the job" at my combo department is not the same operations and response skills needed at my VFD. Yes, there is some overlap, but as an example vehicle extrication is considered a basic skill for Firefighter at my combo department while my VFD does not run extrication.


    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training. They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has. So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book. THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.


    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    In the end, I agree, it is the department's responsibility.
    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires. You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are? I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    OK -im a simple minded guy, ya may have to help me out. Performace standards train the ffs to do as much or as LITTLE "real firefighting" as the dept feels appropiate? I understand not putting a green fireman into a situation over his training level, if its dangerous. But what your doubletalk sounded like an excuse to have a half assed department. Why not set high standards and work hard to attain them ?
    You call it half-assed. Otiose are your words, not mine.

    There are fire departments out there a that are, and likely always will be defensive, exterior-oriented fire departments. That's a not me making excuses. That's the reality. There are factors such as funding, the manpower pool, apparatus, district size, and yes, leadership skills that affect how aggressive a department can be.

    I have no issues with a department recognizing this choosing to be a primarily exterior based fire department. None at all. And as such, if they don't feel that they as department, do not want to spend time spending their members to operate interior, then it should be their choice.

    The fact is the level of training a fire departments want to bring it's members to, should in the end, be determined by the fire department. If that is primarily non-interior, that's fine.

    For those of you in here that may be offended by the mindset, so be it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    Know your mutual aid. Plain and simple.

    Around here, in both my combo and volunteer departments, we are very well aware of the departments that can provide interior manpower and those that can't. Those that can't are used for tankers and water supply. It's not that complicated.

    My combo department will only send interior trained personnel if a department calls for manpower. If they call for tankers and water supply help, exterior only members are allowed to respond in that capacity. When we are asked by the state to deploy down south for hurricanes, we meet the FFI and Officer I requirements. In some cases, we will not meet the Driver-Operator requirement but they will be at least FFI.

    If they ask for a specific level of rescue training as part of the deployment package, we will strive to send them a crew that also has that training. If we can't, we contact Homeland Security and ask them if they still want us to deploy. We will often use one of the neighboring combo departments to fill out any boat or water rescue requests as they run that service for the parish.

    While my VFD does not deploy.

    As far as mutual aid, we will attempt to send only interior personnel to a manpower request. A general request or water supply request gets our support personnel in the role of apparatus operators.



    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training.

    Fully aware. So are our in-house rookie classes. They act as a step towards FFI/FFII, if that is the firefighter's choice. they act as step towards attending regional classes in LA and TX. And they act as a step towards specialty classes that do not require FFI.

    They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has.

    So are our rookie classes and rookie checksheets. Difference is that all of the material in that class, in the case of my VFD and the checksheet in the case of my combo department, is 100% applicable to our daily operations.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    And that's not my job. My job is train him for operations within MY department. We explain to them that one of the advantages is just as you described, and if that is something that is important to him/her we either teach the class of provide access to a class, and reward them at the end for passing the test.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    And that's great. I never said that I opposed higher standards if the department chooses to to that route. f you have a manpower pool that can support higher requirements, go for it. But if you have a manpower base that doesn't ....

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.

    Yes, I hate the loss of power and control to determine how, what and why new members will be taught. Yes, I hate wasting their time during rookie training on material that has no bearing to our operations. Yes, I hate making them study and learn material that has no use in my district just to pass a certification test.

    The fire department should be 100% responsible for determining what they will learn. If the fire department chooses FFI will be minimum, fine, but I will not stand by and see it shoved down our throats to in part, appease the unions who want to see fewer volunteers and more paid staff. That is the fundamental point that we disagree on.

    Rookie class is learn how to be a rookie firefighter. After they complete that step, I encourage them to take FFI AND FFII.


    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires.

    A knowledgeable officer knows exactly what their surrounding departments are capable of. if you didn't know that, you need to learn a little more about your area. As I said, i know exactly who can provide interior support and who can provide tanker and brush fire support in both my parishes. It's not that complicated.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    And as a department you have the right to tell a neighboring department that you will not respond into them because of training issues.

    I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.

    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "Real" Firefighting?
    Actually you put quotes around the wrong word. What you do because of your training and attitude towards being 100% safe should henceforth be referred to as "firewatching" while wearing a firefighters costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Performance standards developed by the department would train the members to do as much, or as little, "real" firefighting (as you call it) as the department felt was appropriate to their manpower levels, experience and response times.
    ZZZZZzzzzzz

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as the personal insults, if it helps you sleep at night, keep up the good work.
    Will do. Thanks for the support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call it half-assed. Otiose are your words, not mine.

    There are fire departments out there a that are, and likely always will be defensive, exterior-oriented fire departments. That's a not me making excuses. That's the reality. There are factors such as funding, the manpower pool, apparatus, district size, and yes, leadership skills that affect how aggressive a department can be.

    I have no issues with a department recognizing this choosing to be a primarily exterior based fire department. None at all. And as such, if they don't feel that they as department, do not want to spend time spending their members to operate interior, then it should be their choice.

    The fact is the level of training a fire departments want to bring it's members to, should in the end, be determined by the fire department. If that is primarily non-interior, that's fine.

    For those of you in here that may be offended by the mindset, so be it.
    But what you seem to be overlooking is the fact that ultimately, this ISN'T about the FD or its members, IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE WE SERVE! Maybe what's "just fine" as a level of service (or non-service) in the FD's opinion IS NOT "just fine" with the residents of their community?
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    Our small VFD had a reputation for saving basements. After a while the townsfolk decided that was okay because the fire leadership had actually convinced them that they did not have the training, manpower, time, and after all they were "only volunteers". It took quite a big effort to get the citizens to accept mediocrity. Fast forward to the current chief and now the people want an effort made to save the house because the Chief convinced them that we DID have the manpower, training, time and we were FIREFIGHTERS! We were in it for the people not the other way around! It takes a good BS artist to get the citizens to accept basement saving, but it can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    But what you seem to be overlooking is the fact that ultimately, this ISN'T about the FD or its members, IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE WE SERVE! Maybe what's "just fine" as a level of service (or non-service) in the FD's opinion IS NOT "just fine" with the residents of their community?
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Our small VFD had a reputation for saving basements. After a while the townsfolk decided that was okay because the fire leadership had actually convinced them that they did not have the training, manpower, time, and after all they were "only volunteers". It took quite a big effort to get the citizens to accept mediocrity. Fast forward to the current chief and now the people want an effort made to save the house because the Chief convinced them that we DID have the manpower, training, time and we were FIREFIGHTERS! We were in it for the people not the other way around! It takes a good BS artist to get the citizens to accept basement saving, but it can be done.

    And sometimes it's just the reality of the situation as dictated by the resources at hand.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    First of all , the general public is usually blissfully ignorant of the abilities of the FD unless its their house, or they lose a couple of block..Second , while resources do play a part,"want to" and pride can offset a lot of negatives in the resource catagory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And sometimes it's just the reality of the situation as dictated by the resources at hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    Thank you for continuing to admit that you embrace a pathetic level of fire service to your community.
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