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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.
    Oh, so you're in favor of willfully misleading the community about their fire protection?

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.
    Yes, that is certainly an option, but that requires the community to know they are unhappy with it and therein lies the problem.

    The public doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to distinguish between "good" and "bad" fire protection. I see it frequently in my region. There's a fire, fire trucks show up and squirt some water around and eventually the fire goes out and the "back slapping" starts amongst ourselves and the community "pats us on the back" too. All's good right?

    I've seen houses gutted by what started as a R&C fire because of the strategy and tactics used by their VFD.

    A few years ago my department responded to a reported fire in a neighboring community. They have a single engine and support unit VFD and rely on other VFDs for help with fires. Our one engine was added to this early morning call due to other units not staffing quickly. (Side note: Our engine is actually the next closest unit to this community and could beat their engine to most calls if dispatched at the same time, yet they don't utilize us.) We arrived as the 3rd unit to find no IC in place, a water supply established, attack lines stretched, personnel geared up, but nobody had actually gone inside the building yet. Our engine crew was the first to make entry on what was a flash fire in the dryer in the basement. There was a decent smoke condition, but there was not smoke pouring out of this house indicating a growing fire. Much of the small community probably wasn't aware that the incident occurred and since the house didn't burn down, the rest were probably "happy" with their VFD's efforts not knowing that their efforts actually had no bearing on the favorable outcome.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.
    While there is some truth to this, how many fire departments are truly honest with their community about what they can actually provide them in their time of need based on those available resources? I've seen very few do anything of the sorts.

    Another small VFD nearby has been having issues responding to their calls for at least several months, if they even respond at all. Membership has dropped off along with the other "issues" plaguing the volunteer fire service. A few weeks ago this situation kind of came to a head when they had a working fire across the street from their fire station and NOBODY from that VFD responded to the call. Based on the reaction to the incident by the public and that community's elected officials, that VFD never informed the community of their situation. If they had, maybe the community could've done something to fix that?

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    It's not about achieving a "level playing field". It's about honesty and accountability to the community. The public sees the building marked "fire department" with fire trucks sitting inside. They periodically see them with people in firefighter outfits around town. The reasonable conclusion is that they have a group of people that'll come mitigate their emergency in a competent fashion. After all, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...........

    Unfortunately, when it matters the most, the public may come to find out that they have a social club with fire trucks rather than an actual Fire Department with Firefighters.

    The residents of a small community will typically understand that they won't be getting the same level of services from their small VFD as the residents of a major city would get from their FD and will usually be ok with that. What they won't be ok with is finding out after the fact that their VFD lacks the ability to competently provide even basic services.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    First of all , the general public is usually blissfully ignorant of the abilities of the FD unless its their house, or they lose a couple of block..Second , while resources do play a part,"want to" and pride can offset a lot of negatives in the resource catagory.
    I disagree, especially in rural areas.

    As far as pride offsetting negatives, I fully agree with that statement. I have seen some very poor VFDs do a whole lot with very little because they have pride in their department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thank you for continuing to admit that you embrace a pathetic level of fire service to your community.
    Never said it was my VFD.

    However, as I stated we have significant challenges, especially in the way of manpower levels and response time to the northern half of our district, neither of which we can do a whole lot to change simply because of our demographics..
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    Know your mutual aid. Plain and simple.

    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    Around here, in both my combo and volunteer departments, we are very well aware of the departments that can provide interior manpower and those that can't. Those that can't are used for tankers and water supply. It's not that complicated.

    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    My combo department will only send interior trained personnel if a department calls for manpower. If they call for tankers and water supply help, exterior only members are allowed to respond in that capacity. When we are asked by the state to deploy down south for hurricanes, we meet the FFI and Officer I requirements. In some cases, we will not meet the Driver-Operator requirement but they will be at least FFI.

    Because interior trained personnel is all we have it is never an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    If they ask for a specific level of rescue training as part of the deployment package, we will strive to send them a crew that also has that training. If we can't, we contact Homeland Security and ask them if they still want us to deploy. We will often use one of the neighboring combo departments to fill out any boat or water rescue requests as they run that service for the parish.

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    While my VFD does not deploy.

    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    As far as mutual aid, we will attempt to send only interior personnel to a manpower request. A general request or water supply request gets our support personnel in the role of apparatus operators



    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training.

    Fully aware. So are our in-house rookie classes. They act as a step towards FFI/FFII, if that is the firefighter's choice. they act as step towards attending regional classes in LA and TX. And they act as a step towards specialty classes that do not require FFI.

    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though your combo FD requires it for promotion.

    They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has.

    So are our rookie classes and rookie checksheets. Difference is that all of the material in that class, in the case of my VFD and the checksheet in the case of my combo department, is 100% applicable to our daily operations.

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if you didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    And that's not my job. My job is train him for operations within MY department. We explain to them that one of the advantages is just as you described, and if that is something that is important to him/her we either teach the class of provide access to a class, and reward them at the end for passing the test.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    And that's great. I never said that I opposed higher standards if the department chooses to to that route. f you have a manpower pool that can support higher requirements, go for it. But if you have a manpower base that doesn't ....

    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.

    Yes, I hate the loss of power and control to determine how, what and why new members will be taught. Yes, I hate wasting their time during rookie training on material that has no bearing to our operations. Yes, I hate making them study and learn material that has no use in my district just to pass a certification test.

    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    The fire department should be 100% responsible for determining what they will learn. If the fire department chooses FFI will be minimum, fine, but I will not stand by and see it shoved down our throats to in part, appease the unions who want to see fewer volunteers and more paid staff. That is the fundamental point that we disagree on.

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.


    Rookie class is learn how to be a rookie firefighter. After they complete that step, I encourage them to take FFI AND FFII.


    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so everyone starts the same.

    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.


    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires.

    A knowledgeable officer knows exactly what their surrounding departments are capable of. if you didn't know that, you need to learn a little more about your area. As I said, i know exactly who can provide interior support and who can provide tanker and brush fire support in both my parishes. It's not that complicated.

    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    And as a department you have the right to tell a neighboring department that you will not respond into them because of training issues.

    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.


    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.


    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?
    You just don't get it and never will. You prefer excuses over moving to effect change.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-28-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said it was my VFD.

    However, as I stated we have significant challenges, especially in the way of manpower levels and response time to the northern half of our district, neither of which we can do a whole lot to change simply because of our demographics..
    I didn't say you said that about your VFD. You've made it clear via your posts on this and other thread.
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    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified? If we did that there we would be a pretty significant list of rural VFDs that would almost shut down?


    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    They often are larger communities than ours, which is why we require at least FFI for deployment. In fact, more often they have FFII, and the Officers have Officer I.


    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.


    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    See above. Most of the fire districts in our parish are happy with warm bodies of any type when they request MA. Sad, but true.


    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though you combo FD requires it for promotion.

    Never said that I do not support FFI/FFII. I have said it on many, many occasions that I do not support it as a rookie class. Is it really that complicated?

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if yu didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    Sounds similar to the proposal that I actually supported as a compromise several years ago at the Stet Firefighters Convention. It never made it out of legislative committee though.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Nope. No requirements. Did support a 50-hour class in the past? yes. Would I support it again? maybe, depending on the funding plan put forward with the proposal to deliver it.


    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Probably would not have been an issue on my old VFD in VT, but here it would be ... and by here I mean most rural VFDs in the state.


    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    .. And my combo department has enough FFI/II members, including volunteers, to meet the requirements when we do.

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    It works.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.

    If you really don't want to believe that unionized firefighters support FFI to make it more difficult to volunteer in the hope that some all volunteer departments will add career members or combo departments will go all career, so be it.

    I'm not hat naive.



    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.

    And the disadvantage is that there will be a lot of stuff taught that the new member may never see. Not an efficient use of time for a new firefighter operating on my FD, unless we want to extend the class so they can learn the procedure, techniques, tools and equipment that they might actually use tommarrow.


    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    Never said that we don't train members who are capable or wish to operate inside as interior members. Not once. But the reality is that in many small communities there just are not very many of them, and you support them with exterior folks. If only the exterior folks show for grandma, stuff happens..

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.

    I have heard your story before. It's nice. Proud of you. Never said we should not go interior of there is viable gain and the training, experiences, manpower and resources to do so. But I understand in many places that is simply not the case, and likely never will be the case. It's just the way that it is.

    My VFD isn't on of those places.



    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    You won't have to worry about that, will you?



    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I have never seen such a clause in a mutual aid agreement here.



    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.

    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?

    The city pays it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating on the fireground because they have to be interior-qualified? If we did that there we would be a pretty significant list of rural VFDs that would almost shut down?

    Great value? How many people do I need standing outside when the fire and the people needing rescue are inside? You see we run pumps with ONE pump operator and tenders usually with just a driveronce we arrive on scene. The other member in the tender would join the engine company and do whatever assignment the IC gave them, including masking up and going interior. Generally pump operators help change bottles, or ems does. Rehab is ems. So tell me what do I need 5 or 10 or 15 exterior guys for? That's right, I don't. I need guys to relieve those working inside for bottle changes and rehab. Not lawn ornaments. I will say when guys get older and want to slow down many of them turn to driving, but they all remain scba and interior qualified, it just may not be their first choice assignment.

    With virtually no standards, and no medical qualifications, what do you really have anyways?


    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    Great value? We would lose none.

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    They often are larger communities than ours, which is why we require at least FFI for deployment. In fact, more often they have FFII, and the Officers have Officer I.

    So once again the certification that you have called useless so many times is required for deployment. How ironic.

    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.

    Sure you do. For the scenario posted here you couldn't muster enugh interior people to check for extension. So which fairy tale shall we believe?

    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    See above. Most of the fire districts in our parish are happy with warm bodies of any type when they request MA. Sad, but true.

    And that tells the entire pathetic story of firefighting in your area. Acceptance of warm bodies and names on a roster to give the appearance of a fire department.

    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though you combo FD requires it for promotion.

    Never said that I do not support FFI/FFII. I have said it on many, many occasions that I do not support it as a rookie class. Is it really that complicated?

    Yes you have said it, time and time again. So sorry, I will not let you lie your way out of it here.

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if yu didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    Sounds similar to the proposal that I actually supported as a compromise several years ago at the Stet Firefighters Convention. It never made it out of legislative committee though.

    So what did you do besides wring your hands and slink off? Hvw yo revamped it and re-introduced it? Have ou sought out your politicians and tried to sway them? Have yone anything besides whine about the Union firefighters? I already know the answer is no. Bit then again doing nothing is always easier isn't it? And don't say it isn't YOUR job, because it most certainly is if you are unhappy with the status quo. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    More excuses and no real soluions other than to bury your head in the sand and change nothing.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Nope. No requirements. Did support a 50-hour class in the past? yes. Would I support it again? maybe, depending on the funding plan put forward with the proposal to deliver it.

    See this is where you are hysterical. Now you may not even support the plan you supported. What if it was simply a standard and you still taught it in house with a state supervised written and practical test at the end of the course? I know...you won't support that either.

    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Probably would not have been an issue on my old VFD in VT, but here it would be ... and by here I mean most rural VFDs in the state.

    Make that change to say more specifically, in YOUR area.

    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    .. And my combo department has enough FFI/II members, including volunteers, to meet the requirements when we do.

    Of course they do...do you send the maintenance men or just vollies?

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    It works.

    No, it gets by at the pathetically low standards that you place on the local fre service.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.

    If you really don't want to believe that unionized firefighters support FFI to make it more difficult to volunteer in the hope that some all volunteer departments will add career members or combo departments will go all career, so be it.

    I'm not hat naive.

    No you aren't that naive, but you are that ignorant. Prove it. Show me some proof of that because it is absolutely a bald faced lie here in Wisconsin.

    Fact is most volunteer/POC FDs in my tech collage district ALREADY MANDATE FF1 and some MANDATE FF2. Funny thing is they don't struggle for members and no Union anywhere had a damn thing to do with it. Some are now requirinf Certified Fire Apparatus Driver Operator and Certified Officer 1 for promotion. Yes Bobby being a driver is a promotion not where they hide people that won't or never would go interior.





    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.

    And the disadvantage is that there will be a lot of stuff taught that the new member may never see. Not an efficient use of time for a new firefighter operating on my FD, unless we want to extend the class so they can learn the procedure, techniques, tools and equipment that they might actually use tommarrow.

    Like what? Hose? Nozzles? Ladders? Axes? Pike poles? Fire? SCBA? What will they never see? Come on tell me? WHAT OF THOSE BASIC SKILLS WILL THEY NEVER SEE? Here is where you argument is completely and totally baseless and you just look like an argumentative azz.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    Never said that we don't train members who are capable or wish to operate inside as interior members. Not once. But the reality is that in many small communities there just are not very many of them, and you support them with exterior folks. If only the exterior folks show for grandma, stuff happens..

    Yes, stuff happens, your ever so glib "La la la people die and I don't care" attitude. Why are you even in the fire service if you don't give a flying F**K about the citizens? Yes, I have had people die at calls, both fire and ems, and sometimes there is nothing you can do to change the outcome, but other times aggressive, FAST action can save lives. Your model of look for all the reasons not to go inside is NOT normal, it is NOT the model of the fire service. It is your method of never getting a boo boo and the citizens pay the ultimate price in the end. Proper, quick efficient size-up saves lives and property. Which is why I became a firefighter in the first place. Why don't you just get a camera stand on the curb and be a fire buff? At least then you wouldn't be in the way at scenes or in the way of prgress.

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.

    I have heard your story before. It's nice. Proud of you. Never said we should not go interior of there is viable gain and the training, experiences, manpower and resources to do so. But I understand in many places that is simply not the case, and likely never will be the case. It's just the way that it is.

    Why NEVER? Is there a time warp there? Is it a looped time continuum there that refuses to allow change? Is it against Louisiana law for fire protection to improve? Is there a local conspiracy to burn down the town? WHY CAN'T POSITIVE CHANGE EVER OCCUR? You see this is where you sound like a complete numbskull and an enabler for believing that change simply will never occur. It may never occur while you are in the area since you keep patting them on the head and saying "yeah you guys suck, but it's okay, you don't need to ever change."

    My VFD isn't on of those places.


    Yet for this scenario you couldn't muster enough guys to knock down a garage fire and check inside the house for extension. Remind me again which version of the fairy tale to believe?

    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?


    You won't have to worry about that, will you?


    No but the poor SOB's that live there and expect the fire department to do something besides have a weiny roast on the smoldering remains of their house do, now don't they?

    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I have never seen such a clause in a mutual aid agreement here.


    You see LA that would require having standards and its clear you have none.

    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.

    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?

    The city pays it.

    In these economic times, when you **** and moan about the lack of financial support for your volly FDs you have no problem with the citizens of the city paying to come out and fight your fires with no reimbursement from the volly FDs. God man you are the epitomy of the word hypocrite.
    Just more of your nonsensical hypocritical babbling.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-28-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.
    In Wisconsin the class is free and testing costs $80.00.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.
    In LA, I would say that at least half of the FFI classes are delivered by fire department personnel by fire department instructors, either for just their agencies or for a group of departments. In our area there is generally no cost for these classes beyond the books and maybe a small admin fee, as the instructors provide their services as volunteers.

    The remaining portion is delivered by LSU Fire Training, generally as a regional delivery at a fire department. I'm not sure how much it is but the number of $250 per firefighter rattles around in my head.

    They do run fire academies down at the main campus in Baton Rouge, which includes FFII and D/O. I believe the cost for that, including room and possibly board, is about $3500 for 12 weeks. That is primarily for paid personnel.

    Testing fee here is $35.
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    Great value? How many people do I need standing outside when the fire and the people needing rescue are inside? You see we run pumps with ONE pump operator and tenders usually with just a driveronce we arrive on scene. The other member in the tender would join the engine company and do whatever assignment the IC gave them, including masking up and going interior. Generally pump operators help change bottles, or ems does. Rehab is ems. So tell me what do I need 5 or 10 or 15 exterior guys for? That's right, I don't. I need guys to relieve those working inside for bottle changes and rehab. Not lawn ornaments. I will say when guys get older and want to slow down many of them turn to driving, but they all remain scba and interior qualified, it just may not be their first choice assignment.

    With virtually no standards, and no medical qualifications, what do you really have anyways?

    So once your tanker driver goes interior, who drives the tanker? I guess I would prefer to use dedicated driver/operators who are not responsible for changing bottles, but that's just me. Funny thing is that our exterior people aren't lawn ornaments. Setting up fans. Filling and dumping tankers. Raising ladders. Footing ladders. Exterior handlines. Command functions. And we do our own rehab and medical monitering even though EMS is on scene.


    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    Great value? We would lose none.

    And many, many small rural VFDs would lose 50% or more of their fire departments, so yes, in this part of the state at least they have GREAT value.


    So once again the certification that you have called useless so many times is required for deployment. How ironic.

    It's required by NIMS and preferred by the state.


    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.

    Sure you do. For the scenario posted here you couldn't muster enugh interior people to check for extension. So which fairy tale shall we believe?

    I gave you the worst case if the fire occurs on the wrong day, and yes, that does happen now and then. I also gave you the typical scenario (first post of mine on the topic) with a response of 5. Funny thing is that is the exact response we had last week on a kitchen fire. Imagine that.


    And that tells the entire pathetic story of firefighting in your area. Acceptance of warm bodies and names on a roster to give the appearance of a fire department.

    There are places in my parish as well as all over north LA where providing bodies for fire operations is challenge. I would be willing to bet that we are not the only state where that is an issue.


    Yes you have said it, time and time again. So sorry, I will not let you lie your way out of it here.

    Useless for rookie training for rural and small community VFDs. Has value for promotional training in those departments. Not a new tune.


    So what did you do besides wring your hands and slink off? Hvw yo revamped it and re-introduced it? Have ou sought out your politicians and tried to sway them? Have yone anything besides whine about the Union firefighters? I already know the answer is no. Bit then again doing nothing is always easier isn't it? And don't say it isn't YOUR job, because it most certainly is if you are unhappy with the status quo. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

    I have no influence at the state level. never thought to become a player on the state level and quite honestly have no desire either. there are folks that like being on that stage and I'm perfectly happy to leave that kind of stuff to them. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a whole lot of interest in the volunteer fire service statewide to bring up the discussion of a minimum standard again. And quite frankly, I have no reason to believe that it would garner anymore political support than it did the last time, especially if the volunteer fire service isn't heavily behind it.


    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    More excuses and no real soluions other than to bury your head in the sand and change nothing.

    Again, not my role to be concerned about what happens on the state stage. As far as possibly supporting it, at this time I simply see no way that LSU Fire training would have the funding to initiate a new program. It would require instructors for train-the-train programs, admin support and instructors to deliver testing, and the staff, and the funding, simply isn't available for that. They have been laying off and not replacing staff that has left, so they are struggling to just deliver what they already have in place. There is no point is starting anew program such as this, even if the volunteer fire service was behind it, if there is no funding or staff to deliver it.

    LSU Fire Training is undergoing somewhat of a reorganization. They simply aren't in a place right now where something of this size could be pulled off.


    See this is where you are hysterical. Now you may not even support the plan you supported. What if it was simply a standard and you still taught it in house with a state supervised written and practical test at the end of the course? I know...you won't support that either.

    See above .. LSU simply isn't capable of supporting that type of program right now. They tried that exact formula for 1403 class a couple of years ago, and it didn't work. Not enough interest in the volunteer community. problems delivering the Train-the-trainer classes and problems in having enough instructors for testing and staying on budget.

    As far a still supporting it, maybe, though I have doubts about mandated testing.

    Even a program like that could have some significant impacts on rural VFDs and thier ability to respond.


    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Would have the effect here of reducing volunteers. People here just don't want to give up their outdoor time and would balk at additional training requirements.

    Of course they do...do you send the maintenance men or just vollies?

    We try to send just qualified volunteers if possible so that there will be minimum effect on the shift schedule and general day to day operations. When need be, we will send some of the paid staff, but that is only if we have to.

    Fact is most volunteer/POC FDs in my tech collage district ALREADY MANDATE FF1 and some MANDATE FF2. Funny thing is they don't struggle for members and no Union anywhere had a damn thing to do with it. Some are now requirinf Certified Fire Apparatus Driver Operator and Certified Officer 1 for promotion. Yes Bobby being a driver is a promotion not where they hide people that won't or never would go interior.

    I don't know of a VFD, or even a combo department, that requires FFI for it's volunteer personnel. Simply not done in this area. Encouraged? Yes, but not required.

    As I said, my combo department requires it for promotion, and my VFD is headed in that direction, which I have no issues at all with as it does provide good general knowledge.

    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.

    That's the problem .. it's generic. My rookies don't have any need to know about building types that are not in our district, tools that we don't carry, windows and doors we likely will never be required to force open and operations that we will likely never carry out. The rookies in my combo department need to know a hell of a lot more about tanker ops and brush fires than FFI provides, and they also need to know about vehicle extrication, foam and refinery operations before they take FFII. the same can be said about my volunteer department and some skills they need to know which are not covered in FFI. My rookies don't need generic training ... They need very specific training on our specific operations, buildings, tools and equipment.

    This we will never agree on. So let's just not discuss it anymore.

    Again, I'm training my members for my department, not the neighboring department or a department across the state should they move.



    Like what? Hose? Nozzles? Ladders? Axes? Pike poles? Fire? SCBA? What will they never see? Come on tell me? WHAT OF THOSE BASIC SKILLS WILL THEY NEVER SEE? Here is where you argument is completely and totally baseless and you just look like an argumentative azz.

    Sure, some of that stuff can be pulled, and is pulled from FFI and used in my rookie classes. Safety. Fire behavior. Applicable parts of building construction. But the other stuff .... They need to be taught what is applicable to our departments. As an example my combo department uses no smoothbores at all. not applicable to rookies. They need to be taught what tools, equipment and techniques they will use tomorrow in our operations. That's all they need to know at this point in their career.



    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    We will never agree on this either. there are and always will be departments where defensive operations is the standard. That is all they have the resources and training for, Grandma or no Grandma.

    And if that is the best they can do, that's fine with me.



    Yes, stuff happens, your ever so glib "La la la people die and I don't care" attitude. Why are you even in the fire service if you don't give a flying F**K about the citizens? Yes, I have had people die at calls, both fire and ems, and sometimes there is nothing you can do to change the outcome, but other times aggressive, FAST action can save lives. Your model of look for all the reasons not to go inside is NOT normal, it is NOT the model of the fire service. It is your method of never getting a boo boo and the citizens pay the ultimate price in the end. Proper, quick efficient size-up saves lives and property. Which is why I became a firefighter in the first place. Why don't you just get a camera stand on the curb and be a fire buff? At least then you wouldn't be in the way at scenes or in the way of prgress.

    Fact, is i don't disagree with you one bit. I would love to be able to know that I could go offensive all the time at my VFD. I would love to know that I would have the reasonable response time, manpower, experience and training all the time. But I don't. And never will. When everything comes together, if there is viable life and property to save, I'll have at it. But that occurs only some of the time, and that's the reality, so i accept that the fact that committing members when I don't have what I need will not change the outcome, and only puts them at greater risk of suffering a "boo-boo" that may keep them from work and providing for their families.

    We have already made progress at my VFD, but it takes time. We will never likely get to the level of my combo department, simply because of funding, career staffing and the volunteer pool. And that is perfectly OK.


    And I know that there are departments with fewer resources and manpower, and a lesser level of training and experience than mine. And yes, I understand their situations.

    Why NEVER? Is there a time warp there? Is it a looped time continuum there that refuses to allow change? Is it against Louisiana law for fire protection to improve? Is there a local conspiracy to burn down the town? WHY CAN'T POSITIVE CHANGE EVER OCCUR? You see this is where you sound like a complete numbskull and an enabler for believing that change simply will never occur. It may never occur while you are in the area since you keep patting them on the head and saying "yeah you guys suck, but it's okay, you don't need to ever change."

    Money. Funding. Volunteer base. Demographics. ya, I know, excuses. When you can expand the taxbase for these departments, they can fund change. When you can change the demographics so that the rural areas are not becoming increasingly older, you can have the volunteers for change. When there is more funding for LSU to deliver training, you can have much better training support.

    We have made changes at my VFD. Slightly increased training requirements. have increased the number of members with voluntary FFI. have changed the attack philosphy to deliver more water to the fire faster with an initial exterior stream. have seen alight budget increase and upgraded our tool inventory. Yes, changes have been made, but we are still, and likely always will be hampered by manpower and response times, and that realistically can't be greatly changed.

    You see, change often can't occur if the factors that are causing the problems don't change. And that is, and likely always will be the case throughout rural northern LA.


    Yet for this scenario you couldn't muster enough guys to knock down a garage fire and check inside the house for extension. Remind me again which version of the fairy tale to believe?

    See previous answer. First scenario I discussed was 5, which is typical. And yes, we can get only 1 or 2.


    In these economic times, when you **** and moan about the lack of financial support for your volly FDs you have no problem with the citizens of the city paying to come out and fight your fires with no reimbursement from the volly FDs. God man you are the epitomy of the word hypocrite.

    Funny thing is, the Chief of the neighboring city suggested that they be added to our first alarm.

    By the way, we drain thier resources 4 or 5 times a year. That is the sum total of all of our structure fires, smoke investigations and fire alarms. Ya, we're real bloodsuckers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you really don't want to believe that unionized firefighters support FFI to make it more difficult to volunteer in the hope that some all volunteer departments will add career members or combo departments will go all career, so be it.

    I'm not hat naive.
    I agree, you're not that naive. You're simply that ignorant and biased when it comes to anything union related.

    While there may be some that support a mandated minimum training standard like FF1 as you assert, they would represent a very small portion of the career fire service. Most career firefighters in large metro departments probably don't even give it much of a thought because 1) their co-workers are trained to at least that standard, even if they don't issue the official certification and 2) they will rarely, if ever work with volunteer departments and have no interest in conquering them either.

    For the career firefighters in smaller career departments and combo departments the support for a minimum training standard like FF1 is predominately about wanting to be assured that the people they may end up working along side are trained to a common standard and capable of doing the job.

    In my department, we had only full-time personnel up until about 8 years ago. A lot of the guys in the past were trained on the job, partially because we were large enough to do that, but not big enough to run a true fire academy on our own. About 12 years ago, the large metro department near us extended to us the opportunity to send new hires to their fire academy when they ran classes for their new recruits. We sent several new hires with no experience there for training with positive results.

    About 8 years ago, we added part-time firefighters to our department for the first time in our history. When this happened, the position of part-time firefighter became our entry-level position. As a small department, we need our new firefighters to be able to hit the ground running pretty much from day one. When you initial respond with only a handful of people to a fire, you simply can't safely "teach" someone with no experience how to do the job.

    As you know, sending part-time employees to a 12+ week long full-time fire academy in not very feasible. When we (the union) set up the rules & requirements regarding part-time firefighters in conjunction with the City officials, we insisted on applicants being FF1 certified in order to test. It was the entry-level certification recognized by the state for firefighting (even though not mandatory). We also knew that this requirement would yield new co-workers with a known minimum level of training, some experience and for the most part weed out the yard breathers and lawn jockeys among the numerous volunteers in our region that really wouldn't be of much operational value to us. So far it's worked out exactly like we suspected it would.

    Aside from that, we support it because we routinely work with some of the VFDs. When they come to help us, we want people that can do the job. When we go to help them, we want our people to be working along side firefighters trained to a known standard and not simply what they think is "good enough".

    I look at it this way. Anybody that gets on the truck when it goes out the door should be state certified for whatever role they play in the grand scheme of things. Cops have to be state certified. EMS has to be state certified. Fire should be too! If jobs are "created" because not enough volunteer personnel can achieve certification, so be it. However, it's not a reason why I support mandatory certification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Cops have to be state certified.
    Exactamundo. Even those who are reserve LEOs have to meet the same standards as professionals when it comes to certs and keeping their POST certs current. All done on their own time. In addition to that, they must perform a MINIMUM of 16 hours of service per month. That means actually doing something. Failure to meet any of those requirements and they are politely thanked for their service and released from the program.

    Believing that VFDs and their members are different is just a rationalization for them to avoid actually doing the work required.

    LAFE is typical of that mindset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.
    In my state, FF1 itself is a challenge certification. It is a written and practical test offered periodically at approved locations and costs around $100 or so.

    The primary prerequisite for testing is a 160ish hour 4-module class called "Essentials of Firefighting" which is basically the accepted entry-level training state-wide. The class is fairly readily available and offered at little to no cost. There are a few other recognized alternatives, but they are mainly formal fire academy recruit training programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I agree, you're not that naive. You're simply that ignorant and biased when it comes to anything union related.

    While there may be some that support a mandated minimum training standard like FF1 as you assert, they would represent a very small portion of the career fire service. Most career firefighters in large metro departments probably don't even give it much of a thought because 1) their co-workers are trained to at least that standard, even if they don't issue the official certification and 2) they will rarely, if ever work with volunteer departments and have no interest in conquering them either.

    For the career firefighters in smaller career departments and combo departments the support for a minimum training standard like FF1 is predominately about wanting to be assured that the people they may end up working along side are trained to a common standard and capable of doing the job.

    In my department, we had only full-time personnel up until about 8 years ago. A lot of the guys in the past were trained on the job, partially because we were large enough to do that, but not big enough to run a true fire academy on our own. About 12 years ago, the large metro department near us extended to us the opportunity to send new hires to their fire academy when they ran classes for their new recruits. We sent several new hires with no experience there for training with positive results.

    About 8 years ago, we added part-time firefighters to our department for the first time in our history. When this happened, the position of part-time firefighter became our entry-level position. As a small department, we need our new firefighters to be able to hit the ground running pretty much from day one. When you initial respond with only a handful of people to a fire, you simply can't safely "teach" someone with no experience how to do the job.

    As you know, sending part-time employees to a 12+ week long full-time fire academy in not very feasible. When we (the union) set up the rules & requirements regarding part-time firefighters in conjunction with the City officials, we insisted on applicants being FF1 certified in order to test. It was the entry-level certification recognized by the state for firefighting (even though not mandatory). We also knew that this requirement would yield new co-workers with a known minimum level of training, some experience and for the most part weed out the yard breathers and lawn jockeys among the numerous volunteers in our region that really wouldn't be of much operational value to us. So far it's worked out exactly like we suspected it would.

    Aside from that, we support it because we routinely work with some of the VFDs. When they come to help us, we want people that can do the job. When we go to help them, we want our people to be working along side firefighters trained to a known standard and not simply what they think is "good enough".

    I look at it this way. Anybody that gets on the truck when it goes out the door should be state certified for whatever role they play in the grand scheme of things. Cops have to be state certified. EMS has to be state certified. Fire should be too! If jobs are "created" because not enough volunteer personnel can achieve certification, so be it. However, it's not a reason why I support mandatory certification.
    Up until we were forced to become civil service, my combo department, like yours, hired simply from within.

    Given that we only have 8 full-time employees, we hire very infrequently, however, one of the requirements to apply is to have FFI in hand. That is in part why we encourage members to take certification classes, deliver the classes or pay for them and pay for FFI testing.

    And it has worked out well for us as well.

    As far as training, we at my combo department are aware of what our mutual aid departments provide, and have no need for certification their members to know that they are trained.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Great value? How many people do I need standing outside when the fire and the people needing rescue are inside? You see we run pumps with ONE pump operator and tenders usually with just a driveronce we arrive on scene. The other member in the tender would join the engine company and do whatever assignment the IC gave them, including masking up and going interior. Generally pump operators help change bottles, or ems does. Rehab is ems. So tell me what do I need 5 or 10 or 15 exterior guys for? That's right, I don't. I need guys to relieve those working inside for bottle changes and rehab. Not lawn ornaments. I will say when guys get older and want to slow down many of them turn to driving, but they all remain scba and interior qualified, it just may not be their first choice assignment.

    With virtually no standards, and no medical qualifications, what do you really have anyways?

    So once your tanker driver goes interior, who drives the tanker? I guess I would prefer to use dedicated driver/operators who are not responsible for changing bottles, but that's just me. Funny thing is that our exterior people aren't lawn ornaments. Setting up fans. Filling and dumping tankers. Raising ladders. Footing ladders. Exterior handlines. Command functions. And we do our own rehab and medical monitering even though EMS is on scene.

    Seriously are you this dense? Please note the bold areas of the following quote from above.

    You see we run pumps with ONE pump operator and tenders usually with just a driver once we arrive on scene. The other member in the tender would join the engine company and do whatever assignment the IC gave them, including masking up and going interior.
    Any fourth grader with basic reading comprehension would note that driver and OTHER member would mean 2 firefighters arrived on the tender. The driver stays with the tender and the other member joins up with the engine company. Reading, it's fundamental.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    Great value? We would lose none.

    And many, many small rural VFDs would lose 50% or more of their fire departments, so yes, in this part of the state at least they have GREAT value.

    Yet again, what are they really losing? Outside firefighters that most often save no one and nothing.

    So once again the certification that you have called useless so many times is required for deployment. How ironic.

    It's required by NIMS and preferred by the state.

    And because it is required you will do it. thanks for making my argument for state mandated training standards.

    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.

    Sure you do. For the scenario posted here you couldn't muster enugh interior people to check for extension. So which fairy tale shall we believe?


    I gave you the worst case if the fire occurs on the wrong day, and yes, that does happen now and then. I also gave you the typical scenario (first post of mine on the topic) with a response of 5. Funny thing is that is the exact response we had last week on a kitchen fire. Imagine that.


    So worst case scenario is house burns down everyone dies, best case scenario house burns down slower.

    And that tells the entire pathetic story of firefighting in your area. Acceptance of warm bodies and names on a roster to give the appearance of a fire department.

    There are places in my parish as well as all over north LA where providing bodies for fire operations is challenge. I would be willing to bet that we are not the only state where that is an issue.

    That shouldn't be a challenge it should be a sign that you will accept anything and anyone that can put on a turn out coat, regardless of how little true value they have as a firefighter.

    Yes you have said it, time and time again. So sorry, I will not let you lie your way out of it here.

    Useless for rookie training for rural and small community VFDs. Has value for promotional training in those departments. Not a new tune.

    Nope, being trained better than you like is not a negative, despite the fact that it wipes out your little dog and pony show.

    So what did you do besides wring your hands and slink off? Hvw yo revamped it and re-introduced it? Have ou sought out your politicians and tried to sway them? Have yone anything besides whine about the Union firefighters? I already know the answer is no. Bit then again doing nothing is always easier isn't it? And don't say it isn't YOUR job, because it most certainly is if you are unhappy with the status quo. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

    I have no influence at the state level. never thought to become a player on the state level and quite honestly have no desire either. there are folks that like being on that stage and I'm perfectly happy to leave that kind of stuff to them. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a whole lot of interest in the volunteer fire service statewide to bring up the discussion of a minimum standard again. And quite frankly, I have no reason to believe that it would garner anymore political support than it did the last time, especially if the volunteer fire service isn't heavily behind it.

    Excuses to do nothing. Nice job at staying consistent.

    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    More excuses and no real soluions other than to bury your head in the sand and change nothing.

    Again, not my role to be concerned about what happens on the state stage. As far as possibly supporting it, at this time I simply see no way that LSU Fire training would have the funding to initiate a new program. It would require instructors for train-the-train programs, admin support and instructors to deliver testing, and the staff, and the funding, simply isn't available for that. They have been laying off and not replacing staff that has left, so they are struggling to just deliver what they already have in place. There is no point is starting anew program such as this, even if the volunteer fire service was behind it, if there is no funding or staff to deliver it.

    LSU Fire Training is undergoing somewhat of a reorganization. They simply aren't in a place right now where something of this size could be pulled off.


    More blather...what you seemingly are best at.

    See this is where you are hysterical. Now you may not even support the plan you supported. What if it was simply a standard and you still taught it in house with a state supervised written and practical test at the end of the course? I know...you won't support that either.


    See above .. LSU simply isn't capable of supporting that type of program right now. They tried that exact formula for 1403 class a couple of years ago, and it didn't work. Not enough interest in the volunteer community. problems delivering the Train-the-trainer classes and problems in having enough instructors for testing and staying on budget.

    As far a still supporting it, maybe, though I have doubts about mandated testing.

    Even a program like that could have some significant impacts on rural VFDs and thier ability to respond.


    Yep, more excuses allowing enabling to maintain lackluster fire protection. Nice work...

    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Would have the effect here of reducing volunteers. People here just don't want to give up their outdoor time and would balk at additional training requirements.

    Theh they should find something to do. Fire departments should set training standards to meet the hazards of their area, not to keep barely trained lawn ornaments happy.

    Of course they do...do you send the maintenance men or just vollies?

    We try to send just qualified volunteers if possible so that there will be minimum effect on the shift schedule and general day to day operations. When need be, we will send some of the paid staff, but that is only if we have to.

    Because it's okay to expect the city to send their entire n duty crew to your volly area but not okay for your POC FD to send its paid guys anywhere. Yep, what's that word again? Oh Yeah! Hypocrisy.

    Fact is most volunteer/POC FDs in my tech collage district ALREADY MANDATE FF1 and some MANDATE FF2. Funny thing is they don't struggle for members and no Union anywhere had a damn thing to do with it. Some are now requiring Certified Fire Apparatus Driver Operator and Certified Officer 1 for promotion. Yes Bobby being a driver is a promotion not where they hide people that won't or never would go interior.

    I don't know of a VFD, or even a combo department, that requires FFI for it's volunteer personnel. Simply not done in this area. Encouraged? Yes, but not required.

    As I said, my combo department requires it for promotion, and my VFD is headed in that direction, which I have no issues at all with as it does provide good general knowledge.

    Flip flop...


    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.


    That's the problem .. it's generic. My rookies don't have any need to know about building types that are not in our district, tools that we don't carry, windows and doors we likely will never be required to force open and operations that we will likely never carry out. The rookies in my combo department need to know a hell of a lot more about tanker ops and brush fires than FFI provides, and they also need to know about vehicle extrication, foam and refinery operations before they take FFII. the same can be said about my volunteer department and some skills they need to know which are not covered in FFI. My rookies don't need generic training ... They need very specific training on our specific operations, buildings, tools and equipment.

    This we will never agree on. So let's just not discuss it anymore.

    Again, I'm training my members for my department, not the neighboring department or a department across the state should they move.


    Your responses here are beyond ridiculous and merit no real response.

    Like what? Hose? Nozzles? Ladders? Axes? Pike poles? Fire? SCBA? What will they never see? Come on tell me? WHAT OF THOSE BASIC SKILLS WILL THEY NEVER SEE? Here is where you argument is completely and totally baseless and you just look like an argumentative azz.


    Sure, some of that stuff can be pulled, and is pulled from FFI and used in my rookie classes. Safety. Fire behavior. Applicable parts of building construction. But the other stuff .... They need to be taught what is applicable to our departments. As an example my combo department uses no smoothbores at all. not applicable to rookies. They need to be taught what tools, equipment and techniques they will use tomorrow in our operations. That's all they need to know at this point in their career.


    AND if I come into your FD to teach those classes I will point out your tools and nozzles, even your hose loads. So, what's your next BS excuse?

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    We will never agree on this either. there are and always will be departments where defensive operations is the standard. That is all they have the resources and training for, Grandma or no Grandma.

    And if that is the best they can do, that's fine with me.


    Of course it is because you have clearly displayed, for all to see, your cold hearted callous "so what if gramma dies" attitude.

    Yes, stuff happens, your ever so glib "La la la people die and I don't care" attitude. Why are you even in the fire service if you don't give a flying F**K about the citizens? Yes, I have had people die at calls, both fire and ems, and sometimes there is nothing you can do to change the outcome, but other times aggressive, FAST action can save lives. Your model of look for all the reasons not to go inside is NOT normal, it is NOT the model of the fire service. It is your method of never getting a boo boo and the citizens pay the ultimate price in the end. Proper, quick efficient size-up saves lives and property. Which is why I became a firefighter in the first place. Why don't you just get a camera stand on the curb and be a fire buff? At least then you wouldn't be in the way at scenes or in the way of prgress.


    Fact, is i don't disagree with you one bit. I would love to be able to know that I could go offensive all the time at my VFD. I would love to know that I would have the reasonable response time, manpower, experience and training all the time. But I don't. And never will. When everything comes together, if there is viable life and property to save, I'll have at it. But that occurs only some of the time, and that's the reality, so i accept that the fact that committing members when I don't have what I need will not change the outcome, and only puts them at greater risk of suffering a "boo-boo" that may keep them from work and providing for their families.

    We have already made progress at my VFD, but it takes time. We will never likely get to the level of my combo department, simply because of funding, career staffing and the volunteer pool. And that is perfectly OK.


    Of course you don't disagree and that is the pitifully sad part that failure to improve that may lead to civilian deaths is 100% okay with you.

    And I know that there are departments with fewer resources and manpower, and a lesser level of training and experience than mine. And yes, I understand their situations.

    Understanding doesn't help them improve...

    Why NEVER? Is there a time warp there? Is it a looped time continuum there that refuses to allow change? Is it against Louisiana law for fire protection to improve? Is there a local conspiracy to burn down the town? WHY CAN'T POSITIVE CHANGE EVER OCCUR? You see this is where you sound like a complete numbskull and an enabler for believing that change simply will never occur. It may never occur while you are in the area since you keep patting them on the head and saying "yeah you guys suck, but it's okay, you don't need to ever change."

    Money. Funding. Volunteer base. Demographics. ya, I know, excuses. When you can expand the taxbase for these departments, they can fund change. When you can change the demographics so that the rural areas are not becoming increasingly older, you can have the volunteers for change. When there is more funding for LSU to deliver training, you can have much better training support.

    It takes no additional taxbase to take the equipment and manpower you have and strive to update and improve your training and skill level.

    We have made changes at my VFD. Slightly increased training requirements. have increased the number of members with voluntary FFI. have changed the attack philosphy to deliver more water to the fire faster with an initial exterior stream. have seen alight budget increase and upgraded our tool inventory. Yes, changes have been made, but we are still, and likely always will be hampered by manpower and response times, and that realistically can't be greatly changed.

    You see, change often can't occur if the factors that are causing the problems don't change. And that is, and likely always will be the case throughout rural northern LA.


    Then that is a pathetic statement about community service and the faliure to understand the duties and obligations that come with being called a firefighter.

    Yet for this scenario you couldn't muster enough guys to knock down a garage fire and check inside the house for extension. Remind me again which version of the fairy tale to believe?

    See previous answer. First scenario I discussed was 5, which is typical. And yes, we can get only 1 or 2.

    Then on those times you don't even have an engine company, let alone a fire department.

    In these economic times, when you **** and moan about the lack of financial support for your volly FDs you have no problem with the citizens of the city paying to come out and fight your fires with no reimbursement from the volly FDs. God man you are the epitomy of the word hypocrite.

    Funny thing is, the Chief of the neighboring city suggested that they be added to our first alarm.

    By the way, we drain thier resources 4 or 5 times a year. That is the sum total of all of our structure fires, smoke investigations and fire alarms. Ya, we're real bloodsuckers.


    I am sure he did. Maybe his plan is to eventually just take you over. Have you ever thought of that Mr Watch out for the Union. Seems like a great foot in the door. Especially when he can show that on x number of occasions when they arrived you didn't have enough people to do jack squat.

    Whether you suck blood once or 5 million times you are still a blood sucker.
    More blather, babble and excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Up until we were forced to become civil service, my combo department, like yours, hired simply from within.
    You really should get some help with your reading comprehension.

    My department has NEVER hired from within and I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. In order to hire from within you have to have a within to hire from. All new hires are selected from the Civil Service eligibility test for the FD. Prior to 8 years ago, new hires were full-time employees. Now new hires are part-time employees. Our part-time firefighters are not "fill ins". They are assigned to a shift and scheduled to work just like the full-time firefighters, but don't work more than 36 hours in a week. Our turnover rate is pretty low and so far none of our part-timers have become full-time. That will change over the summer when a retirement will happen. When that occurs it won't be a case of "hiring from within", it will be a promotion to full-time status since the person is already an employee of the fire department.

    Given that we only have 8 full-time employees, we hire very infrequently, however, one of the requirements to apply is to have FFI in hand. That is in part why we encourage members to take certification classes, deliver the classes or pay for them and pay for FFI testing.

    And it has worked out well for us as well.
    I'm glad that it is working for you, but we aren't talking about the same thing. Your department actively provides access to training to your volunteers in order to prepare them to be eligible to apply for a position. We now simply require our applicants to already possess the certification in order to apply for a position So while both may be working, it's not for the same reason.

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    I am sure he did. Maybe his plan is to eventually just take you over. Have you ever thought of that Mr Watch out for the Union. Seems like a great foot in the door. Especially when he can show that on x number of occasions when they arrived you didn't have enough people to do jack squat.

    Whether you suck blood once or 5 million times you are still a blood sucker.


    No worries about that.

    Since it's a municipality, if they were to annex a fire district, it would have to run it under contract and would get an automatic rating of 8, which is twice our current rating of a 4.

    In addition, the water supply issues would lower the cities rating as they currently are served by a very good water system throughout the city.

    And the members are not union.

    Sorry to disappoint you.

    As far as the rest of your previous post, you are the one that simply does not get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I am sure he did. Maybe his plan is to eventually just take you over. Have you ever thought of that Mr Watch out for the Union. Seems like a great foot in the door. Especially when he can show that on x number of occasions when they arrived you didn't have enough people to do jack squat.

    Whether you suck blood once or 5 million times you are still a blood sucker.


    No worries about that.

    Since it's a municipality, if they were to annex a fire district, it would have to run it under contract and would get an automatic rating of 8, which is twice our current rating of a 4.

    Your volly FD has a rating of 4? BULL SCHIDT! With your manpower issues alone there is no way you have a rating of 4.

    In addition, the water supply issues would lower the cities rating as they currently are served by a very good water system throughout the city.

    Why would annexing your volly FD's area affect the city rating? They would have a split rating like many city/rural combo FDs do. I know one that has a 3 in town, and rural ratings, depending on location from 6 to 9.

    And the members are not union.

    Not relevant to the chief maybe playing your volly FD and you for suckers to get a foot in the door for expansion.

    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Not disappointed at all, in fact I am chuckling at the possibility that you are being set up by this chief.

    As far as the rest of your previous post, you are the one that simply does not get it.


    I get it completely, you accept mediocrity and blame everything but the truth for its continuing.
    Nice try, too bad it is just more nonsense.
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    Sooo... We fought a structure fire today... 4 guys on the first engine... Only crew on scene for the first 10-15 minutes of the fire.... House is still standing... Homeowner was appreciative that we saved what we did because a lot of pictures and personal effects were saved.... No one got hurt... The fire went out...

    Pretty sure that qualifies as low manpower...

    Just sayin.....
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Sooo... We fought a structure fire today... 4 guys on the first engine... Only crew on scene for the first 10-15 minutes of the fire.... House is still standing... Homeowner was appreciative that we saved what we did because a lot of pictures and personal effects were saved.... No one got hurt... The fire went out...

    Pretty sure that qualifies as low manpower...

    Just sayin.....
    OH MY GOD! How did you ever fill the IC position, the Safety Officer, EMS sector chief, Rehab? Oh, that's right, you actually went to work fighting fire and saving someone's house instead of looking for excuses not to.

    The only thing that ****es me off is you **** knockers waited until I went to work to once again have an actual working fire. DAMN IT!!
    Chenzo likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    OH MY GOD! How did you ever fill the IC position, the Safety Officer, EMS sector chief, Rehab? Oh, that's right, you actually went to work fighting fire and saving someone's house instead of looking for excuses not to.

    The only thing that ****es me off is you **** knockers waited until I went to work to once again have an actual working fire. DAMN IT!!
    IC was on the nozzle, Safety was running the pump, and rehab is for quitters lol.

    It's not my fault you "pick" the bad days to have to work.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    IC was on the nozzle, Safety was running the pump, and rehab is for quitters lol.

    It's not my fault you "pick" the bad days to have to work.
    Oh well...
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    Since it's a municipality, if they were to annex a fire district, it would have to run it under contract and would get an automatic rating of 8, which is twice our current rating of a 4.

    Your volly FD has a rating of 4? BULL SCHIDT! With your manpower issues alone there is no way you have a rating of 4.

    Last time we were rated we had a lot more bodies on the roster. Most of it was deadwood but they were still names.

    A couple of years ago the ex-Chief decided to get rid of the deadwood. That is why our actual numbers are much lower now.

    We also had a tanker that we now longer have.

    This is our rating year. We will likely take a hit.


    In addition, the water supply issues would lower the cities rating as they currently are served by a very good water system throughout the city.

    We only have a water system in a very small part of our district (less than 10%).


    Why would annexing your volly FD's area affect the city rating? They would have a split rating like many city/rural combo FDs do. I know one that has a 3 in town, and rural ratings, depending on location from 6 to 9.

    The rating system here in LA got rid of split ratings a few years ago.


    Not relevant to the chief maybe playing your volly FD and you for suckers to get a foot in the door for expansion.

    The city would have no interest in adding the 100 miles that we cover. First of all, the area is rural and there is no way the city could bring in enough income to provide services. For that reason alone, the city residents would not go for it. Secondly, the residents of our area would not go for being in the city.

    The reason that he told our Chief that he would come in first alarm was to repay us for responding into the city, which we do very little of due to their manpower, and it would give his guys a couple more fires worth of experience per year. They already cover the bottom 1/2 of the parish's vehicle extrication needs, including ours.


    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Not disappointed at all, in fact I am chuckling at the possibility that you are being set up by this chief.

    As far as the rest of your previous post, you are the one that simply does not get it.

    I get it completely, you accept mediocrity and blame everything but the truth for its continuing.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #375
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    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    IC was on the nozzle, Safety was running the pump, and rehab is for quitters lol.

    It's not my fault you "pick" the bad days to have to work.

    So you consider that safe?

    IC on the nozzle... I'm sure he was able to keep track of the complete scene from there.

    Safety tied to the pump panel.

    No rapid intervention capability.

    Ya, sounds like a good idea to me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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