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  1. #341
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FireMedic049
    Contrary to what you seem to think, certification does not automatically equate to actual "competence" in terms of actual job performance. The state's role (in regards to certification) is more about establishing performance parameters than dictating "competence".

    And "performance standards" should be based on each department's operations, not a vanillia standard.

    As an example, what is "part of the job" at my combo department is not the same operations and response skills needed at my VFD. Yes, there is some overlap, but as an example vehicle extrication is considered a basic skill for Firefighter at my combo department while my VFD does not run extrication.


    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training. They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has. So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book. THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.


    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    In the end, I agree, it is the department's responsibility.
    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires. You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are? I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    OK -im a simple minded guy, ya may have to help me out. Performace standards train the ffs to do as much or as LITTLE "real firefighting" as the dept feels appropiate? I understand not putting a green fireman into a situation over his training level, if its dangerous. But what your doubletalk sounded like an excuse to have a half assed department. Why not set high standards and work hard to attain them ?
    You call it half-assed. Otiose are your words, not mine.

    There are fire departments out there a that are, and likely always will be defensive, exterior-oriented fire departments. That's a not me making excuses. That's the reality. There are factors such as funding, the manpower pool, apparatus, district size, and yes, leadership skills that affect how aggressive a department can be.

    I have no issues with a department recognizing this choosing to be a primarily exterior based fire department. None at all. And as such, if they don't feel that they as department, do not want to spend time spending their members to operate interior, then it should be their choice.

    The fact is the level of training a fire departments want to bring it's members to, should in the end, be determined by the fire department. If that is primarily non-interior, that's fine.

    For those of you in here that may be offended by the mindset, so be it.
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    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    Know your mutual aid. Plain and simple.

    Around here, in both my combo and volunteer departments, we are very well aware of the departments that can provide interior manpower and those that can't. Those that can't are used for tankers and water supply. It's not that complicated.

    My combo department will only send interior trained personnel if a department calls for manpower. If they call for tankers and water supply help, exterior only members are allowed to respond in that capacity. When we are asked by the state to deploy down south for hurricanes, we meet the FFI and Officer I requirements. In some cases, we will not meet the Driver-Operator requirement but they will be at least FFI.

    If they ask for a specific level of rescue training as part of the deployment package, we will strive to send them a crew that also has that training. If we can't, we contact Homeland Security and ask them if they still want us to deploy. We will often use one of the neighboring combo departments to fill out any boat or water rescue requests as they run that service for the parish.

    While my VFD does not deploy.

    As far as mutual aid, we will attempt to send only interior personnel to a manpower request. A general request or water supply request gets our support personnel in the role of apparatus operators.



    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training.

    Fully aware. So are our in-house rookie classes. They act as a step towards FFI/FFII, if that is the firefighter's choice. they act as step towards attending regional classes in LA and TX. And they act as a step towards specialty classes that do not require FFI.

    They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has.

    So are our rookie classes and rookie checksheets. Difference is that all of the material in that class, in the case of my VFD and the checksheet in the case of my combo department, is 100% applicable to our daily operations.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    And that's not my job. My job is train him for operations within MY department. We explain to them that one of the advantages is just as you described, and if that is something that is important to him/her we either teach the class of provide access to a class, and reward them at the end for passing the test.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    And that's great. I never said that I opposed higher standards if the department chooses to to that route. f you have a manpower pool that can support higher requirements, go for it. But if you have a manpower base that doesn't ....

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.

    Yes, I hate the loss of power and control to determine how, what and why new members will be taught. Yes, I hate wasting their time during rookie training on material that has no bearing to our operations. Yes, I hate making them study and learn material that has no use in my district just to pass a certification test.

    The fire department should be 100% responsible for determining what they will learn. If the fire department chooses FFI will be minimum, fine, but I will not stand by and see it shoved down our throats to in part, appease the unions who want to see fewer volunteers and more paid staff. That is the fundamental point that we disagree on.

    Rookie class is learn how to be a rookie firefighter. After they complete that step, I encourage them to take FFI AND FFII.


    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires.

    A knowledgeable officer knows exactly what their surrounding departments are capable of. if you didn't know that, you need to learn a little more about your area. As I said, i know exactly who can provide interior support and who can provide tanker and brush fire support in both my parishes. It's not that complicated.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    And as a department you have the right to tell a neighboring department that you will not respond into them because of training issues.

    I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.

    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    "Real" Firefighting?
    Actually you put quotes around the wrong word. What you do because of your training and attitude towards being 100% safe should henceforth be referred to as "firewatching" while wearing a firefighters costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Performance standards developed by the department would train the members to do as much, or as little, "real" firefighting (as you call it) as the department felt was appropriate to their manpower levels, experience and response times.
    ZZZZZzzzzzz

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as the personal insults, if it helps you sleep at night, keep up the good work.
    Will do. Thanks for the support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call it half-assed. Otiose are your words, not mine.

    There are fire departments out there a that are, and likely always will be defensive, exterior-oriented fire departments. That's a not me making excuses. That's the reality. There are factors such as funding, the manpower pool, apparatus, district size, and yes, leadership skills that affect how aggressive a department can be.

    I have no issues with a department recognizing this choosing to be a primarily exterior based fire department. None at all. And as such, if they don't feel that they as department, do not want to spend time spending their members to operate interior, then it should be their choice.

    The fact is the level of training a fire departments want to bring it's members to, should in the end, be determined by the fire department. If that is primarily non-interior, that's fine.

    For those of you in here that may be offended by the mindset, so be it.
    But what you seem to be overlooking is the fact that ultimately, this ISN'T about the FD or its members, IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE WE SERVE! Maybe what's "just fine" as a level of service (or non-service) in the FD's opinion IS NOT "just fine" with the residents of their community?
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  6. #346
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    Our small VFD had a reputation for saving basements. After a while the townsfolk decided that was okay because the fire leadership had actually convinced them that they did not have the training, manpower, time, and after all they were "only volunteers". It took quite a big effort to get the citizens to accept mediocrity. Fast forward to the current chief and now the people want an effort made to save the house because the Chief convinced them that we DID have the manpower, training, time and we were FIREFIGHTERS! We were in it for the people not the other way around! It takes a good BS artist to get the citizens to accept basement saving, but it can be done.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    But what you seem to be overlooking is the fact that ultimately, this ISN'T about the FD or its members, IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE WE SERVE! Maybe what's "just fine" as a level of service (or non-service) in the FD's opinion IS NOT "just fine" with the residents of their community?
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
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  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Our small VFD had a reputation for saving basements. After a while the townsfolk decided that was okay because the fire leadership had actually convinced them that they did not have the training, manpower, time, and after all they were "only volunteers". It took quite a big effort to get the citizens to accept mediocrity. Fast forward to the current chief and now the people want an effort made to save the house because the Chief convinced them that we DID have the manpower, training, time and we were FIREFIGHTERS! We were in it for the people not the other way around! It takes a good BS artist to get the citizens to accept basement saving, but it can be done.

    And sometimes it's just the reality of the situation as dictated by the resources at hand.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    First of all , the general public is usually blissfully ignorant of the abilities of the FD unless its their house, or they lose a couple of block..Second , while resources do play a part,"want to" and pride can offset a lot of negatives in the resource catagory.
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  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And sometimes it's just the reality of the situation as dictated by the resources at hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    Thank you for continuing to admit that you embrace a pathetic level of fire service to your community.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not overlooking that at all.
    Oh, so you're in favor of willfully misleading the community about their fire protection?

    If the community is unhappy with the fire protection, they have recourse. Go to the mayor, the city council, the fire district's board or governing body, or whomever else may be overseeing the fire department.
    Yes, that is certainly an option, but that requires the community to know they are unhappy with it and therein lies the problem.

    The public doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to distinguish between "good" and "bad" fire protection. I see it frequently in my region. There's a fire, fire trucks show up and squirt some water around and eventually the fire goes out and the "back slapping" starts amongst ourselves and the community "pats us on the back" too. All's good right?

    I've seen houses gutted by what started as a R&C fire because of the strategy and tactics used by their VFD.

    A few years ago my department responded to a reported fire in a neighboring community. They have a single engine and support unit VFD and rely on other VFDs for help with fires. Our one engine was added to this early morning call due to other units not staffing quickly. (Side note: Our engine is actually the next closest unit to this community and could beat their engine to most calls if dispatched at the same time, yet they don't utilize us.) We arrived as the 3rd unit to find no IC in place, a water supply established, attack lines stretched, personnel geared up, but nobody had actually gone inside the building yet. Our engine crew was the first to make entry on what was a flash fire in the dryer in the basement. There was a decent smoke condition, but there was not smoke pouring out of this house indicating a growing fire. Much of the small community probably wasn't aware that the incident occurred and since the house didn't burn down, the rest were probably "happy" with their VFD's efforts not knowing that their efforts actually had no bearing on the favorable outcome.

    The fact is the fire department is the one in the community that is responsible for evaluating what level of service they can deliver based on their resources - funding, manpower, apparatus, etc. etc.
    They are also the ones tasked with protecting the lives of firefighters, which is responsibility, IMO, even more critical than protecting the lives of the citizen.
    While there is some truth to this, how many fire departments are truly honest with their community about what they can actually provide them in their time of need based on those available resources? I've seen very few do anything of the sorts.

    Another small VFD nearby has been having issues responding to their calls for at least several months, if they even respond at all. Membership has dropped off along with the other "issues" plaguing the volunteer fire service. A few weeks ago this situation kind of came to a head when they had a working fire across the street from their fire station and NOBODY from that VFD responded to the call. Based on the reaction to the incident by the public and that community's elected officials, that VFD never informed the community of their situation. If they had, maybe the community could've done something to fix that?

    Until you can guarantee a level playing field in terms of resources for every community's fire department, I can't guarantee that there will be a level playing filed in terms of fire protection.
    re
    It's not about achieving a "level playing field". It's about honesty and accountability to the community. The public sees the building marked "fire department" with fire trucks sitting inside. They periodically see them with people in firefighter outfits around town. The reasonable conclusion is that they have a group of people that'll come mitigate their emergency in a competent fashion. After all, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...........

    Unfortunately, when it matters the most, the public may come to find out that they have a social club with fire trucks rather than an actual Fire Department with Firefighters.

    The residents of a small community will typically understand that they won't be getting the same level of services from their small VFD as the residents of a major city would get from their FD and will usually be ok with that. What they won't be ok with is finding out after the fact that their VFD lacks the ability to competently provide even basic services.
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  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    First of all , the general public is usually blissfully ignorant of the abilities of the FD unless its their house, or they lose a couple of block..Second , while resources do play a part,"want to" and pride can offset a lot of negatives in the resource catagory.
    I disagree, especially in rural areas.

    As far as pride offsetting negatives, I fully agree with that statement. I have seen some very poor VFDs do a whole lot with very little because they have pride in their department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thank you for continuing to admit that you embrace a pathetic level of fire service to your community.
    Never said it was my VFD.

    However, as I stated we have significant challenges, especially in the way of manpower levels and response time to the northern half of our district, neither of which we can do a whole lot to change simply because of our demographics..
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Then train them however you want inhouse. That is totally irrelevant to having a baseline of training so that when you go somewhere for mutual aid and the mutual aid rules call for a minimum of FF1 they don't get a fire engine load of your outstanding on the front lawn won't put on an SCBA yard breathers when they need interior firefighters to either attack the fire or do a search and rescue operation.

    Know your mutual aid. Plain and simple.

    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    Around here, in both my combo and volunteer departments, we are very well aware of the departments that can provide interior manpower and those that can't. Those that can't are used for tankers and water supply. It's not that complicated.

    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    My combo department will only send interior trained personnel if a department calls for manpower. If they call for tankers and water supply help, exterior only members are allowed to respond in that capacity. When we are asked by the state to deploy down south for hurricanes, we meet the FFI and Officer I requirements. In some cases, we will not meet the Driver-Operator requirement but they will be at least FFI.

    Because interior trained personnel is all we have it is never an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    If they ask for a specific level of rescue training as part of the deployment package, we will strive to send them a crew that also has that training. If we can't, we contact Homeland Security and ask them if they still want us to deploy. We will often use one of the neighboring combo departments to fill out any boat or water rescue requests as they run that service for the parish.

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    While my VFD does not deploy.

    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    As far as mutual aid, we will attempt to send only interior personnel to a manpower request. A general request or water supply request gets our support personnel in the role of apparatus operators



    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    The problem is and remains that you continually fail to hear what people say. State firefighter classes, whether certification classes or not, are not meant to be the end all be all in a firefighter's education and training.

    Fully aware. So are our in-house rookie classes. They act as a step towards FFI/FFII, if that is the firefighter's choice. they act as step towards attending regional classes in LA and TX. And they act as a step towards specialty classes that do not require FFI.

    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though your combo FD requires it for promotion.

    They are a baseline, what they give is a fire department a means of knowing the base level of training a firefighter has.

    So are our rookie classes and rookie checksheets. Difference is that all of the material in that class, in the case of my VFD and the checksheet in the case of my combo department, is 100% applicable to our daily operations.

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if you didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    And that's not my job. My job is train him for operations within MY department. We explain to them that one of the advantages is just as you described, and if that is something that is important to him/her we either teach the class of provide access to a class, and reward them at the end for passing the test.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    And that's great. I never said that I opposed higher standards if the department chooses to to that route. f you have a manpower pool that can support higher requirements, go for it. But if you have a manpower base that doesn't ....

    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Certification does not take away any individual FDs control of inhouse training. Both of my POC FDs require FF1 and believe me I do intense trainings wth them on a variety of topics. So please stop your propaganda in that arena. The truth is you hate the loss of power and control and the fact that some of the nonsense you preach may be completely discredited by outside instructors.

    Yes, I hate the loss of power and control to determine how, what and why new members will be taught. Yes, I hate wasting their time during rookie training on material that has no bearing to our operations. Yes, I hate making them study and learn material that has no use in my district just to pass a certification test.

    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    The fire department should be 100% responsible for determining what they will learn. If the fire department chooses FFI will be minimum, fine, but I will not stand by and see it shoved down our throats to in part, appease the unions who want to see fewer volunteers and more paid staff. That is the fundamental point that we disagree on.

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.


    Rookie class is learn how to be a rookie firefighter. After they complete that step, I encourage them to take FFI AND FFII.


    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so everyone starts the same.

    Each individual fire department has the obligation to ensure that the personnel they are putting on the trucks and sending out the door are "competent" in the performance of the duties expected of them in that department.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.


    It is the department's responsibility to train inhouse to whatever they wish, we disagree entirely on the belief that there should be a state mandated baseline level of training. As an IC if I called your VFD for mutual aid for an engine company and 5 guys showed up on that rig that won't go interior I would send you home and not call you again for anything other than tenders or grass fires.

    A knowledgeable officer knows exactly what their surrounding departments are capable of. if you didn't know that, you need to learn a little more about your area. As I said, i know exactly who can provide interior support and who can provide tanker and brush fire support in both my parishes. It's not that complicated.

    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    And as a department you have the right to tell a neighboring department that you will not respond into them because of training issues.

    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I can't help but wonder what will happen if the entire on duty crew for that city FD is in your town and a fire breaks out back home...Heads will roll on that one.


    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.


    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?
    You just don't get it and never will. You prefer excuses over moving to effect change.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-28-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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  15. #355
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said it was my VFD.

    However, as I stated we have significant challenges, especially in the way of manpower levels and response time to the northern half of our district, neither of which we can do a whole lot to change simply because of our demographics..
    I didn't say you said that about your VFD. You've made it clear via your posts on this and other thread.
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    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified? If we did that there we would be a pretty significant list of rural VFDs that would almost shut down?


    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    They often are larger communities than ours, which is why we require at least FFI for deployment. In fact, more often they have FFII, and the Officers have Officer I.


    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.


    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    See above. Most of the fire districts in our parish are happy with warm bodies of any type when they request MA. Sad, but true.


    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though you combo FD requires it for promotion.

    Never said that I do not support FFI/FFII. I have said it on many, many occasions that I do not support it as a rookie class. Is it really that complicated?

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if yu didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    Sounds similar to the proposal that I actually supported as a compromise several years ago at the Stet Firefighters Convention. It never made it out of legislative committee though.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Nope. No requirements. Did support a 50-hour class in the past? yes. Would I support it again? maybe, depending on the funding plan put forward with the proposal to deliver it.


    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Probably would not have been an issue on my old VFD in VT, but here it would be ... and by here I mean most rural VFDs in the state.


    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    .. And my combo department has enough FFI/II members, including volunteers, to meet the requirements when we do.

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    It works.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.

    If you really don't want to believe that unionized firefighters support FFI to make it more difficult to volunteer in the hope that some all volunteer departments will add career members or combo departments will go all career, so be it.

    I'm not hat naive.



    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.

    And the disadvantage is that there will be a lot of stuff taught that the new member may never see. Not an efficient use of time for a new firefighter operating on my FD, unless we want to extend the class so they can learn the procedure, techniques, tools and equipment that they might actually use tommarrow.


    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    Never said that we don't train members who are capable or wish to operate inside as interior members. Not once. But the reality is that in many small communities there just are not very many of them, and you support them with exterior folks. If only the exterior folks show for grandma, stuff happens..

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.

    I have heard your story before. It's nice. Proud of you. Never said we should not go interior of there is viable gain and the training, experiences, manpower and resources to do so. But I understand in many places that is simply not the case, and likely never will be the case. It's just the way that it is.

    My VFD isn't on of those places.



    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?

    You won't have to worry about that, will you?



    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I have never seen such a clause in a mutual aid agreement here.



    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.

    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?

    The city pays it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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  17. #357
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I do know my mutual aid. Because my state apparently is light years ahead of yours when it comes to firefighter training we have a state wide minimum standard. NO, it is not certification but it is a minimum standard that EVERY firefighter has to meet in order to operate on the fireground. Golly it seems to work very well here. Too bad excuses, teeth nashing, and enabling seem to be Lousiana's answer to fire training.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating on the fireground because they have to be interior-qualified? If we did that there we would be a pretty significant list of rural VFDs that would almost shut down?

    Great value? How many people do I need standing outside when the fire and the people needing rescue are inside? You see we run pumps with ONE pump operator and tenders usually with just a driveronce we arrive on scene. The other member in the tender would join the engine company and do whatever assignment the IC gave them, including masking up and going interior. Generally pump operators help change bottles, or ems does. Rehab is ems. So tell me what do I need 5 or 10 or 15 exterior guys for? That's right, I don't. I need guys to relieve those working inside for bottle changes and rehab. Not lawn ornaments. I will say when guys get older and want to slow down many of them turn to driving, but they all remain scba and interior qualified, it just may not be their first choice assignment.

    With virtually no standards, and no medical qualifications, what do you really have anyways?


    Because we have state wide standards it isn't an issue here. Golly that seems so simple.

    And how many people, who could be of great value, are excluded from operating ion the fireground because they have ti be interior-qualified?

    Great value? We would lose none.

    So when you deploy for hurricanes none of the communities you go to have multi-story buildings you might have to ladder? Or standpipe or sprinkler equipped buildings you may have to work in? Because you have repeatedly stated that that information is useless to your FDs. You see that is the problem with your little home grown only training program...it doesn't take into account in major emergencies you have to leave you little 1/4 acre of the world and help people in areas that are vastly different than your own.

    They often are larger communities than ours, which is why we require at least FFI for deployment. In fact, more often they have FFII, and the Officers have Officer I.

    So once again the certification that you have called useless so many times is required for deployment. How ironic.

    And they would not be on virtually anyone's mtual aid list up here unless you had good tenders and people qualified to operate them.

    Not enough resources to deploy, and frankly, no interest. As far as mutual aid, we generally bring to the table more SCBA qualified members than the host department when responding MA in our own parish, unless we are rolling into the neighboring city or my combo fire district in the next parish.

    Sure you do. For the scenario posted here you couldn't muster enugh interior people to check for extension. So which fairy tale shall we believe?

    Atempt? If I am at a working structure fire and I call your FD for manpower I don't want rehab technicians, or bottle changers, or lawn ornaments. I want guys who will mask up and go interior to work. If you can't supply that tell me so and I will call someone else.

    See above. Most of the fire districts in our parish are happy with warm bodies of any type when they request MA. Sad, but true.

    And that tells the entire pathetic story of firefighting in your area. Acceptance of warm bodies and names on a roster to give the appearance of a fire department.

    And your tune has once again changed since you have said repeatedly in the past how you do not support FF1 and FF2, even though you combo FD requires it for promotion.

    Never said that I do not support FFI/FFII. I have said it on many, many occasions that I do not support it as a rookie class. Is it really that complicated?

    Yes you have said it, time and time again. So sorry, I will not let you lie your way out of it here.

    Difference is here they would have no meaning at all if yu didn't first complete the state mandated Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 classes. A whopping 60 hours. OH LORD!! Who can find time for that? Frankly, if they can't they won't be around enough to be of any value to the FD anyways.

    So if someone leaves my #1POC FD and goes across the state and joins another volly FD the Chief can look at his paperwork and say okay this guy is FF2, FADO, Officer 1, he knows those skills taught in those classes so all we have to do is indoctrinate him into the things we do differently than the book.

    Sounds similar to the proposal that I actually supported as a compromise several years ago at the Stet Firefighters Convention. It never made it out of legislative committee though.

    So what did you do besides wring your hands and slink off? Hvw yo revamped it and re-introduced it? Have ou sought out your politicians and tried to sway them? Have yone anything besides whine about the Union firefighters? I already know the answer is no. Bit then again doing nothing is always easier isn't it? And don't say it isn't YOUR job, because it most certainly is if you are unhappy with the status quo. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

    Once again your blindness amazes me. You deploy for major disasters and you see no benefit in a mandated baseline state wide training level. I would find that a bit unnerving traveling somewhere and not knowing if the firefighter next to me just joined last week or has attended state training courses and more. I much prefer our minimum state mandated training with the option to move up to certifications if yu want to or your local FD requires it.

    Never said I didn't see advantages, and that may be one, but I see more disadvantages and funding issues with having it implemented especially given LSU Fire training's budget situation.

    More excuses and no real soluions other than to bury your head in the sand and change nothing.

    THAT IS THE POINT. Here too with MABAS there is a requirement for FF1 certification for firefighters responding outside their own MABAS zone. YES I understand Louisiana has no standards at all...pitiful as that is, but many parts of the country do, and even more FDs have higher standards than even the state requires. Funny thing is on my #1 POC FD membership went UPwhen our standards and training got better. Imagine that!

    Nope. No requirements. Did support a 50-hour class in the past? yes. Would I support it again? maybe, depending on the funding plan put forward with the proposal to deliver it.

    See this is where you are hysterical. Now you may not even support the plan you supported. What if it was simply a standard and you still taught it in house with a state supervised written and practical test at the end of the course? I know...you won't support that either.

    When you reach for the bottom that is all you ever get. As I said we struggled for years with mediocre people and when we raised the training stndards we lost some people but gained far more. We have had a full or almost full roster on my #1 POC FD for well over decade now and training requirements just took another bump up.

    Probably would not have been an issue on my old VFD in VT, but here it would be ... and by here I mean most rural VFDs in the state.

    Make that change to say more specifically, in YOUR area.

    Yet you deploy to areas outside of your district...

    .. And my combo department has enough FFI/II members, including volunteers, to meet the requirements when we do.

    Of course they do...do you send the maintenance men or just vollies?

    I agree with you IF you FD never leaves its borders and never requests help from any other Fire Department. Then you do not place anyone else in danger from another FD because of your non-standardized base line training.

    It works.

    No, it gets by at the pathetically low standards that you place on the local fre service.

    Your Union comment frankly makes you look like a complete dumb azz. I have been a Union firefighter for 22 years, both FDs I was on had people that were volunteer firefighters where they live. Neither Union Local gave a flying crap about it. They might say on occasion they would prefer we didn't do it but there was never any out and out order to stop, or harassment about it, or charges brought up at the Local.

    In the area of the state I live and work in I know well over a hundred firefighters that are career firefighters that volunteer on their days off. So maybe the issue is in YOUR area where the career firefighters never know what the hell you are sending them when they call for help and they are tired of excuses and lawn ornament firefighters. Maybe you need to examine that possibility because up here it seems to be no big deal unless they tried to volunteer back where they work. They don't do that because it is against federal labor law, even if your lawyer and leadership don't believe so. So put your anti-Union hat away because you pulling that card here makes you look like yu know you have lost and now you have to try and change the subject and make it a Union/Volunteer battle. Pathetic.

    If you really don't want to believe that unionized firefighters support FFI to make it more difficult to volunteer in the hope that some all volunteer departments will add career members or combo departments will go all career, so be it.

    I'm not hat naive.

    No you aren't that naive, but you are that ignorant. Prove it. Show me some proof of that because it is absolutely a bald faced lie here in Wisconsin.

    Fact is most volunteer/POC FDs in my tech collage district ALREADY MANDATE FF1 and some MANDATE FF2. Funny thing is they don't struggle for members and no Union anywhere had a damn thing to do with it. Some are now requirinf Certified Fire Apparatus Driver Operator and Certified Officer 1 for promotion. Yes Bobby being a driver is a promotion not where they hide people that won't or never would go interior.





    Entry Level Firefighter 1 & 2 is a generic rookie firefighter training program taught through the state technical college system. It teaches basic hose evolutions, hose loads, SCBA usage, ladders, forcible entry, overhaul, fire behavior, fire attack, and has a live fire training exercise component. It is essentially a VERY basic rookie school. The advantage is it is STANDARDIZED so every starts the same.

    And the disadvantage is that there will be a lot of stuff taught that the new member may never see. Not an efficient use of time for a new firefighter operating on my FD, unless we want to extend the class so they can learn the procedure, techniques, tools and equipment that they might actually use tommarrow.

    Like what? Hose? Nozzles? Ladders? Axes? Pike poles? Fire? SCBA? What will they never see? Come on tell me? WHAT OF THOSE BASIC SKILLS WILL THEY NEVER SEE? Here is where you argument is completely and totally baseless and you just look like an argumentative azz.

    Agreed. Competent as defined by that fire department based on their interior/exterior operational philosophy, the services they provide, their district and their apparatus and equipment. That again, is a fundamental disagreement.

    We disagree, because you idea of competence for some FDs is exterior defensive only firefighters. That simply is not acceptable here and I don't think it is as accepted there as you believe. Just wait til gramma is hanging out the window and your exterior heroes can't rescue her and she burns to death right in front of the public's eye...Yeah, they will understand. Especially gramma's family's attorney.

    Never said that we don't train members who are capable or wish to operate inside as interior members. Not once. But the reality is that in many small communities there just are not very many of them, and you support them with exterior folks. If only the exterior folks show for grandma, stuff happens..

    Yes, stuff happens, your ever so glib "La la la people die and I don't care" attitude. Why are you even in the fire service if you don't give a flying F**K about the citizens? Yes, I have had people die at calls, both fire and ems, and sometimes there is nothing you can do to change the outcome, but other times aggressive, FAST action can save lives. Your model of look for all the reasons not to go inside is NOT normal, it is NOT the model of the fire service. It is your method of never getting a boo boo and the citizens pay the ultimate price in the end. Proper, quick efficient size-up saves lives and property. Which is why I became a firefighter in the first place. Why don't you just get a camera stand on the curb and be a fire buff? At least then you wouldn't be in the way at scenes or in the way of prgress.

    When I first joined my #1 POC FD in 1977 we ran a 1950 and a 1937 Engine and a 1949 tanker. As we improved training and more younger people joined we became more aggressive and we did interior attacks utilizing those old engines. Why? Because it was all we had and the people expected us to save their lives and their property. So we did the best we could with what we had and we did go interior. You see it is less about excuses and more about solutions and solutions seem like too much work for you. It is one thing to be where you are and see a need to change and move to change and entirely another to sit on your hands and moan woe is me.

    I have heard your story before. It's nice. Proud of you. Never said we should not go interior of there is viable gain and the training, experiences, manpower and resources to do so. But I understand in many places that is simply not the case, and likely never will be the case. It's just the way that it is.

    Why NEVER? Is there a time warp there? Is it a looped time continuum there that refuses to allow change? Is it against Louisiana law for fire protection to improve? Is there a local conspiracy to burn down the town? WHY CAN'T POSITIVE CHANGE EVER OCCUR? You see this is where you sound like a complete numbskull and an enabler for believing that change simply will never occur. It may never occur while you are in the area since you keep patting them on the head and saying "yeah you guys suck, but it's okay, you don't need to ever change."

    My VFD isn't on of those places.


    Yet for this scenario you couldn't muster enough guys to knock down a garage fire and check inside the house for extension. Remind me again which version of the fairy tale to believe?

    Again I do because of state mandated minimum standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    You are not helping me you are hindering me by sending inadequately trained firefighters. Further why should I send MY firefighters into your community to fight your fires when I have no idea of what your firefighter's training level or abilities are?


    You won't have to worry about that, will you?


    No but the poor SOB's that live there and expect the fire department to do something besides have a weiny roast on the smoldering remains of their house do, now don't they?

    Actually our county has a mutual aid contract that spells out standards. Golly that seems so simple.

    I have never seen such a clause in a mutual aid agreement here.


    You see LA that would require having standards and its clear you have none.

    They are backed up by a large volunteer component that staffs the station. They will usually have 5-firefighter backfill crew up in less than 10 minutes.

    Who is paying the overtime for the called back off duty firefighters?

    The city pays it.

    In these economic times, when you **** and moan about the lack of financial support for your volly FDs you have no problem with the citizens of the city paying to come out and fight your fires with no reimbursement from the volly FDs. God man you are the epitomy of the word hypocrite.
    Just more of your nonsensical hypocritical babbling.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-28-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  18. #358
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    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.

  19. #359
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.
    In Wisconsin the class is free and testing costs $80.00.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you get FF1 in some of your guy's areas? In my area you go to the state fire school and take the class. It takes 80 to 100 hours and $1400 dollars not including room and board which is another $600. The problem I have is that if you don't pass one of the skills tests the first time you don't get to try again, you have to pay the $1400 and take the class over again. The class is not really designed to certify to the FF1 level, it is designed to provide at least some level of training because My state has no minimum level of training.
    In LA, I would say that at least half of the FFI classes are delivered by fire department personnel by fire department instructors, either for just their agencies or for a group of departments. In our area there is generally no cost for these classes beyond the books and maybe a small admin fee, as the instructors provide their services as volunteers.

    The remaining portion is delivered by LSU Fire Training, generally as a regional delivery at a fire department. I'm not sure how much it is but the number of $250 per firefighter rattles around in my head.

    They do run fire academies down at the main campus in Baton Rouge, which includes FFII and D/O. I believe the cost for that, including room and possibly board, is about $3500 for 12 weeks. That is primarily for paid personnel.

    Testing fee here is $35.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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