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Thread: Fire Attack photo

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I bet you went interior and saved some homes during that period too. It wasn't the age of the vehicle that mde the department, it was the firefighters.
    yes sir we did, in fact back in the late 70s when i first started, we had a 5/4 kaiser with what the state forestry called a "class9" skid unit. 300 gallon tank, wisconsin 21 horse motor with a (250?) GPM hale pump. It would pump an 1-1/2" just fine at 120. Made a few trips inside with that set up also. Believe it or not, Arkansas has a first rate FREE fire academy. They used to offer weekend classes and not only furnished a motel room , but feed you lunch.
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    Well, in a serious attempt to get this topic back on track let me say this...After thinking about it I would have my #1 POC FD's first engine do the following with a crew of 4. Stretch a 200 foot 2 inch pre-connect down the driveway and utilize the 1 1/4 inch slug tip to hit the side of the house with a quick shot to knock down the visible fire and then turn that stream onto the garage. Hitting it with 300 gpm and foam would make quick work of that fire. Once it was knocked down, IF additional help hadn't arrived yet, I would put the combo tip back on this line, tell the pump operator to give me 160 gpm and then leave one firefighter there to monitor the garage fire and apply water as needed and have the other 2 pull a second line, grab a hook and the TIC and go inside to check for extension into what I believe is the kitchen area of the house.

    Frankly, the garage and all its contents are junk and whether it continues to burn, as long as it doesn't threaten the house, or other exposures means nothing in the overall picture. It is far more important to ensure that the fire didn't spread into the house, than it is to worry about a pile of smoldering rubble.

    Discuss...and let's try to get back on topic!!
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    I would bet we would do it mostly the same way with a few exceptions. We would probably not use foam, only because it takes over 200 psi to get it to flow and the officers don't like it anyway. We would use the 1 3/4 preconnects because we could probably get a knockdown in the time it takes to get a 2 1/2 into service. For this fire in an area without hydrants we would probably sacrifice one off the engine to drive the tender and call for the neighboring tender. Out of curiosity, does anyone keep scba on their tenders? We don't and the officers have told me we don't need them on the tender. I only ask because I have been in the tender on mutual aid for a structure fire and needed an scba but couldn't get one and I HATE trailer house smoke. Anyway, would you guys spend any time getting the minivan out of the way if all you have is four or five on the scene?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, in a serious attempt to get this topic back on track let me say this...After thinking about it I would have my #1 POC FD's first engine do the following with a crew of 4. Stretch a 200 foot 2 inch pre-connect down the driveway and utilize the 1 1/4 inch slug tip to hit the side of the house with a quick shot to knock down the visible fire and then turn that stream onto the garage. Hitting it with 300 gpm and foam would make quick work of that fire. Once it was knocked down, IF additional help hadn't arrived yet, I would put the combo tip back on this line, tell the pump operator to give me 160 gpm and then leave one firefighter there to monitor the garage fire and apply water as needed and have the other 2 pull a second line, grab a hook and the TIC and go inside to check for extension into what I believe is the kitchen area of the house.

    I'm in favor of all the above, however I have a question. Why are you putting the combo tip back on the nozzle? Why not just allow him to flow 300gpm? It's not uncontrollable alone, because we just did it at the fire last week with my 1 exterior firefighter. I'm not saying don't put it back on, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.

    Frankly, the garage and all its contents are junk and whether it continues to burn, as long as it doesn't threaten the house, or other exposures means nothing in the overall picture. It is far more important to ensure that the fire didn't spread into the house, than it is to worry about a pile of smoldering rubble.

    Agreed, again.

    Discuss...and let's try to get back on topic!!
    What fun is a thread that's on topic around here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I would bet we would do it mostly the same way with a few exceptions. We would probably not use foam, only because it takes over 200 psi to get it to flow and the officers don't like it anyway. We would use the 1 3/4 preconnects because we could probably get a knockdown in the time it takes to get a 2 1/2 into service.
    Is there any particular reason it's going to take longer to get your 2.5 into service than your 1.75"? Is all of your 2.5 in a dead lay with the only preconnects being 1.75"?

    For this fire in an area without hydrants we would probably sacrifice one off the engine to drive the tender and call for the neighboring tender. Out of curiosity, does anyone keep scba on their tenders? We don't and the officers have told me we don't need them on the tender. I only ask because I have been in the tender on mutual aid for a structure fire and needed an scba but couldn't get one and I HATE trailer house smoke.
    [COLOR=RED]On my primary department, we have 4 SCBA on our tanker, in bags in a compartment. 2 for the occupants of the tanker, and 2 for the occupants of the brush rig. There are also spare bottles on the truck.

    On my second department, we have 1 pumper/tanker that runs as our primary tanker for OUR department. That truck has I believe 2 SCBA on it for the occupants of that truck. Our second tanker, which is our mutual aid tanker and secondary tanker for our calls, didn't have any SCBA on it for the longest time, but I believe (90% certain) it has one on it now.

    Anyway, would you guys spend any time getting the minivan out of the way if all you have is four or five on the scene?
    Honestly, I probably wouldn't even give the van a second thought. Depending on rig positioning, where hosese are laid, and if it was only a 4 man crew, it would probably turn into more of a headache to move it than it's worth.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    I am not sure why the officers are fighting me on the scba issue, and it sounds like you guys are set up well. We have a lot of old guys that never wear scba anyway so they figure I don't need one on the tender. Yes, all of our 2 1/2 is on top with the LDH and not preconected. I was thinking the van might be in the way if the fire had extended to the house, but I suppose you could move it at anytime if it was needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I am not sure why the officers are fighting me on the scba issue, and it sounds like you guys are set up well. We have a lot of old guys that never wear scba anyway so they figure I don't need one on the tender.
    I'm honestly not sure why ANYONE fights about the SCBA issue anymore, but it happens.
    Yes, all of our 2 1/2 is on top with the LDH and not preconected.
    Gotcha. That's why we went with 2" preconnects, and that's all we carry. BUT, that's Fyred's baby so if you're interested I'm sure he will explain it.
    I was thinking the van might be in the way if the fire had extended to the house, but I suppose you could move it at anytime if it was needed.
    Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying about the van. I just don't know that I would personally give it a second look. For me, it wouldn't be in the way of anyone attacking the fire in the garage, and as far as checking for extension goes, I would imagine that there is probably a door along the wall where the guy with the garden hose is standing, and I would send my crew in that way to check for extension, versus going around the car and behind the house.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    I'm in favor of all the above, however I have a question. Why are you putting the combo tip back on the nozzle? Why not just allow him to flow 300gpm? It's not uncontrollable alone, because we just did it at the fire last week with my 1 exterior firefighter. I'm not saying don't put it back on, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
    Because the firefighter is all by themselves on the line, all they are doing is babysitting a pile of smoldering remains so there is no need to battle the nozzle reaction of 300 gpm and sitting or kneeling on the line doesn't allow them to move to the most advantageous position. AND frankly, anyone that can't handle that line alone at 160 gpm needs to go get me a bottle of water and get the hell out of my way!
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I would bet we would do it mostly the same way with a few exceptions. We would probably not use foam, only because it takes over 200 psi to get it to flow and the officers don't like it anyway. It takes 200 psi if you are using an eductor, but remember that doesn't equate to higher nozzle reaction because most of that pressure is taken up in the eductor. We would use the 1 3/4 preconnects because we could probably get a knockdown in the time it takes to get a 2 1/2 into service. For this fire in an area without hydrants we would probably sacrifice one off the engine to drive the tender and call for the neighboring tender. Out of curiosity, does anyone keep scba on their tenders? We carry 4 SCBA on our tender, as well as spare cylinders. We don't and the officers have told me we don't need them on the tender. I only ask because I have been in the tender on mutual aid for a structure fire and needed an scba but couldn't get one and I HATE trailer house smoke. Anyway, would you guys spend any time getting the minivan out of the way if all you have is four or five on the scene? Nope, not one second. The damage that is done is already done and killing the fire stops further damage.
    Thanks for getting back on topic!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Because the firefighter is all by themselves on the line, all they are doing is babysitting a pile of smoldering remains so there is no need to battle the nozzle reaction of 300 gpm and sitting or kneeling on the line doesn't allow them to move to the most advantageous position. AND frankly, anyone that can't handle that line alone at 160 gpm needs to go get me a bottle of water and get the hell out of my way!
    Gotcha, that makes sense.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I am not sure why the officers are fighting me on the scba issue, and it sounds like you guys are set up well. We have a lot of old guys that never wear scba anyway so they figure I don't need one on the tender. Yes, all of our 2 1/2 is on top with the LDH and not preconected. I was thinking the van might be in the way if the fire had extended to the house, but I suppose you could move it at anytime if it was needed.
    We carry 6 SCBAs and 6 spare cylinders on our tanker, however, they are very rarely used for firefighting as the SCBAs primarily come off the engines.

    Primary reason they are carried is to meet the SCBA requirements for a service truck, which is how our tanker is classified under the LA rating system.
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1366575 Stretch a 200 foot 2 inch pre-connect down the driveway and utilize the 1 1/4 inch slug tip to hit the side of the house with a quick shot to knock down the visible fire and then turn that stream onto the garage. Hitting it with 300 gpm and foam would make quick work of that fire. [/QUOTE]

    Not being familiar with 2 in hose, what pressure does it take to get 300 gpm? My slide rule does support 2 in.

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    Engine, crew of 4....lay in from hydrant (1 guy there), officer would walk to back to see what's going on, other FF would stretch 1 3/4" crosslay. Driver would connect supply, charge line. Guy at hydrant would walk up and be backup on line till visible fire knocked down. Officer would be checking extension and then backup guy would join him.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Not being familiar with 2 in hose, what pressure does it take to get 300 gpm? My slide rule does support 2 in.
    We tested this with a calibrated flow meter AND a Pitot Gauge and we found we could flow 300 gpm through 200 feet of 2 inch at a pump discharge pressure of 150 psi. The nozzle pressure is right around 40 psi.
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    Good grief! Two inch line sounds like a good idea. More water less pressure than 1 3/4 and easier to move and advance than 2 1/2. Do you have to adapt a 2 1/2 nozzle or is there a good selection of 2 in? Do you guys still have 2 1/2 on the engines?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Good grief! Two inch line sounds like a good idea. More water less pressure than 1 3/4 and easier to move and advance than 2 1/2. Do you have to adapt a 2 1/2 nozzle or is there a good selection of 2 in? Do you guys still have 2 1/2 on the engines?
    We use a standard Elkhart Nozzle a 4000-24 low pressure combination nozzle that flows 200 gpm at 75 psi, we underpump to 55 psi at the tip to give us 160 gpm as a starting flow. The shut off is an Elkhart5 B-375-GAT with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip smoothbore. Well actually, when we bought them we bought B-275-GAT's with integral 15/16 inch slug tips and when we wanted to go to 1 1/4 slug tips Elkhart didn't make one yet so we took ours to a machine shop and had them bored out to 1 1/4 inch. These nozzles are all 1 1/2 inch thread because that is the size of the couplings on our 2 inch hose.

    We do not own a single foot of 2 1/2 inch hose. All of our handlines are 2 inch, well other than 1 inch forestry hose for wildfires. The other sizes of hose we have are 3 inch for our apartment lay, supplying deluge sets, supplying FDC's, or filling tankers. We also have 5 inch hose for supply. So essentially we are a 1, 2, 3, 5 inch hose FD.

    By the way, I am NOT an Elkhart salesman, I just really like there nozzles!
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Out of curiosity, does anyone keep scba on their tenders? We don't and the officers have told me we don't need them on the tender. I only ask because I have been in the tender on mutual aid for a structure fire and needed an scba but couldn't get one and I HATE trailer house smoke.
    We have SCBAs for every seat except the driver in our tanker. That may have to do with the fact that it started out as a pumper/tanker and ran as our engine for the first part of it's life. Having the SCBA on board comes in handy if we have extra staffing that arrives in the tanker as opposed to waiting for the next engine to leave.

    Once it is replaced, I expect that we will put SCBA for each seating position on the new tanker.
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    First engine should lay in, so in lets say we have a full crew, one guy is at the hydrant, pull up and hit with the deck gun for 3-4 secs, calm it down for a min or two so guys 3 & 4 can stretch 1 3/4 to protect the house from the garage. as soon as number 5 with water supply comes back up, him and 6 grab the deuce and a half, and together with the 1 3/4 and the deck gun again, attack it. 1 3/4 goes left around the car where they have been protecting the house, deck gun over top the car, 2 1/2 goes right. Second in engine should be here by now, they can investigate the house for extension, M/A will be arriving about this time, two engines, a ladder, a squad as rit, a tender, an ambulance and two chiefs. Switch the attack crews out with the two engine crews to finish extinguishing/Overhaul. I'd give an entire engine a line where before one crew ran both because they will need to manpower to open up any remaining walls and what not. Return Ladder, and squad as soon as is is confirmed extinguished and there is no extention into the house, release the remaining M/A companies as soon as hoses start to be broke down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We carry 6 SCBAs and 6 spare cylinders on our tanker, however, they are very rarely used for firefighting as the SCBAs primarily come off the engines.

    Primary reason they are carried is to meet the SCBA requirements for a service truck, which is how our tanker is classified under the LA rating system.
    No one here is surprised that your SCBA's are rarely used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Btownguy View Post
    First engine should lay in, so in lets say we have a full crew, one guy is at the hydrant, pull up and hit with the deck gun for 3-4 secs, calm it down for a min or two so guys 3 & 4 can stretch 1 3/4 to protect the house from the garage. as soon as number 5 with water supply comes back up, him and 6 grab the deuce and a half, and together with the 1 3/4 and the deck gun again, attack it. 1 3/4 goes left around the car where they have been protecting the house, deck gun over top the car, 2 1/2 goes right. Second in engine should be here by now, they can investigate the house for extension, M/A will be arriving about this time, two engines, a ladder, a squad as rit, a tender, an ambulance and two chiefs. Switch the attack crews out with the two engine crews to finish extinguishing/Overhaul. I'd give an entire engine a line where before one crew ran both because they will need to manpower to open up any remaining walls and what not. Return Ladder, and squad as soon as is is confirmed extinguished and there is no extention into the house, release the remaining M/A companies as soon as hoses start to be broke down.
    WOW! That is a lot of water and equipment for a single car garage fire!

    If you are going to pull a 2 1/2 why wouldn't it be your first line off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    WOW! That is a lot of water and equipment for a single car garage fire!

    If you are going to pull a 2 1/2 why wouldn't it be your first line off?
    That's pretty much what I was thinking while reading it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No one here is surprised that your SCBA's are rarely used.
    We actually use SCBA ........... off the engines ................very often.

    It's no surprise that you continue to be a ..... Dumb@@@.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    WOW! That is a lot of water and equipment for a single car garage fire!
    I bet it saves time doing overhaul, though. Flowing the deck gun, 1-3/4 and 2-1/2, they can just wash the entire garage away.
    Last edited by sfd1992; 05-08-2013 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We actually use SCBA ........... off the engines ................very often.

    It's no surprise that you continue to be a ..... Dumb@@@.
    Of course you do. It must get smokey in the yard while the whole house is on fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Of course you do. It must get smokey in the yard while the whole house is on fire.
    Was referring to the tanker on my combo department where we have better response times as well as the training, experience, manpower and resources to fight fire aggressively most of the time.

    We don't carry SCBA on the tanker at my VFD.
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