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  1. #26
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    JMHO. I wouldn't want to handle a 2 1/2" line for a garage fire. 1 3/4" should be fine.

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    That guy is seeing more fire and doing more then some on these forums.....
    2 pre-connects; one on the main body, one exposures. A truck company in the house to check for extension, overhaul, clean up, 45 minutes start to finish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    This. But depending what was on fire, and how much of it was burning when I got a better picture, I would consider using our Class-A foam system as well through the fire attack line only.

    Nice idea on the foam and I would do that as well. There is a problem with your plan though in that once you turn the foam on ALL of the pre-connects are foam lines.

    I would have a crew open up the soffit for investigation and depending what was found there, and what the crew inside found, possibly open the roof for further investigation.

    I hope you mean on the house. I am not putting anyone on the roof of the garage. Although, if you pull the soffit and believe you have extension it might be better to pull ceiling inside the house to see what's what in that area.

    I would also task a crew with a third 2" for exterior exposure protection, depending on what else is near the fire. My bet would be there is some sort of structure to the right of where the fire is in the picture, because that line of bushes looks like it could possibly be a divider between yards/driveways.

    Not a bad call, I hadn't considered that possibility.
    Not bad kid. I may make an officer out of you yet!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-15-2013 at 06:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyredup View Post
    can i get a hell yeah!! Too often forgot in the tactical checklist world of command.
    hell yeah!!
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 04-15-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nice idea on the foam and I would do that as well. There is a problem with your plan though in that once you turn the foam on ALL of the pre-connects are foam lines.
    I thought only one line in each crosslay bed was foam?

    I'd still pull two 2" lines, one to the fire, one to the house, and depending on what was actually burning and how much, use the foam system. I would task exposure control to the second due crew. I would have them connect a 2" to one of the other non-foam discharges (I know it has to be adapted down, adapters are in the operators compartment) on the first due engine and exposure control could be done with just water then. Granted, exposure control might not be necessary if a quick knock down happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I hope you mean on the house. I am not putting anyone on the roof of the garage. Although, if you pull the soffit and believe you have extension it might be better to pull ceiling inside the house to see what's what in that area.
    I do mean the house. I'm not putting anyone on the roof of the garage either. I can't tell from the photo if the soffit is actually burning, or the fire is just forming to the shape of the house. My hope would be that the soffit just shows signs of heat and smoke, and that it was never actually on fire. In which case pulling just the soffit could possibly be enough to check for extension. Then again, maybe not.

    After reading your comment and thinking on it a bit, I'm gonna say I would pull ceiling first instead of opening the roof. I feel it would allow me to better investigate the contents of the attic/void space by pulling ceiling and pulling insulation and whatever else is up there down and pulling it somewhat apart to check it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not bad kid. I may make an officer out of you yet!!
    That's the goal, right? lol
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  6. #31
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    What would my department do?

    We'd complain that the first due mutual aid obviously beat us on scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Discuss what your FD would do in this situation...


    Cheer him on.
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    I said earlier that it looks like a detached garage, but still looks pretty close. I watched a video last night by Ray McCormack that said in an attached garage the first line should be stretched to the house and the second should attack the garage. I wonder now though if you went into the house first you might have extension into the house by the time you got into position. Even though the fire is impinging on the house I think the first attack line should go right up the drive way. The foam was a good idea. It takes 200 PSI to get our engine to flow foam but two guys can handle it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I thought only one line in each crosslay bed was foam?

    Nope all the crosslays, the 2-200 foot bumper crosslays, and the over the pump 2-300 footers are all foam, as are the 2-2 1/2s off the back.


    I'd still pull two 2" lines, one to the fire, one to the house, and depending on what was actually burning and how much, use the foam system. I would task exposure control to the second due crew. I would have them connect a 2" to one of the other non-foam discharges (I know it has to be adapted down, adapters are in the operators compartment) on the first due engine and exposure control could be done with just water then. Granted, exposure control might not be necessary if a quick knock down happens.

    Is there a particular reason why you wouldn't use foam for your exposure line?

    I do mean the house. I'm not putting anyone on the roof of the garage either. I can't tell from the photo if the soffit is actually burning, or the fire is just forming to the shape of the house. My hope would be that the soffit just shows signs of heat and smoke, and that it was never actually on fire. In which case pulling just the soffit could possibly be enough to check for extension. Then again, maybe not.

    After reading your comment and thinking on it a bit, I'm gonna say I would pull ceiling first instead of opening the roof. I feel it would allow me to better investigate the contents of the attic/void space by pulling ceiling and pulling insulation and whatever else is up there down and pulling it somewhat apart to check it.

    My thoughts were if the fire got in there opening the ceiling would allow me to make a quick hit and perhaps knock whatever fire is in there before it spread.


    That's the goal, right? lol

    Indeed it is. Your responsibility to learn is even greater now.
    Still overall a good call on your part.
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  10. #35
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    Clearly the big issue here, is thumb over the end vs. smoothbore vs fog.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Clearly the big issue here, is thumb over the end vs. smoothbore vs fog.
    Garden hose tactics; fold hose over to pinch it off for 3 seconds, then suddenly release. The pressure build up will shoot a slug of water futher for a second. Repeat as necessary. LEARN THIS.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Is there a particular reason why you wouldn't use foam for your exposure line?

    No particular reason comes to mind for me, no. Other than conserving the foam. If exposure control has to happen at a quick rate due to impending fire spread to exposures, than I would just have another crosslay pulled and use the foam with it. No big deal. However if I've got a bit of time before extension to an exposure becomes a real issue, and the extra manpower to do it, I will make a connection at a non-foam discharge, conserving the foam for actual fire suppression activities.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    No particular reason comes to mind for me, no. Other than conserving the foam. If exposure control has to happen at a quick rate due to impending fire spread to exposures, than I would just have another crosslay pulled and use the foam with it. No big deal. However if I've got a bit of time before extension to an exposure becomes a real issue, and the extra manpower to do it, I will make a connection at a non-foam discharge, conserving the foam for actual fire suppression activities.
    The amount of foam you would use to protect the exposure would be miniscule in this case and to me not warrant the extra work to break and then make a non-foam discharge hook up.
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    I have nothing against foam, but have never used it at a fire. In this picture would foam be needed? Would foam give you an advantage if man power was an issue?

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    Throw in the Fit-5 and wish the guy well. Time to get back to the station.

    OK, hit it with 1 3/4 with CAFS. TIC the soffit and interior of the house. Fill out a report.

    Ask the guy if he wants to learn to do it right and become a volunteer.

    A deck gun? WHY? 2 1/2? WHY?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I have nothing against foam, but have never used it at a fire. In this picture would foam be needed? Would foam give you an advantage if man power was an issue?
    Foam almost always gives you an advantage by making the water more effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    A deck gun? WHY? 2 1/2? WHY?
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?
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  18. #43
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    One length of 2 3/4 hose with a gated wye that splits into two seperate lines of 1 3/4 inch (with a length of 120ft).

    I would use the deck gun if our tanker was close behind and if that car was out of the way. I doubt that the deck gun could hit the seat of the fire as much I would. Also, lining up the deck gun with the drive way would mean the the pump operator would have a bad view of the scene because we only have rear mounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?
    I just know i can hit it with the 1 3/4 CAFS and get it, there is no reason in my mind to even consider the 2 1/2, IMHO. Now, the deckgun IMHO defies any logic.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I just know i can hit it with the 1 3/4 CAFS and get it, there is no reason in my mind to even consider the 2 1/2, IMHO. Now, the deckgun IMHO defies any logic.
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    WHY? On my #1 POC FD pulling a 2 inch line gets us 160-200 gpm using a low pressure combo nozzle or 300 gpm if we dump that and go to the 1 1/4 inch smoothbore. The fact that being up there allows more accurate placement of the water and a whole lot less wasted water/foam makes the few seconds of additional delay more than worthwhile to me.

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    If your bomb line is a 2 1/2 sure that will work. But if your engine has 4 guys (MPO and 3 on the line) they are all tied up on the one line and it leaves no one to enter the house to check for extension. This is a rinky dink little one car garage and I stand by my original thought that a medium sized line flowing 150 or more would have no problem with this fire. That means MPO, 2 on the line and one checking the house. Second due establish water supply and bring in a second line for exposures or to kill the fire in the attic space of the house. To me it is about most effectively utilizing your crews and our 2 inch with 2 people will flow as much, or more, water than most places flow from their deuce and a half.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?

    Andy Fredricks said that. And when you have the manpower, as quickly as they can get it in New York, the 2 1/2 seems like a great choice most of the time. We don't have 3 and 2 coming to every fire, we have 2 and wait for mutual aid so we came up with our own game plan. We do have a bomb line it is either an Elkhart Stinger or a Elkhart RAM depending on rig.
    To each his own. After all, the plan is to put out the fire and quickly, efficiently, and safely as possible.

    I am a firm believer in the we are winning, or we are losing, thought process. To me "Holding the fire" is losing.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.
    I wouldn't. Not only because of that car parked in front of where you want your stream to go, but also because at my department, the first rig doesn't make the plug. (huge gasps from the crowd) That gives you about a minute and a half ( conservative figure) to bounce water everywhere before your tank is dry. I'm of the mindset that on a residential fire, busting out the monitor is done right before the water curtains go up. Chenzo's attack plan sounds similar to ours with exposure protection in concert with fire attack. Check the house for extension, confine the fire to the garage and drown it.

    Besides, you're going to be dragging lines off to mop that up anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, on my #1 POC FD that would be a 2 inch pre-connect down the driveway to kill that fire and another inside the house to check for extension. On my #2 POC FD and my Career FD this would be a 1 3/4 down the driveway and another inside the house to check for extension.

    Honestly, it looks spectacular from the end of the driveway but I don't think that is really much of a fire at this point.

    I give the kid on the garden hose credit for trying to save the car. At least he is shielded by the house.
    I'd have to say the same, difference being FD#1 would be my fulltime dept. With my POC FD, a 1 3/4" would work because we have a 1000 gal. tank and Class A and B foam.

    We used to have a lot of older 3 and 4 car garages in the campus area that I used to work in. Standard method of attack was to use a 2" line for knock down, and then use an 1 1/2" off of the second engine for overhaul. Both had 1000 gal tanks. We rarely laid a supply line unless there was an exsposure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.

    IDK, the mini van in the way for one. Being in an area that the closest hydrant is coming on the tenders? About the only reason I can see for the deck gun is if you were a one man engine company.... AND, if you went up and drove the mini van away to get it out of the line of fire. (Which if I arrived in the command truck I may have done anyways if waiting on the first engine)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    A deck gun? WHY? 2 1/2? WHY?
    Because some people 1) get excited when they encounter what they think is "big fire" and go for the "big water" devices and/or 2) they don't fully understand the extinguishing ability of smaller lines (if properly set up and used effectively).


    Not saying that's specifically the case with anybody who has posted in this thread, but more of a generalized impression based on personal observation of and discussion with other fire service personnel. It seems to be more prevalent among people who lack regular experience with more significant fires.

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