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  1. #41
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I have nothing against foam, but have never used it at a fire. In this picture would foam be needed? Would foam give you an advantage if man power was an issue?
    Foam almost always gives you an advantage by making the water more effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    A deck gun? WHY? 2 1/2? WHY?
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?
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  3. #43
    Forum Member Theusje's Avatar
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    One length of 2 3/4 hose with a gated wye that splits into two seperate lines of 1 3/4 inch (with a length of 120ft).

    I would use the deck gun if our tanker was close behind and if that car was out of the way. I doubt that the deck gun could hit the seat of the fire as much I would. Also, lining up the deck gun with the drive way would mean the the pump operator would have a bad view of the scene because we only have rear mounts.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?
    I just know i can hit it with the 1 3/4 CAFS and get it, there is no reason in my mind to even consider the 2 1/2, IMHO. Now, the deckgun IMHO defies any logic.

  5. #45
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I just know i can hit it with the 1 3/4 CAFS and get it, there is no reason in my mind to even consider the 2 1/2, IMHO. Now, the deckgun IMHO defies any logic.
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Better question-

    Why NOT?

    WHY? On my #1 POC FD pulling a 2 inch line gets us 160-200 gpm using a low pressure combo nozzle or 300 gpm if we dump that and go to the 1 1/4 inch smoothbore. The fact that being up there allows more accurate placement of the water and a whole lot less wasted water/foam makes the few seconds of additional delay more than worthwhile to me.

    If I am the ECO arriving on the first-in piece at the end of the driveway to a detached garage with heavy fire blowing and exposure problems, I'm telling the lads to pull the bomb line, which my guys are pretty much headed for anyways. Get it going. I see heavy fire I am going to address the issue as the cards are layed out....What's the worst thing that can happen- I'll walk up the driveway and say "oh geez I coulda handled this with a small line." Whats the best thing that could happen? With the deuce and a half, the fire will go out .8 seconds after the bail is opened. Go back to quarters and finish dinner.

    If your bomb line is a 2 1/2 sure that will work. But if your engine has 4 guys (MPO and 3 on the line) they are all tied up on the one line and it leaves no one to enter the house to check for extension. This is a rinky dink little one car garage and I stand by my original thought that a medium sized line flowing 150 or more would have no problem with this fire. That means MPO, 2 on the line and one checking the house. Second due establish water supply and bring in a second line for exposures or to kill the fire in the attic space of the house. To me it is about most effectively utilizing your crews and our 2 inch with 2 people will flow as much, or more, water than most places flow from their deuce and a half.

    Now, if I arrived in the Car, and had a chance to do a walkabout, and its a small garage, ok yeah then I might tell the incoming engine company to pull the inch and three quarter.

    Who was it that coined the phrase "89% of your problems go away if you put out the fire?"
    Andy Fredricks? Ray McCormick?

    Andy Fredricks said that. And when you have the manpower, as quickly as they can get it in New York, the 2 1/2 seems like a great choice most of the time. We don't have 3 and 2 coming to every fire, we have 2 and wait for mutual aid so we came up with our own game plan. We do have a bomb line it is either an Elkhart Stinger or a Elkhart RAM depending on rig.
    To each his own. After all, the plan is to put out the fire and quickly, efficiently, and safely as possible.

    I am a firm believer in the we are winning, or we are losing, thought process. To me "Holding the fire" is losing.
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  7. #47
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.
    I wouldn't. Not only because of that car parked in front of where you want your stream to go, but also because at my department, the first rig doesn't make the plug. (huge gasps from the crowd) That gives you about a minute and a half ( conservative figure) to bounce water everywhere before your tank is dry. I'm of the mindset that on a residential fire, busting out the monitor is done right before the water curtains go up. Chenzo's attack plan sounds similar to ours with exposure protection in concert with fire attack. Check the house for extension, confine the fire to the garage and drown it.

    Besides, you're going to be dragging lines off to mop that up anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, on my #1 POC FD that would be a 2 inch pre-connect down the driveway to kill that fire and another inside the house to check for extension. On my #2 POC FD and my Career FD this would be a 1 3/4 down the driveway and another inside the house to check for extension.

    Honestly, it looks spectacular from the end of the driveway but I don't think that is really much of a fire at this point.

    I give the kid on the garden hose credit for trying to save the car. At least he is shielded by the house.
    I'd have to say the same, difference being FD#1 would be my fulltime dept. With my POC FD, a 1 3/4" would work because we have a 1000 gal. tank and Class A and B foam.

    We used to have a lot of older 3 and 4 car garages in the campus area that I used to work in. Standard method of attack was to use a 2" line for knock down, and then use an 1 1/2" off of the second engine for overhaul. Both had 1000 gal tanks. We rarely laid a supply line unless there was an exsposure.

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why?
    That detached, one-car garage is now a piece of schit that will be knocked down and scooped into a dumpster by the end of next week. What's wrong with deck gunning it and then pulling a booster line for mop up? I've deck gunned less.

    Sure you could get it with an inch and three quarter CAFS line (which we have by the way....) But again, given the visual that I have from the end of the driveway on arrival, I'm going to error on both the side of caution as well as efficiency. Big fire goes out a lot faster with big water. Period.

    IDK, the mini van in the way for one. Being in an area that the closest hydrant is coming on the tenders? About the only reason I can see for the deck gun is if you were a one man engine company.... AND, if you went up and drove the mini van away to get it out of the line of fire. (Which if I arrived in the command truck I may have done anyways if waiting on the first engine)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    A deck gun? WHY? 2 1/2? WHY?
    Because some people 1) get excited when they encounter what they think is "big fire" and go for the "big water" devices and/or 2) they don't fully understand the extinguishing ability of smaller lines (if properly set up and used effectively).


    Not saying that's specifically the case with anybody who has posted in this thread, but more of a generalized impression based on personal observation of and discussion with other fire service personnel. It seems to be more prevalent among people who lack regular experience with more significant fires.

  11. #51
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    I really don't take issue with the concept of blasting a quick slug from the deck gun. As long as you know you got more water/supply coming. That structure (garage) appears fully involved... so, put a lot of water on it quickly and try to protect the exposures.

    Would it be my choice?

    Hard to say from that one little picture that doesn't paint the whole story.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    As I recall, there was a city department (Houston?) who made a practice of dumping the tank water through the deck gun for a quick knockdown. Of course, they laid in, and had more help not far behind, so running out of water was not a significant problem for them.

    That said, if a quick hit from the deck gun makes what's still burning more managable, I'd say go for it. A minute at 500GPM still leaves us with half a tank, more or less. If our tanker isn't far behind, we'll have another 2000 gallons available in short order.

    In the end, it all depends on the overall situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    As I recall, there was a city department (Houston?) who made a practice of dumping the tank water through the deck gun for a quick knockdown. Of course, they laid in, and had more help not far behind, so running out of water was not a significant problem for them.

    That said, if a quick hit from the deck gun makes what's still burning more managable, I'd say go for it. A minute at 500GPM still leaves us with half a tank, more or less. If our tanker isn't far behind, we'll have another 2000 gallons available in short order.

    In the end, it all depends on the overall situation.
    I thinking that may have been Detroit.

    They would say that they "Are dumping the moniter/deck gun"

    The trick here is to not think of the flow from a deck gun in gallons per minute, but instead gallons per second.

    If an engine only have a 750g tank, as an example, and we dump that 500gpm master stream for a full minute on the fire, yes, we are using most of our tank water. However, if we only use that moniter to darken fire fire, which may only be 15 or 20 seconds, we are flowing 12.5 gps (gallons per second) or 188 gallons for 15 seconds of operations or 250 gallons for 20 seconds of master stream operation, which in both cases, leaves the majority of the tank for follow-up handline operations.

    I think that we if we can start looking at master stream operations within the context of "seconds", they become much more viable, even for departments with 500 and 750g tanks.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    As I recall, there was a city department (Houston?) who made a practice of dumping the tank water through the deck gun for a quick knockdown. Of course, they laid in, and had more help not far behind, so running out of water was not a significant problem for them.

    That said, if a quick hit from the deck gun makes what's still burning more managable, I'd say go for it. A minute at 500GPM still leaves us with half a tank, more or less. If our tanker isn't far behind, we'll have another 2000 gallons available in short order.

    In the end, it all depends on the overall situation.
    I am not going to tell anyone that their decision to hit that with a deck gun is wrong for them, I will tell you it would not be my choice. Why? Long narrow driveway with the house on one side and a row of bushes on the other side. It would call for some pretty good spotting on the driver's part to get a decent shot down the driveway. Secondly, as I stated before, while it looks spectacular I just don't see a lot of fire there. Come down the driveway with either a 1 3/4 or 2 inch linesweep the soffit line to knock down the fire on the exterior of the house and then move right to the main body of the fire working it through the top of the burn off garage door. Once a good chunk of it is knocked door get the rest of the door out of the way and finish it off. At the same time a second line to the front door of the house and a crew inside with hooks and a TIC to check for any extension into the attic area of the house.

    If I felt that this fire needed more than the 300 gpm our 2 inch handlines can flow I would go to a 3 inch line with the RAM pocket deluge on it capable of 500 gpm. The difference being we could take that right down the driveway to the garage. I just don't see it as necessary here though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am not going to tell anyone that their decision to hit that with a deck gun is wrong for them, I will tell you it would not be my choice. Why? Long narrow driveway with the house on one side and a row of bushes on the other side. It would call for some pretty good spotting on the driver's part to get a decent shot down the driveway. Secondly, as I stated before, while it looks spectacular I just don't see a lot of fire there. Come down the driveway with either a 1 3/4 or 2 inch linesweep the soffit line to knock down the fire on the exterior of the house and then move right to the main body of the fire working it through the top of the burn off garage door. Once a good chunk of it is knocked door get the rest of the door out of the way and finish it off. At the same time a second line to the front door of the house and a crew inside with hooks and a TIC to check for any extension into the attic area of the house.

    If I felt that this fire needed more than the 300 gpm our 2 inch handlines can flow I would go to a 3 inch line with the RAM pocket deluge on it capable of 500 gpm. The difference being we could take that right down the driveway to the garage. I just don't see it as necessary here though.
    Quick question ... What would be your "typical" response on the first-due engine? How quickly would the second due company arrive and how many members does it typically bring?

    Would your answer regarding the use of the deck gun change based on lower manpower numbers?
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I thinking that may have been Detroit.

    They are doing it now, but either Dallas or Houston was doing it way back in the early 80's and calling it a "Blitz Attack."

    They would say that they "Are dumping the moniter/deck gun"

    Pssst....Hey LA EDUCATOR it's spelled MONITOR.

    The trick here is to not think of the flow from a deck gun in gallons per minute, but instead gallons per second.

    The old rule of thumb was flow HALF of your tank water in the "Bitz Attack" and reserve the other half for exposure protection if the blitz failed. This allowed time for a water supply to be established. The fact was if you flowed at 1000 gpm for 30 seconds you flowed 500 gallons of a 1000 gallon booster tank (Common size in my area) and still had 500 gallons left for overhaul or exposure protection.

    If an engine only have a 750g tank, as an example, and we dump that 500gpm master stream for a full minute on the fire, yes, we are using most of our tank water. However, if we only use that moniter to darken fire fire, which may only be 15 or 20 seconds, we are flowing 12.5 gps (gallons per second) or 188 gallons for 15 seconds of operations or 250 gallons for 20 seconds of master stream operation, which in both cases, leaves the majority of the tank for follow-up handline operations.

    Seriously, the gallons per second sounds all scientific and everything, but it is unnecessarily complicated and in the end means nothing. It is far easier for a pump operator to watch the water tank gauge and flow 1/3 to 1/2 the tank water and shut off the deck gun, than to calculate something he can't monitor at the pump and flow by time.

    I think that we if we can start looking at master stream operations within the context of "seconds", they become much more viable, even for departments with 500 and 750g tanks.

    If that floats your boat, cool. To me it is far simpler to look at the tank gauge and shut off the gun when the gauge says you have flowed x amount of water.
    In the heat of battle unnecessary complications lead to greater possibilities of error. Watching the tank gauge makes it clear how much you used and how much is left.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-18-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quick question ... What would be your "typical" response on the first-due engine? How quickly would the second due company arrive and how many members does it typically bring?

    Typically it is 4, sometimes 5 or 6. We have 1000 gallons of water on the first due and a Class A foam system. To be brutally frank here if the first hoseline, flowing 200 gpm could knock this down and complete overhaul with 1000 gallons of water I would be seriously looking at far more training in fire attack. Second engine in the majority of cases is either right behind us, or within 5 minutes, carrying 3 to 5 firefighters.

    Would your answer regarding the use of the deck gun change based on lower manpower numbers?

    No, because attacking this fire with a 2 inch line could be accomplished with a 3 man crew. Two firefighters on the hose and a pump operator. Further as I stated abover I would go to the 3 inch line with the RAM before deck gunning this from the road. More accurate placement of the water and less waste.
    There are too many variables here that in my opinion make a deck gun hit from the road undesirable.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-18-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    In the heat of battle unnecessary complications lead to greater possibilities of error. Watching the tank gauge makes it clear how much you used and how much is left.
    Valid points. There is no reason that you can't tell your pump operator to flow until the tank hits 1/2, as long as the crew on the ground knows the game plan and is ready to move in at that point.

    The only reason that I posted this is that it is an excellent way to convince personnel that utiliazing the deck gun is aviable option for initial fire attack, especially when they bring out the "it will use my entire tank" card.

    It was a concept that I picked up last year at FDIC while attending the "Gallons Per Second" class, which discussed the use of 2.5" transistional lines as the first line off for intitial fire attack operations.

    And yes, I very much like the use of mathmatical calculations such as this when deciding what I will do during initial operations.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Valid points. There is no reason that you can't tell your pump operator to flow until the tank hits 1/2, as long as the crew on the ground knows the game plan and is ready to move in at that point.

    First of all, EVERYONE on the fireground should know the game plan. If they don't any action they take that isn't part of the game plan is fre lancing, and that is DANGEROUS.

    The only reason that I posted this is that it is an excellent way to convince personnel that utiliazing the deck gun is aviable option for initial fire attack, especially when they bring out the "it will use my entire tank" card.

    It is overly complicated for the fireground and the pump operator. Tell them you want 1000 gpm out of the deck gun until they get to half a tank and then shut it down. Everyone on handlines knows that as soon as the deck gun shuts down they move in. How hard is that? Make it clear to EVERYONE that until a water supply is established no more than half the tank will be used for a Blitz attack with the deluge. After that hard hit conditions will determine whether the handlines finish the attack or go to exposure protection. It doesn't get much easier than that.

    It was a concept that I picked up last year at FDIC while attending the "Gallons Per Second" class, which discussed the use of 2.5" transistional lines as the first line off for intitial fire attack operations.

    Again, it is totally irrelevant on the fireground, are you going to tell the pump operator to give you 12.5 gps for 30 seconds, or tell him to flow 750 gpm until he is at half a tank? It is the same thing you know and something the pump operator can relate to. The fact of the matter is GPS is a cool thing to talk about in the classroom, or at training, it has no relevance to fireground ops because nothing is measured that way, no nozzle, no flow meter, nothing. So while it sounds all scientific, it is nothing more than a new buzz word to make people sound smart when it does nothing more than complicate things. Tell me how saying flow 12.5 gps for 30 seconds is more relevant on the fireground than saying flow the deck gun at 750 gpm until you reach half a tank?

    And yes, I very much like the use of mathmatical calculations such as this when deciding what I will do during initial operations.

    BULL SCHIZEN! If you honestly expect me, or anyone else, to believe while you are doing a size-up you are calculating gallons per second you are delusional. Why are you wasting time with that? Frankly fire attack is pretty simple, small lines, 1 1/2, 30-150 gpm, medium lines 100-300 gpm, big lines 200-350 gpm, deluge guns 350-2000 gpm. Look at the fire, determine the flow needed, and apply it. Rinse, and repeat if necessary. (Sorry, that hit me as funny.)

    Again that number GPS, will mean nothing to anyone except you. Well, unless you have redone all your pump charts to read in GPS. You do have pump charts don't you?
    Theoretically, GPS sounds really cool, and in the classroom it can be used to show how a large flow, used for mere seconds, dumps a lot of water very quickly, with out using up your entire water supply in that heavy hit. On the fireground...not so relevant.
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    We might use the deck gun or not depending on who is in command. I guess depending on the engineer the deck gun might get used. Water in town is no problem for us as we always grab a hydrant on every fire. Rural fires are different where we have to use the tender. It would be tempting to drive to this fire and hit it with tank water and not grab the hydrant, but in our area the second truck is thirty minutes away. We cant drive by a hydrant.

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