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Thread: Fire Attack photo

  1. #61
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    Doesn't anyone use a booster line anymore?????


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Valid points. There is no reason that you can't tell your pump operator to flow until the tank hits 1/2, as long as the crew on the ground knows the game plan and is ready to move in at that point.

    The only reason that I posted this is that it is an excellent way to convince personnel that utiliazing the deck gun is aviable option for initial fire attack, especially when they bring out the "it will use my entire tank" card.

    It was a concept that I picked up last year at FDIC while attending the "Gallons Per Second" class, which discussed the use of 2.5" transistional lines as the first line off for intitial fire attack operations.

    And yes, I very much like the use of mathmatical calculations such as this when deciding what I will do during initial operations.
    Are you for real? They have a Gallons Per Second class? What the H E double toothpicks would anyone need to know or for that matter care about GPS.

    You shouldn't be trying to 'sell' the blitz attack on a scene. If your going to use it you should have already been training on the proper use and not flying by the seat of your pants. If you have been training like you should the only words to him/her should be 'blitz attack' and 'stop' if you get a knock down before he/she reaches his/her stopping point. Any other words to the engineer means that you have not been training.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Doesn't anyone use a booster line anymore?????
    NO. I prefer my firefighters very rare rather than well done.

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    La Pontificator said;
    The only reason that I posted this is that it is an excellent way to convince personnel that utiliazing the deck gun is aviable option for initial fire attack, especially when they bring out the "it will use my entire tank" card.
    Look at you all "available option" now. I would bet that you have never opened up a deck gun for a quick attack. How much water is wasted opening and closing the valve? You're acting like you are calculating fuel mileage for Dale Earnhardt Jr. I have trained on Blitz tactics and used it once, then we found out that the hydrant we were set to use was busted.
    We no longer use it because by the time one engineer is ready to open it up, the two FF's and Captain are in place with hoselines ready to go.

    Think of it like this.. It's like asking your date if she's on birth control after you've emptied your sack into.....well, you get the picture?
    IAFF

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    Was a department near me that used the Blitz attack very often. After losing around 10 buildings, they gave up on the tactic. Can it work? Sure. Just like a PPA can work. In the right situation, at the right time, with the fire doing the right thing and in the right location.

    I'll take a Blitzfire (or similar) over a deck gun attack just about any day.


    And no, wouldn't use a Blitzfire for the fire pictured in this thread.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I don't get it snowball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I don't get it snowball.

    That is what we all heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I don't get it snowball.


    What's not to get?

    Look at you all "available option" now. I would bet that you have never opened up a deck gun for a quick attack. How much water is wasted opening and closing the valve? You're acting like you are calculating fuel mileage for Dale Earnhardt Jr. I have trained on Blitz tactics and used it once, then we found out that the hydrant we were set to use was busted.

    He is saying that using a Blitz can make for a lot of wasted water. First, the water that slops as you are getting the pressure right. Secondly, the water you waste getting the stream on target.

    We no longer use it because by the time one engineer is ready to open it up, the two FF's and Captain are in place with hoselines ready to go.

    He is saying that a proficient firefighting team can rapidly and efficiently extend a hose line and be ready to go pretty damn quickly.

    Think of it like this.. It's like asking your date if she's on birth control after you've emptied your sack into.....well, you get the picture?

    Basically once you shoot your load you can't call it back and use it in another way.
    I think you need to get out more.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-19-2013 at 01:14 AM.
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  9. #69
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What's not to get?
    I think Conrad was wisecracking about the, uh, ejaculatory reference. (And by the way, that's not exactly the topic I want to hear from a guy called SNOWBALL.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Are you for real? They have a Gallons Per Second class? What the H E double toothpicks would anyone need to know or for that matter care about GPS.

    You shouldn't be trying to 'sell' the blitz attack on a scene. If your going to use it you should have already been training on the proper use and not flying by the seat of your pants. If you have been training like you should the only words to him/her should be 'blitz attack' and 'stop' if you get a knock down before he/she reaches his/her stopping point. Any other words to the engineer means that you have not been training.
    I was referring to using, in part, the theory advanced at that class to the Chief and Deputy Chief, who handles operational decsisions, in the office, and not on-scene.

    Going to a transistional attack obviously required thier approval. One of thier major concerns was water, even through 3 of our 5 first-out engines carry 1500g, and the GPS v. GPM discussion was an important one to convince them that using the 2 1/2" as the intitial attack line would not peter out the tank water.

    As far as the GPS, I beleive that it is an important one when discussing 2 1/2" lines or master streams for initial operations as it does address one ogf the primary objections, which is water usage.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #71
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Considering that the picture is probably best used as part of one of those "FAIL" posters, this has been a good discussion.

    As noted, we really can't see enough to get a full picture of the situation, and there are many variations on what the fire department response will be, so no answer is completely right, or completely wrong. What works for one may not work for another.

    As for a "Gallons per Second Class," at a fire show/conference, that sounds like exactly the type of session that would be offered - not because computing literal gallons per second on the fire scene has value, but because it sounds like it challenged attendees to take a different look at how they view and handle their available resources.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Look at you all "available option" now. I would bet that you have never opened up a deck gun for a quick attack. How much water is wasted opening and closing the valve? You're acting like you are calculating fuel mileage for Dale Earnhardt Jr. I have trained on Blitz tactics and used it once, then we found out that the hydrant we were set to use was busted.
    We no longer use it because by the time one engineer is ready to open it up, the two FF's and Captain are in place with hoselines ready to go.

    Think of it like this.. It's like asking your date if she's on birth control after you've emptied your sack into.....well, you get the picture?
    Actually I have utilized the master stream for initial fire attack in many situations, including structure, vehicle, truck, trash and brush fires, and have found it be quite successful most of the time. And most of the time, I was not connected to a hydrant.

    You are right in that there is a small amount of water wasted pressurring up the line, however, IMO, in most situations, that is a small price to pay when compared to the ability to deliver a large amount of water on the fire in a short period of time, especially in circumstances where the manpower does not exist to stretch and operate handlines.

    It has worked for me in the past. Your experiences may differ.

    It's effective in knocking down the fire and significantly reducing the risk to my crew.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Considering that the picture is probably best used as part of one of those "FAIL" posters, this has been a good discussion.

    As noted, we really can't see enough to get a full picture of the situation, and there are many variations on what the fire department response will be, so no answer is completely right, or completely wrong. What works for one may not work for another.

    As for a "Gallons per Second Class," at a fire show/conference, that sounds like exactly the type of session that would be offered - not because computing literal gallons per second on the fire scene has value, but because it sounds like it challenged attendees to take a different look at how they view and handle their available resources.
    And that what the class was designed for.

    The presentation was taught by a member of a department that had switched to a transistional attack philosphy, where a 2 1/2" line was operated for 15 to 30 seconds before crews went interior on most working sstructure fire. The GPS was discussed as a way to show the effectiveness of an initial exterior 2 1/2" line on most structure fires vs. the reality of how little water was actually used for this type of attack.

    This was taught at FDIC.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    He is saying that a proficient firefighting team can rapidly and efficiently extend a hose line and be ready to go pretty damn quickly.

    That is making the assumption that you have a profecient firefighting team to stretch the line.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #75
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    Thanks EastKyff. Sometimes my RAZOR sharp wit does not translate well in the written form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    He is saying that a proficient firefighting team can rapidly and efficiently extend a hose line and be ready to go pretty damn quickly.

    That is making the assumption that you have a profecient firefighting team to stretch the line.
    Well LA, you see we make the assumption that those that want to be firefighters strive towards becoming a proficient firefighting team. That means actually training, pulling hose in full gear until it becomes second nature, and frankly that doesn't take a college degree, a training course at LSU, or expensive training props. It takes a training officer that spends more time coming up with innovative, intresting ways to train, instead of "woe is me, we suck and always will excuses."

    If you would like, I can offer 3 or 4 hose movemnt drills that are a great learning tool and the competition between groups ding the drill makes it fun too.
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  17. #77
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    I would love to show my department your last statement Fyred. You have just solved the problem of the lack luster fire department. WE suck and always will. I think a lot of volunteer department, including mine, have that mentality. We have a dedicated training officer but he is in his seventies and likes to do powerpoints. Dedication, a drive to get better, and a thirst for knowledge is the mark of a good training officer. I believe a fire company's performance can be directly traced to the company leadership. I understand Wisconsin is nice but have you ever thought about retiring to North Central Montana?

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I would love to show my department your last statement Fyred. You have just solved the problem of the lack luster fire department. WE suck and always will. I think a lot of volunteer department, including mine, have that mentality. We have a dedicated training officer but he is in his seventies and likes to do powerpoints. Dedication, a drive to get better, and a thirst for knowledge is the mark of a good training officer. I believe a fire company's performance can be directly traced to the company leadership. I understand Wisconsin is nice but have you ever thought about retiring to North Central Montana?
    Conrad,

    I appreciate your kind words and frankly Montana, while a beautiful state, is in the opposite direction of where I want to go. I am looking for warmer.

    Let me offer this thought. Sometimes that change that makes a fire department come alive doesn't come from above, it comes from below. The firefighters demand change, demand progress, demand training, and either that change occurs or people simply lose interest and walk away.

    When I joined the FD where i live I was 19 years old, the next youngest guy was 35, and everyone after him was between 50 and 80 years old. Change was a dirty word because they were so set in their ways. Well, as the snot nosed kid I went to every training class I could, got an Associate Degree in Fire Science and I pushed them a wee bit, well maybe more than a wee bit!! LOL! A lucky step for me was my Dad got elected Chief and he had come from a VERY progressive FD in Illinois where we were from. Then some of my friends started to join the FD and now we had a core of young hard chargers and a Chief that was open to change. Most of the older guys retired, some should have years before, and we started moving forward. Training got better, as money became available equipment got better, and more younger people wanted to be involved because we started being very visible doing training and fundraising. How much time did it take to do a complete turn around? A long time, it surely did not happen over night. And change and improvements are still happening.

    My point? Someone has to be the spark to get it going, they need allies to keep it going, and support from above if possible. How about this idea, write up a drill, a practical skills drill and go and talk to the training officer about helping him and present your idea. he may say sure or he may buck you, but you won't know until you try. Good luck, I know what you are going through and it is rough as heck to fight out of if no one else sees a problem.
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  19. #79
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    Thanks Fyred. I have been waiting for the leadership to change, so you are right it sometime takes someone from below. I told the chief if the dept. would not send me to the FF1 academy, I would pay for it myself. He said he could find the $1400 and send me this June. I will be the first FF to go the academy from our dept. The chief then wants to make me assistant training officer. I have been watching Fire Engineering's training minutes and have been working up drills and some on the dept. are getting excited about the training as well. The problem I have is some members say they want to stay defensive firefighters because it takes too much work to get good and stay good. At the same time they say we are as good as the paid dept. down the road. I am hoping they look at training as I do, a catch 22. When we get a taste of training, we realize how crummy we are and want to get better. The first step is to recognize you have a problem! I think I can understand where the one guy on this post is coming from, but to accept the situation and not work to become better is not acceptable. IMHO he has an obligation to his department and his community.
    Last edited by conrad427; 04-19-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  20. #80
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Thanks Fyred. I have been waiting for the leadership to change, so you are right it sometime takes someone from below. I told the chief if the dept. would not send me to the FF1 academy, I would pay for it myself. He said he could find the $1400 and send me this June. I will be the first FF to go the academy from our dept. The chief then wants to make me assistant training officer. I have been watching Fire Engineering's training minutes and have been working up drills and some on the dept. are getting excited about the training as well. The problem I have is some members say they want to stay defensive firefighters because it takes too much work to get good and stay good. At the same time they say we are as good as the paid dept. down the road. I am hoping they look at training as I do, a catch 22. When we get a taste of training, we realize how crummy we are and want to get better. The first step is to recognize you have a problem! I think I can understand where the one guy on this post is coming from, but to accept the situation and not work to become better is not acceptable. IMHO he has an obligation to his department and his community.
    Initially, when you get this going, go slow with change. Ease a few things in and when you see who supports you and who bucks you you will know the path to take then. If a majority support you then move ahead at a faster pace, if you meet huge resisitance use baby steps and make the changes a little more gently. I know that may seem frustrating but it is better than constanty bashing your head against the wall.

    I have some drills that get the point across on things like hose movement and search and other things that are fun and you can add competition to it to get the guys motivated. Let me know if you are interested. Or if you have other areas of concern let me know and maybe we can brainstorm some good drills.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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