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  1. #81
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    I've been there, too. The department I joined at age 17 was still kind of stuck in the '70s at that time (and it was the '90s, you smarty butts). But I was one of a huge influx of young guys who took the whole place kicking and screaming into the modern era, led primarily by the chief's grandson who is my age.

    Our chief was a dinosaur, but he knew he was a dinosaur and was willing to let us move the department forward. In time things changed dramatically and it's a top-notch outfit now. Who's the chief? The grandson, of course. And when the old chief died in 2008, he got a ride to the cemetery atop a 2007 custom pumper that was a far cry from the '75 Ford that was first due when I joined.

    The change came from below, but it really did take a chief who could see that the future didn't belong to him, or even to us younger guys, but to the people of the county. So even though he didn't always think all the changes were necessary (and some weren't), he went along with it in the interest of allowing progress in an organization that was bigger than any one person.

    Here's to Chief John Nation, 1932-2008.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
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  2. #82
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    EastKyFF,

    I hear ya Brother. When I joined in 1977 we were stuck somewhere between 1950 and the Twilight Zone. We were running a 1950 Ford F7 with a 500 gpm front mount Barton American pump first out, second out was a 1937 Ford Darley with a 500 gpm Class B midship pump, and a 1949 Mack EFU converted fuel tanker as our tender. By the way, even being a Mack fan, the EFU designation though official and from Mack always stood for "Etxtremely F***ING Ugly", man that truck had a face even momma would have been strained to love!! We had 6 rubber turn out coats, 6 MSA melt-away helmets, no boots, no gloves and 2 Scott Pak 1 scba with 1800 psi steel cylinders. Ah yes, the glory years...
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  3. #83
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    EastKyFF,

    I hear ya Brother. When I joined in 1977 we were stuck somewhere between 1950 and the Twilight Zone. We were running a 1950 Ford F7 with a 500 gpm front mount Barton American pump first out, second out was a 1937 Ford Darley with a 500 gpm Class B midship pump, and a 1949 Mack EFU converted fuel tanker as our tender. By the way, even being a Mack fan, the EFU designation though official and from Mack always stood for "Etxtremely F***ING Ugly", man that truck had a face even momma would have been strained to love!! We had 6 rubber turn out coats, 6 MSA melt-away helmets, no boots, no gloves and 2 Scott Pak 1 scba with 1800 psi steel cylinders. Ah yes, the glory years...
    Hey, I about peed my pants with joy when we got a 1962 Ford at my station. As far behind as we were, we sure thought we were the sh**. I guess that's how we were able to improve. We felt like we were worthy of better things, so we sought them out and worked hard to achieve them.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well LA, you see we make the assumption that those that want to be firefighters strive towards becoming a proficient firefighting team. That means actually training, pulling hose in full gear until it becomes second nature, and frankly that doesn't take a college degree, a training course at LSU, or expensive training props. It takes a training officer that spends more time coming up with innovative, intresting ways to train, instead of "woe is me, we suck and always will excuses."

    Well, I don't know of any training officer on my VFD like that.

    The fact is we spent over 3 hours just last week at training stretching and moving hose through the bays at the station. The month before we did a similair hose deployment drill lasing just as long. And in the next 2 months we have at least 3 drills which will conentrate heavily on deploying, handling and operating with hos, including a drill just for 2 1/2" and 3" attack lines.

    In addition to that, we have sent 5 members to outgside training dealing with engine company and fire attack operations ..... in other words deploying, handling and moving hose.

    Saying all that, I fully realize that with all of our other training needs, there is a limit as to how many drills we can schedule involving hose and hose handling. And I also know our guys, and have a pretty good handle on, as a team, what the limitations of the department will be.You may call that excuses, but I call that reality.

    If you want to call tha "Woe is me", have at it. The bottom line is that I have a pretty good handle on both what most of the members allow for time for training and the importance of the fire department in their lives as well as how hard the department leadership is willing to drive the members in terms of training.Yes, they want and expect improvement, and we headed in that direction, but as agroup, we will have limits and I have no issues operating within those limits.


    If you would like, I can offer 3 or 4 hose movemnt drills that are a great learning tool and the competition between groups ding the drill makes it fun too.
    I'd love for you to send them to me.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #85
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    On our 1988 Mack CF with top mount pump (1000gal tank), as the operator I could get the pump in gear and flow water out that deck gun (that I could manually control from the pump panel) quicker than the guys could pull the lines.

    How do I know? I did it once at a fully involved garage. Worked great.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #86
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    If you would like, I can offer 3 or 4 hose movemnt drills that are a great learning tool and the competition between groups ding the drill makes it fun too.

    Please share. Always looking for new stuff.

  7. #87
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    As much as I would liketo post those drills right now I am off to a HUGE retirement party for the guys who left late last year and very early this year from my career FD. I will post them tomorrow if I catch a break at work.

    They are pretty basic scenario based drills that really cost nothing to do.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-19-2013 at 04:12 PM.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  8. #88
    Forum Member Miller337's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Hey, I peed my pants.
    Bro. I told you man get the Depends no will know your wearing them if you wear them properly this time. Remember, Depends THEN pants.

  9. #89
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Bro. I told you man get the Depends no will know your wearing them if you wear them properly this time. Remember, Depends THEN pants.
    Whatevs. Depends are supposed to protect your pants, so how can they do that on the INside? Do you wear a helmet inside your head? Noooooo. Come on.
    Miller337 likes this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  10. #90
    Forum Member Miller337's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Whatevs. Depends are supposed to protect your pants, so how can they do that on the INside? Do you wear a helmet inside your head? Noooooo. Come on.
    Strangely enough your illogical argument makes some sense, I like it.

  11. #91
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    okay here is one drill I have done.

    Set up our forcible entry prop, have a line stretched and charged, set a cone up at the end of the course.

    A team of 2 firefighters approaches the forcible entry mock-up and forces the door. A team of 3 firefighters manuevers around an obstacle course with the charged line. While the hose crew is doing that the focible entry team isfiring up the PPV fan and awaiting orders to move it into position to "Vent" through the prop. Once the crew has reached the end of the obstacle course and knocked down the cone the fan is moved into position to vent.

    A simple down and dirty scenario based drill.

    More to follow.

    The forcible entry prop was built inhouse and the cost was minimal.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-20-2013 at 11:55 AM.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  12. #92
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I ran another drill I called the Blitz Attack Drill.

    Roughly 100 feet from the road I set up 5 cones about 10 feet apart.

    The Engine starts at the hydrant with a FF left at the hydrant to make the LDH connection as the engine lays out. (We dress a hydrant with 2-2 1/2 inch gates valves and the LDH hooked to the steamer) The drill calls for a 200 foot lay of 5 inch. Once the lay is complete one firefighter goes to the hose bed and breaks the 5 inch and hooks it into the rear intake. Simultaneously to that one firfighter mounts the top of the rig and brings the deck gun down and around to face the cones, the pump operator engages the pump and the deck gun is used to knock down 3 cones. While the deck gun is being used the water supply is established and that firefighter and the 5th crew member stretch a handline to hit the other 2 cones once the deck gun is shut down.

    This drill was so popular that I expected to do it 3 times and the FFs themselves wanted to do it 6 times before we were done. They wanted to get it done faster and smoother and they did. It is a good quick hit drill that teaches how everything is interconnected and team work is everything.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  13. #93
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Because some people 1) get excited when they encounter what they think is "big fire" and go for the "big water" devices and/or 2) they don't fully understand the extinguishing ability of smaller lines (if properly set up and used effectively).


    Not saying that's specifically the case with anybody who has posted in this thread, but more of a generalized impression based on personal observation of and discussion with other fire service personnel. It seems to be more prevalent among people who lack regular experience with more significant fires.
    Absolutely. "Big fire" does not result from a 12 x 24 detached garage.
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Absolutely. "Big fire" does not result from a 12 x 24 detached garage.
    I disagree,Most of the time you are right ,But I have seen some garages so full of crap that unless you wanted to burn it down slow, it took a 2-1/2" to knock it down.
    ?

  15. #95
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Absolutely. "Big fire" does not result from a 12 x 24 detached garage.
    I agree that for the vast majority of firefighters this would not be a "Big Fire." But for some firefighters that see maybe 1 to 5 fires a year a structure fire like that would be something they talked about, and in fact bragged about for years. You know, the"Big One of 2013!" So like much else in life "Big" is relative. To me this is a one line for the fire and another at the front door if it was needed inside the house while checking for extension. Not much of a fire at all if the first line is placed in operation quickly, efficiently, and correctly, kills the fire in short order
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I agree that for the vast majority of firefighters this would not be a "Big Fire." But for some firefighters that see maybe 1 to 5 fires a year a structure fire like that would be something they talked about, and in fact bragged about for years. You know, the"Big One of 2013!" So like much else in life "Big" is relative. To me this is a one line for the fire and another at the front door if it was needed inside the house while checking for extension. Not much of a fire at all if the first line is placed in operation quickly, efficiently, and correctly, kills the fire in short order
    We actually agree.

    A big fire is relative.

    For my VFD, that sees, on a bust year, 2-3 structure fires, this would be a significant incident , and would pose a VERY significant challenge as their experience level is quite limited. In fact, if the "right folks" were not on the run there is a high likelihood that this garage fire would easily result in the loss of the house.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    And before anyone jumps on LA - that describes pretty much all of the departments in my area - five actual workers would constitute a busy year. I've seen years when my department went without a working structure fire of our own - anything we got was on mutual aid. One chief was in office for two years and never commanded a working fire.

    I'd be surprised if we have 500 structures in our entire 37 square mile district. And many of those are small outbuildings.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  18. #98
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We actually agree.

    A big fire is relative.

    For my VFD, that sees, on a bust year, 2-3 structure fires, this would be a significant incident , and would pose a VERY significant challenge as their experience level is quite limited. In fact, if the "right folks" were not on the run there is a high likelihood that this garage fire would easily result in the loss of the house.
    Why couldn't your VFD handle this fire? It is primarily an exterior attack on the garage, with overhaul, and simultaneously checking for extension in the house. The ONLY reason for losing this house at this point is NOT going inside at all to check for and kill any extending fire. For crying out loud, checking for extension is 2 guys with a TIC if you have one and a couple of hooks, and another guy with a hoseline in case you actually find fire in the house.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Why couldn't your VFD handle this fire? It is primarily an exterior attack on the garage, with overhaul, and simultaneously checking for extension in the house. The ONLY reason for losing this house at this point is NOT going inside at all to check for and kill any extending fire. For crying out loud, checking for extension is 2 guys with a TIC if you have one and a couple of hooks, and another guy with a hoseline in case you actually find fire in the house.

    Let's start ot with the basics ..... Math. We currently have 12-13 active members, most of which are not available during the day, which is when this fire occurred. It very easily could occur and no officers would be available - The Chief would be on his day shift rotation and his job, the Deputy Chief and Captain would be at work in the neighboring city department (they would respond in automatic aid but would count towards the city's staffing of 5) and I would be at work at my full-time gig. That would likely leave a WPFD7 response of 2-3. Period. The neighboring city would be coming in initially with their entire on duty staffing of 5.

    That means a response in the first 10-12 minutes of 7-8.

    One IC. One Pump Operator, but more than likely 2. Initial attack team on the garage of 2. Team for the interior of the house @ 2. One 2-person team to open up the exterior of the house. Maybe ... just maybe we would have the bare minimum required, without RIT, safety and any other required tasks, assuming that they had the training and experience level to support minimum manning operations.

    Throw in availability of the Chief, Deputy Chief and/or Captain, or make it a weekend daytime fire where I may also be available, and yes, that significantly changes the scenario in terms of bodies on scene and leadership, experience, training and command staffing.

    Make this an evening fire and now our response jumps to 5-7 plus initial AMA response of 5. A little more manageable but still significant limitations of training and experience with our responders

    Training ..... I am going to be very honest here and say that in all likelihood, depending once again on the shift schedule of the neighboring city, the folks that would be responding on our side during the weekday in limited to what they can do before the arrival of the neighboring city department because of age (we have one driver only), training and experience. That's simply the reality.

    Once they arrive, we now have a pretty fair amount of both training and experience. Until then, depending on the availability of the 1, 2 and 3 positions in the department, that is simply not the case.

    We don't own a TIC. WE are planning to buy one with the new engine we are specifying, but right now, not an option. I am unsure if the neighboring city owns one.

    The fact is, depending on circumstances, this fire could very well be out of our abilities, and may be very well beyond what you see by the time the AMA resources arrives. That is simply being realistic with our response.

    As far as my combo department this would be a fairly routine job due to a much greater response in terms of members, far more experience, better training, stronger guaranteed command presence and better tools such a multiple TICs.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-21-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Combo department ......

    Volunteer Department ......
    Please refrain from responding on this entire forum as it is titled "Firefighters Forum."

    When a forum is created that is titled "Pretend Firefighters Forum", "Faux Firefighters Forum", "Firefighter in Name Only Forum" or "Pub Ed Fat Asses Who Also Claim to Be Firefighters Because They Have a Piece of Paper Forum" your input will be greatly appreciated and maybe even valuable to those of a similar mindset.

    Until then, please move along and let those of us who were actually firefighters handle the commentary.
    SPFDRum likes this.
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