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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have limited number of people with limited training, and even more importantly, with very limited experience base.

    Sorry but I would not say that this is a "basic skill set" fire as it has possible extension into the structure. A standalone garage, yes.

    In fact if it was a standalone garage with no exposures, at this point it might be better for the homeowner to simply let it burn. I would in fact, likely ask them that so to make the cleanup easier for them, as all the contents are destroyed.
    Until the fire is knocked down on the grarge no one knows if the fire has extended into the home. Knock the garage down and have a look at the house. Cool down the sides of the house and go in and investigate the house. Get in the attic or pull the ceiling whatever you do. If it's in the house then it's time to go to plan B. To many people spend to much time going through the what if's, as a very smart man said put the fire out and most of your problems go away.

    Are you truthfully telling me that if you rolled up on this (seeing what we all see from one picture) with you and 4 green kids that you would right this home off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you would just ignore the likely extension into the home?
    No, ignoring something sounds more your speed. This might be hard to wrap your mind around, but our guys actually ****ing fight fire....like they're fighting fire!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you would just ignore the likely extension into the home?

    Your 3 guys could handle that?

    And by the way who's commanding the incident and who's pumping the truck? If you have a tank of less than 1000g, who made your hydrant? Who's your relief or are they all good operating in August in 103 degrees and 60% humidity without relief?

    Just curious.
    I'll answer for how we would do it. Engine driver, captain, firefighter, volunteer (if happened to be one in the station) and a tanker driver. That will give us the magic 5 we are looking for. Engine drops anchor, captain is going to do a size up, firefighter and volunteer pulls a preconnect, and the tanker driver and engineer are getting set up to draft. (SEEING WHAT WE CAN FROM THIS PICTURE) They will make an attack on the garage, cooling off the house and car. The captain is going to be looking at the house as soon as he can get around the corner to look at it. He will have a pretty good idea from that look if he has extention into the home. Once the fire in the garage is knocked down the firefighter will contuine to work on the garage and the captain and volunteer will go in the house to check for extension. The captain retained command as he was in what we call fast attack mode.

    You have stated you would have more help coming as would most anyone else. So we have reached the point of more help arriving.

    And yes our guys can and do work in 103 degree heat and 60% humidity. We will a lot of the time go through 2 bottles before we get a break. It's called conditioning, having a phyiscal fitness program, and having yearly phyiscals.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You really believe that this fire would only take 5 members, including an IC and pump operator to control?

    I have no idea what the experience and training level of your members are, but no, there is no way that a mixed group of 5 of our people, on my VFD, could manage this fire and i wouldn't be stupid enough to try if that was all that I had.

    I have no issues in saying that.
    Now you know why many of us believe you have no business on this forum since it is called the "Firefighters Forum."

    Not the "Gasbag Pretend Firefighter Forum."
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you would just ignore the likely extension into the home?

    Your 3 guys could handle that?

    And by the way who's commanding the incident and who's pumping the truck? If you have a tank of less than 1000g, who made your hydrant? Who's your relief or are they all good operating in August in 103 degrees and 60% humidity without relief?

    Just curious.
    The truck has 1000 gallons on it, and 2nd due will be there soon enough with more water. Engine operator would call the shots, which from this picture is cool that house off and put the garage out. One man on each crosslay.

    Last June we fought a fire in a 500 foot long chicken house for about two hours and it was 106 degrees when we rolled up. The humidity was higher than 60%, too.

    I'm not saying fighting it with 3 is preferred, I'm saying they could. We've got a damned good group of guys.
    Last edited by FF-Andy; 04-21-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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  6. #126
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You really believe that this fire would only take 5 members, including an IC and pump operator to control?

    I have no idea what the experience and training level of your members are, but no, there is no way that a mixed group of 5 of our people, on my VFD, could manage this fire and i wouldn't be stupid enough to try if that was all that I had.

    I have no issues in saying that.
    And this is the problem. Perhaps not ideal, but this should be able to be handled by a single 3-4 man engine company.

    Hell, give me a driver and a guy that has never done and we'll still put it out.

    If you are the fire department training officer and you couldn't deal with this scenario with 5 guys at your department, your doing it very, very wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    And this is the problem. Perhaps not ideal, but this should be able to be handled by a single 3-4 man engine company.

    Hell, give me a driver and a guy that has never done and we'll still put it out.

    If you are the fire department training officer and you couldn't deal with this scenario with 5 guys at your department, your doing it very, very wrong.
    Can I get a AMEN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you would just ignore the likely extension into the home?

    Your 3 guys could handle that?

    And by the way who's commanding the incident and who's pumping the truck? If you have a tank of less than 1000g, who made your hydrant? Who's your relief or are they all good operating in August in 103 degrees and 60% humidity without relief?

    Just curious.
    The key word in the post that got us to the number of 5 firefighters would be "control". Five actual firefighters could easily get this fire under control rather quickly. In conjunction with and/or following knocking down the main body of fire (aka under control), checking for extension into the house would be performed. Most fire departments would likely have more units/personnel responding to this incident and those personnel could be used for relief and overhaul if needed.


    Here's one way my department would handle this with 5 guys. Our Deputy Chief would probably arrive first and start the size-up and relay pertinent information. First unit would go straight in. Firefighter #1 would stretch an attack line (1-3/4") into place while driver #1 would initiate pump operations. The Deputy and/or the driver would likely assist with this in some fashion. The second unit (arriving shortly after the first) would pick up the hydrant. The firefighter (FF #2) on that unit would make the hydrant connection while driver #2 breaks the supply line and passes it to driver #1 to make the connection to the pump. Driver #2 would finish gearing up and then back up firefighter #1. While this is happening, firefighter #1 would already be hitting the fire with tank water.

    Once finished with the hydrant, firefighter #2 would be directed to check for extension in the house. At this point, the fire attack should be making good progress. Once the water supply is established, driver #1 would finish gearing up and be directed as needed by the DC. At this point, with only one line off, the DC would be able to monitor the pump and command the incident.

    If off-duty personnel had been requested to respond, they would be directed as needed when they arrive, including assuming the pump operator duties from the DC. At this point, we're likely 10-15 minutes into the incident and the fire is under control.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 04-21-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In fact if it was a standalone garage with no exposures, at this point it might be better for the homeowner to simply let it burn. I would in fact, likely ask them that so to make the cleanup easier for them, as all the contents are already destroyed and the structure at this point is likely not structurally savable.
    If this were my garage and you asked me that question instead of just putting the fire out....................well, I'll just say that I'd make sure you never have the opportunity to ask it again in my town.

    Maybe you should think about how "easy" this fire really is.
    Maybe you should think about how "hard" this fire really ISN'T?
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    DAMN IT MAN, LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION! It is so simple even a Bossier Parrish pub ed ought to be able to do it.

    More than enough for this fire.

    Agree, for initial operations, depending on the training and experience. The simple fact is we (the Training Captain and myself) have gotten the firefighters far better trained than they were but they still have very little or no real world experience. And several of them have NO, simply because we have very, very few fires.

    That's the reality. It's my responsibility to realistically assess the capabilities of my crew.


    If they can't handle a simple bread and butter fire like this then what CAN they do? A trash can in the park?

    One IC. One Pump Operator, but more than likely 2. Initial attack team on the garage of 2. Team for the interior of the house @ 2. One 2-person team to open up the exterior of the house. Maybe ... just maybe we would have the bare minimum required, without RIT, safety and any other required tasks, assuming that they had the training and experience level to support minimum manning operations.

    1pump operator, why you would need 2 is beyond me...especially since you said you have 1500 gallon booster tanks. 2 on the main attack line, advance down the driveway, sweep the house to knock down visible fire, then kill the garage fire. 2 to check inside the house, Hoseline to the back room, most likely kitchen, we have TICs on both FDs but they are NOT required, scan the ceiling if any heat pull ceiling to take a look. If no TIC pull the ceiling to take a look. Any later arriving firefighters would be utilized as needed, RIT, additional hoselines, overhaul.

    This is a nothing fire if you don't spend 10 minutes in the street assigning IC vests.

    Policy is that once the tanker arrives the first due engines works off the tanker and shuts down it's booster tank, Hence the 2 pump operators. the other option would be utilize the neighboring city's engine, which has around the pump Class A foam capabilities, with our engine or tanker supplying it ... hence ... 2 pump operators.

    Seriously, if you can't knock this fire down with 1500 gallons on the engine what are they doing with the water, watering the lawn?

    The scenario you described would likely occur at my combo department, with far more experience, and go smooth as silk. Not so with my VFD. Simply not there yet. We have been training more aggressively and we have been sending them to more hands-on outside schools, but still a work in progress. Simply not enough fires to get them to work in under pressure yet.

    WHY are you making this more complicated than it has to be? Sweep the house on the way to the garage, put the water in the top of the garage dooe where the door is burned off to knock down the fire. Once that occurs pull open the rest of the door and finish the fire off.


    Throw in availability of the Chief, Deputy Chief and/or Captain, or make it a weekend daytime fire where I may also be available, and yes, that significantly changes the scenario in terms of bodies on scene and leadership, experience, training and command staffing.

    If your guys can't handle a simple fire like this without the entire command staff and you being there your training program sucks. Most of this fire is simple automatic tactics that don't call for a step by step action plan having to be drawn out before the fire can be fought.

    WHY DO YOU NEED THEM? I can't tell you the number of fires I have fought as a volly withan LT or captain in command and some fires initially no "Officer" at all. Sounds like you need to do some initial tactics training and First arriving OIC training.

    And I wouldn't be available either.

    They simply are not at the level that they could not be able to work without an officer. That's not saying that we are THAT important but they simply are not at the point that they could make those sort of tactical decisions. When the AMA came in it would not be an issue as they would assume command if an officer wasn't on scene.


    3 years after you joined and became their messiah they can't handle ths fire without someone holding their hand and leading them step by step in fighting this fire? PATHETIC. What progress have you made if this fire at the stage of the photo is in your mind a loser to the point of losing the house.

    Make this an evening fire and now our response jumps to 5-7 plus initial AMA response of 5. A little more manageable but still significant limitations of training and experience with our responders

    So essentially more people would be there to burn the house down?

    Again, all I hear is excuses for why you believe it is okay to burn this completely savable house down.

    It's always OK to burn something down. It happens.Savable depends on resources, and sometimes luck and timing.

    NOT IF YOU DID IT BECAUSE YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT IS INCAPABLE OF THE MOST BASIC OF FIRE FIGHTING SKILLS.

    Then TRAIN THEM. Excuses don't do the job.


    And we are, but we are not there yet. And likely will not be there in the short term.

    3 years is not "in the short term."

    Started training much more aggressively in the fall of 2011 under the old Chief. Continued it in the spring and fall of 2012 under the new/current Chief.

    And apparently a single car detached garage is still beyond their capabilities.

    We have made progress but have very limited access to live fire training, which is the biggest issue. Also the small number of active members means small training nights, which makes anything but very basic evolutions very difficult.

    This is for the most part YOUR TYPE OF FIRE, exterior streams.

    Again, this late winter and spring we have trained aggressively with a lot of hands-on drills. They have seen live fire at a few outside schools and a couple of times at the neighboring LSU facility. We have my combo department's burn building and LSU Pine Country's burn building as well as a live car fire night scheduled for May, plus a couple going to another outside school with live fire. Just did an aggressive hose handling drill the other night and 2 1/2"'s next week. But we are still missing the real-world fire component, and that is a major piece.


    If you never even attempt to fight the "Real World Fires" you have where will they get experience?

    You have been on this FD for a while now...Why are they no better today than when you took on the training officer role?

    About 3 years. And I'm not the training officer, but him and I act together, basically planning the schedule and splitting the training nights.

    We are much better but still a fair piece to go. That's the reality.


    I would say you need to get them out of the starting blocks otherwise you will get no where, for ever.

    It isn't required for this fire, it would just make the job easier. We did this type of work for decades without a TIC.

    Agree. But with the level of experience, without the AMA department, hunting for extension would be a significant challenge for most of our non-officers. Again, real world experience that simply cannot be taught in a classroom or a concrete burn building or a Conex.

    Seriously, you must be joking here. Take a pike pole, go into the room by the wall where the fire impinged on the exterior of the house. Drive the pike pole through the ceiling dry wall, turn the hook a quarter turn, pull down, repeat as necessary. I would think even under your leadership this is a do-able skill set.

    One line down the driveway eliminates 90% of the problem. If you can't lay out and operate one exterior attack line close the doors, sell the equipment and build a park for the community. At least that will be real.

    More of a challenge than you may think. Besides department policy in this case would clearly be the 2 1/2" transitional line, not an 1 3/4". I would hope they would strongly consider use the the deck gun, then transition to the 2 1/2", though I would not fault them for following policy with the 2 1/2" first as that is the procedure we are training.

    Then pull a 2 1/2 down the driveway, kneel on it and kill the fire. WOW!! What a nightmare that was tactically!!

    Sure it would. Assuming you didn't stop people from fighting the fire and entering the house to check for extension.

    If it represents significant risk of injury, I would.

    Essentially your cop out answer for not teaching people to do the job because you won't do it yourself.

    Just more of the same from you LA.

    Yup.
    I had hoped you weren't as ridiculous as this topic makes you sound. After reading your responses in here and the other topic I can only say that in my opinion you are an embarassment to the fire service. A new wave uber safety enabler for a department you haven't made enough improvements in in 3 years to be able to handle a garage fire without the chiefs being there. Seriously why dosn't the FD shut down during the day if they are unable to act without chief officers on scene?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-22-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  11. #131
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    I don't understand how someone can justify not fighting a fire because they don't fight many fires. Very few of us fought a structure fire before we joined a fire department so how can you say don't fight the fire until you have fought fire? What is the magic number of houses that need to burn down with everyone watching before you can start to fight the actual fire?
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I had hoped you weren't as ridiculous as this topic makes you sound. After reading your responses in here and the other topic I can only say that in my opinion you are an embarassment to the fire service. A new wave uber safety enabler for a department you haven't made enough improvements in in 3 years to be able to handle a garage fire without the chiefs being there. Seriously why dosn't the FD shut down during the day if they are unable to act with chief officers on scene?
    In my experience, a Chief being on the scene generally has little to do with the final outcome of the incident - especially one like this.
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    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I had hoped you weren't as ridiculous as this topic makes you sound. After reading your responses in here and the other topic I can only say that in my opinion you are an embarassment to the fire service. A new wave uber safety enabler for a department you haven't made enough improvements in in 3 years to be able to handle a garage fire without the chiefs being there. Seriously why dosn't the FD shut down during the day if they are unable to act with chief officers on scene?
    1. I don't define garage fires as simple. Nothing simple about a building that truly contains, or has the potential to contain everything up and including pool chemicals.

    2. Would be a fairly straight forwad fire without what I think is already some extension into the attic beyond just the soffit.

    3. The 2 1/2" which would be pulled for this fire as the initial line per policy would knock down most of the fire in the garage. That's not the issue with this fire, It's the house and the other stuff that we don't see in the picture such as possible exposures to the right and the rear. I'm not going to look at this picture and assume a "simple" garage fire. You give me a bigger picture or maybe a conversation with the owner about any surprises and maybe I would.

    4. Last I knew I wasn't a Messiah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF-Andy View Post
    No, ignoring something sounds more your speed. This might be hard to wrap your mind around, but our guys actually ****ing fight fire....like they're fighting fire!
    This has nothing to do with our guys not liking working a fire. They do. It has everything to do with enough members showing up to fight the fire safely and have all of them go to work the next day.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Until the fire is knocked down on the grarge no one knows if the fire has extended into the home. Knock the garage down and have a look at the house. Cool down the sides of the house and go in and investigate the house. Get in the attic or pull the ceiling whatever you do. If it's in the house then it's time to go to plan B. To many people spend to much time going through the what if's, as a very smart man said put the fire out and most of your problems go away.

    Are you truthfully telling me that if you rolled up on this (seeing what we all see from one picture) with you and 4 green kids that you would right this home off?
    As everything is situational, I would not write it off, though depending on how much fire has gotten into the attic the realistic truth is there may not be enough manpower available, without calling in resources beyond my VFD and the AMA department to work it until it has progresses through the structure. That is just a simple travel time issue which I cannot change.

    I would expect that the initial 2 1/2" per policy would take care of much of the garage pretty quickly, assuming that it was deployed in at timely manner. However I believe that there is already some significant extension into the house, or at least will be by the time hoses get on the ground and into service.

    The next in department would either be my combo department, with a travel time of 10-15 minutes, or the department to the north. If it was in the northern part of the district, that department could provide very, very little in the way of interior-qualified manpower. In that case, my combo department would be called with an ETA of 15-20ish minutes.

    And yes, I would have some serious issues regarding being offensive with 4 green members and 1 experienced members. That would be a significant safety issue and would significantly affect how i approached this fire.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 02:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    And this is the problem. Perhaps not ideal, but this should be able to be handled by a single 3-4 man engine company.

    Hell, give me a driver and a guy that has never done and we'll still put it out.

    If you are the fire department training officer and you couldn't deal with this scenario with 5 guys at your department, your doing it very, very wrong.
    And I'm sure that your crews see more fire in amonth than we see in 2 years. But hey, that has no bearing on your perspective, right?

    By the way, I was in Memphis last week. Taught an NFA class in Tunica. I guess I should have looked you up. On second thought, naaaaaaaaa.

    I did like your downtown though. Pretty nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    I don't understand how someone can justify not fighting a fire because they don't fight many fires. Very few of us fought a structure fire before we joined a fire department so how can you say don't fight the fire until you have fought fire? What is the magic number of houses that need to burn down with everyone watching before you can start to fight the actual fire?
    Depends on the training and experience of the responding crew, how well they have performed in similar situations as well as the resources and command response and presence of the department.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Well, if a person was worried about it I would have dispatch hit the tones until the batteries went dead in everyone's pagers. Call the neighboring departments and fight fire as best you can until they show up. I come from a very rural area with staffing problems too, but even without officers we would still put some water on the fire. I look at this picture and say to myself "what a dream fire, we got here just in time and we are gonna knock the hell outa this sucker in a hurry." As for letting it burn to keep clean up to a minimum, I don't know about that now. We responded to a fire that had been burning for probably over two hours before we got dispatched. The roof was in the basement so the decision was made with the homeowner to let it burn out. Later the homeowner went through the debris and found a lot of keepsakes that had survived. I figure now since we were there with two tenders and an engine, we should have put the fire out, but I have to talk that over with the chief.
    Last edited by conrad427; 04-22-2013 at 02:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    If this were my garage and you asked me that question instead of just putting the fire out....................well, I'll just say that I'd make sure you never have the opportunity to ask it again in my town.

    In a rural community, it's not uncommon for the homeowner to ask us to allow a building that is no longer structurally sound to burn down. In fact, in LA, they have that legal right.


    Maybe you should think about how "hard" this fire really ISN'T?
    I guess it all depends on how much extension there is into the home. I believe there is more than you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Well, if a person was worried about it I would have dispatch hit the tones until the batteries went dead in everyone's pagers. Call the neighboring departments and fight fire as best you can until they show up. I come from a very rural area with staffing problems too, but even without officers we would still put some water on the fire.
    And so would we, but if I was shorthanded it would be from a 2 1/2" from a distance.

    Mutual aid for us, with the exception of the neighboring city and my combo department, offers little interior manpower.
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