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  1. #151
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    If this isn't a simple structure fire, I don't know what is.

    We disagree on that. Enough said.


    You frequently make a point of bragging about where you've been teaching and what you've been teaching. Teach your volunteers how to handle a routine structure fire.

    We have concentrated on teaching skills, not leadership. Have we taught them about performing a size-up and requesting mutual aid? Yes. Have we discussed what size lines to pull on what types of fires? Yes. In fact that is, in part, why we now use a transistional attack philosphy which dictates that they will pull the 2 1/2" on any structural incident where there is fire visable through 2 or more openings (a residental garage door counts as 3 and a commercial door of 10' or more counts as 4). That makes the process easier for them in terms of tactics.

    Could they pull this off? maybe, but again, I think there is far more extention into the 2nd structure than most of you think. Now it becomes a multiple-building incident, and that is likely beyond our daytime resources.


    Passive recruiting gets you nowhere. Volunteers generally start as one of three things: Those wanting to fill a community need, those who never outgrew the childhood dream, and those who are badgered into it by friends or relatives. We've never recruited a soul with posters or mailers. Personal contact every time.

    Disagree. My previous VFD was very successful using the media, but personal contact can also be very effective. I have recruited a volunteer from my combo department who lives near the line. Another couple of members have brought folks in, but one is now headed to Afghaistan in May and the other looks like it is too much of a committement, which is fine.

    Biggest problem is that the demographics of the community is that it is primarily older, and much of the younger population is far more interested in hunting and fishing as compared to the commitment required or firefighting.

    I could hand my neighbor a fire hose and say, "Put that out!" and he'd at least be able to keep it at bay until real firefighters arrive.[/QUOTE]


    And as I have said, it's not the garage fire that's the issue. If they follow policy, the 2 1/2" will go into service first and knock down the garage, and likely they will sweep thee exterior of the house before hitting the garage.

    The issue is the house, which I feel will have significant fire by the time a line is stretched (assuming that we have more than a 2-3 member response) and able to operate interior.
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    Just how long does it take you to pull a line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As everything is situational, I would not write it off, though depending on how much fire has gotten into the attic the realistic truth is there may not be enough manpower available, without calling in resources beyond my VFD and the AMA department to work it until it has progresses through the structure. That is just a simple travel time issue which I cannot change.

    In my opinion the majority of that extension would be stopped by hitting that soffit area as you moved in on the garage fire. 2 guys inside with a hook and a hoseline will get the rest of it.

    I would expect that the initial 2 1/2" per policy would take care of much of the garage pretty quickly, assuming that it was deployed in at timely manner. However I believe that there is already some significant extension into the house, or at least will be by the time hoses get on the ground and into service.

    Significant? Perhaps, nothing hooks and a hoseline inside won't finish killing in short order.

    The next in department would either be my combo department, with a travel time of 10-15 minutes, or the department to the north. If it was in the northern part of the district, that department could provide very, very little in the way of interior-qualified manpower. In that case, my combo department would be called with an ETA of 15-20ish minutes.

    WHY? Why on God's Green Earth would you call another FD that won't go inside to fight fire when that is the problem your very own volly FD has. Geezus people would be better off buying more smoke detectors and installing sprinklers than counting on your merry bands of exterior firefighters.

    And yes, I would have some serious issues regarding being offensive with 4 green members and 1 experienced members. That would be a significant safety issue and would significantly affect how i approached this fire.

    How long do they remain green? FOREVER if you never let them TRY to actually fight a fire. This whole operation is Bread and Butter if they get to work instead of huddling, waste time assigning command vests, and wringing their hands because the Chiefs aren't there.
    More excuses and nonsense.
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  4. #154
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    More excuses for inaction. The truth is the faster you extinguish the garage fire the less potential it has for further complications with anything else in the garage area. The longer it burns the more likely negative effects will begin to take place. Using your 2 1/2 "Transitional" attack you could knock down the majority of this fire from 30 or 40 feet away.

    And where did i say that we would not attempt to extinguish the fire, except in the the case of the homeowner requesting that we not (which again, they have that right in LA)?

    I have stated clearly many times that the garage is not really the issue as we would, per policy, stretch the 2 1/2", which we have trauiined our members to operate solo, and knock down the fire in the garage.
    The issue though is not the garage, but the house, and there is a very good possibility that we simply would not have enough experienced personnel to operate interior if there is significant fire until the arrival of the on-duty crew from the neighboring city.

    That's not giving up. That is simply the reality of our daytime response under sopme specific circumstances.



    Knock that fire down on the way to the garage. You are the first fire officer who I have ever heard say that pulling ceiling with a pike pole is beyond the scope of his firefighter's ability. Hell man, I could take a care who never held a pike pole before and in about a minute show them how to pull ceiling. You do realize how silly this makes you sound right? 2 guys in the house, 1 pulling ceiling, one with a hoseline. Simple, bread and butter firefighting.

    And maybe it would be. But again, there may be alimited response, and they may be overwhelmed and that may not be accomplished.

    My point is that I see the possibility that we would lose the house under some circumstances. And honestly, it does not bother me that it could happen. We have the resources that we have, and I know that they will give it thier best shot, but sometimes houses burn down. And sometimes the fire department just can't keep that from happening.


    3. The 2 1/2" which would be pulled for this fire as the initial line per policy would knock down most of the fire in the garage. That's not the issue with this fire, It's the house and the other stuff that we don't see in the picture such as possible exposures to the right and the rear. I'm not going to look at this picture and assume a "simple" garage fire. You give me a bigger picture or maybe a conversation with the owner about any surprises and maybe I would.

    More excuses for inaction and writing off a completely savable house. Pathetic.

    And where are the excuses? I have no idea what is happening that we don't see that I may have to utilize my manpower on. I'm not writing anything off but simply being realistic about the limited resources in terms of numbers, experience and training that we may respond with, and the the travel time of both automatic and requested mutual aid.

    The fact is that I do acknowledge that under some circumstances, this situation may be a loser for my VFD. It's called being realistic about your operations.




    4. Last I knew I wasn't a Messiah.

    Oh you are a Messiah alright, unfortunately you are a false one attempting to lead the masses into darkness.

    And where have I said that I am leading anyone? The training officer and myself work together toplan and deliver training. We have ramped it up and made it more physical, but in doing that we have found issues that we are still addressing. This budget year we finally were given a budget due to an increase in overall revenue where we have finally been able to send members to in-state and out-of-sstate classes with realistic burn facilities.

    I never said I have all the answers, but there is still a culture from previous Chiefs which is fighting to some degree, the increasing physicality of training and increasing training requirements, especially in the older members. Changing that takes time, and it's still a process.


    You have completely embarassed yourself on this topic. EVERYONE now knows exactly how little fire you will surrender a home on. Nice work...

    And where did I say anything about surrendering?

    I did state that resources, especially manpower during the daytime hours, is a significant challenge, and that there will be times that my VFD, even with AMA, will be limited in what we can accomplish. Again, if this was a simple garage fire, without exposure involvement, it would likely not be a major issue. Throw in the unknown exposure involvement, plus what we can't see from this picture, and yes, this situation would very likely be beyond the control of the 2-3 members we may get on some daytime responses.

    That's not surrendering. That is simply understanding what your department may or may not be able to do.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's not surrendering. That is simply understanding what your department may or may not be able to do.[/COLOR]
    Which you have clearly explained as not much. Do the folks in your town know they really have no fire protection?

    Don't you feel a professional responsibility to tell them? Or do they already know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which you have clearly explained as not much. Do the folks in your town know they really have no fire protection?

    Don't you feel a professional responsibility to tell them? Or do they already know.
    They know that it can take 20 or 25 minutes for the private EMS agencies or the Sheriff's department to arrive in the more rural parts of the district. And yes they know that the fire department is volunteer with limited resources, and that it can take awhile for us to arrive to the more rural parts of the district.

    Folks in rural communities understand that there are drawbacks to living in areas with pretty low tax rates that are sparesly populated, which describes the majority of our district.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They know that it can take 20 or 25 minutes for the private EMS agencies or the Sheriff's department to arrive in the more rural parts of the district. And yes they know that the fire department is volunteer with limited resources, and that it can take awhile for us to arrive to the more rural parts of the district.

    Folks in rural communities understand that there are drawbacks to living in areas with pretty low tax rates that are sparesly populated, which describes the majority of our district.
    Good to know. I won't worry that they actually believe you're coming to their rescue when that is not the case. At least they realize that if they are trapped in a burning structure and you're coming, that they are pretty much toast (no pun intended).

    The drawbacks you list are one of the many reasons I'll never live in rural environment.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Good to know. I won't worry that they actually believe you're coming to their rescue when that is not the case. At least they realize that if they are trapped in a burning structure and you're coming, that they are pretty much toast (no pun intended).

    The drawbacks you list are one of the many reasons I'll never live in rural environment.
    Yes, thery understand that unless they live in the southern end of the district, they are a distance from help- fire, EMS and LE - and pretty much accept that as the price they pay for the low tax rate, having 50 acres of land or being able to shoot thier guns just for the hell of it or deer from thier back porch.

    The simple fact is that for the majority of our district, if they do not escape the fire on thier own, the response times alone will make any kind of fire department rescue virtually impossible. For just about all of north LA, except in the urban and surburban areas, that's the case.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have concentrated on teaching skills, not leadership.
    Anybody that knows the skills required for this SIMPLE operation doesn't need six weeks in Emmitsburg to carry them out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    More excuses for inaction. The truth is the faster you extinguish the garage fire the less potential it has for further complications with anything else in the garage area. The longer it burns the more likely negative effects will begin to take place. Using your 2 1/2 "Transitional" attack you could knock down the majority of this fire from 30 or 40 feet away.

    And where did i say that we would not attempt to extinguish the fire, except in the the case of the homeowner requesting that we not (which again, they have that right in LA)?

    You have said REPEATEDLY that going inside the house, pulling ceiling and extiguishing any extension would probably be beyond the ability of your on scene firefighters. If you are going in anything you do from the exterior only delays the inevitable. Frankly, again if simple tactics like that are beyond your volly FD, close the doors sell off the equipment and hire the city to do your fire protection because on occasion then a building may get saved.


    I have stated clearly many times that the garage is not really the issue as we would, per policy, stretch the 2 1/2", which we have trauiined our members to operate solo, and knock down the fire in the garage.
    The issue though is not the garage, but the house, and there is a very good possibility that we simply would not have enough experienced personnel to operate interior if there is significant fire until the arrival of the on-duty crew from the neighboring city.

    Okay, if ONE FF is going to handle the 2 1/2 to knock down the garage fire, then what are the others going to do? Stand around in command vests? Why can't the remaining 2 or 3 go check for extension? How will they ever get experience if you never let them do anything.

    That's not giving up. That is simply the reality of our daytime response under sopme specific circumstances.


    In order to give up you have to at least initially attempted something. So true you aren't giving up, but not trying at all is even more pathetic.

    Knock that fire down on the way to the garage. You are the first fire officer who I have ever heard say that pulling ceiling with a pike pole is beyond the scope of his firefighter's ability. Hell man, I could take a care who never held a pike pole before and in about a minute show them how to pull ceiling. You do realize how silly this makes you sound right? 2 guys in the house, 1 pulling ceiling, one with a hoseline. Simple, bread and butter firefighting.

    And maybe it would be. But again, there may be a limited response, and they may be overwhelmed and that may not be accomplished.

    My point is that I see the possibility that we would lose the house under some circumstances. And honestly, it does not bother me that it could happen. We have the resources that we have, and I know that they will give it thier best shot, but sometimes houses burn down. And sometimes the fire department just can't keep that from happening.


    The fact that you can see losing the house is one thing, but your F***ing cavalier "It does not bother me that it could happen" attitude is going to bite you in the *** one day. You are going to say something stupid like that to a homeowner that just lost everything and your next few meals will be chewed through a mouth full of bloody Chiclets.

    3. The 2 1/2" which would be pulled for this fire as the initial line per policy would knock down most of the fire in the garage. That's not the issue with this fire, It's the house and the other stuff that we don't see in the picture such as possible exposures to the right and the rear. I'm not going to look at this picture and assume a "simple" garage fire. You give me a bigger picture or maybe a conversation with the owner about any surprises and maybe I would.

    More excuses for inaction and writing off a completely savable house. Pathetic.


    And where are the excuses? I have no idea what is happening that we don't see that I may have to utilize my manpower on. I'm not writing anything off but simply being realistic about the limited resources in terms of numbers, experience and training that we may respond with, and the the travel time of both automatic and requested mutual aid.

    Where are the excuses? You are saying your guys don't have the training to pull off an exterior attack on a detached garage, and that the house will likely burn down because going interior to pull ceiling and extinguish any extension into the house is beyond their skill set. further you have said basically your FD is a headless chicken without chief officers on location that you admit work out of town during the day and would be unavailable. Yeah, no excuses there in the least.

    The fact is that I do acknowledge that under some circumstances, this situation may be a loser for my VFD. It's called being realistic about your operations.


    Yeah, if realism means surrendering people's lives and property with the false pretense of having a fire department.


    4. Last I knew I wasn't a Messiah.

    Oh you are a Messiah alright, unfortunately you are a false one attempting to lead the masses into darkness.

    And where have I said that I am leading anyone? The training officer and myself work together toplan and deliver training. We have ramped it up and made it more physical, but in doing that we have found issues that we are still addressing. This budget year we finally were given a budget due to an increase in overall revenue where we have finally been able to send members to in-state and out-of-sstate classes with realistic burn facilities.

    You claim to be a leader and an influential force on this volly FD. Unless it suits your purpose to deny it, like now.

    If your combo FD has a burn facility, and you mutual aid with this volly FD, why doesn't your combo FD offer the use of their facility a couple times a year for live fire training? Most inhouse training costs absolutely NOTHING. Heck I have built training props from scrap lumber I had and other members of the FD donated. Get inventive. Yes, it will mean diverting from making excuses to being productive, but it does pay off.

    I never said I have all the answers, but there is still a culture from previous Chiefs which is fighting to some degree, the increasing physicality of training and increasing training requirements, especially in the older members. Changing that takes time, and it's still a process.


    Not if you are serious. You make a new policy and either you get on board or it is time to go. Have you ever thought maybe the young people of the community don't want to belong to some good old boys club and that is why they show no interest in the FD?

    You have completely embarassed yourself on this topic. EVERYONE now knows exactly how little fire you will surrender a home on. Nice work...

    And where did I say anything about surrendering?

    Um, Golly. Maybe when you said the house pictured above will probably be lost too...
    I did state that resources, especially manpower during the daytime hours, is a significant challenge, and that there will be times that my VFD, even with AMA, will be limited in what we can accomplish. Again, if this was a simple garage fire, without exposure involvement, it would likely not be a major issue. Throw in the unknown exposure involvement, plus what we can't see from this picture, and yes, this situation would very likely be beyond the control of the 2-3 members we may get on some daytime responses.

    Again, if all you can muster during a daytime fire is 2 or 3 and they can't do jack squat without the Chiefs being there why even pretend to have a fire department in the first place?

    That's not surrendering. That is simply understanding what your department may or may not be able to do.


    No, you are right. It isn't surrendering, it is much worse. Basically your volly FD is outright LYING to the community about having a fire department, during the day anyways. How can you defend saying you have a FD when you can't muster enough guys to handle even this fire? How can you defend saying you have an FD when they would be paralyzed into inaction without having a chief officer, that is unavailable during the day, there to tell them what to do?
    It gets more pathetic every time you post...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Anybody that knows the skills required for this SIMPLE operation doesn't need six weeks in Emmitsburg to carry them out.
    Again, I agree that knocking down a well involved garage fire with a 2-3 firefighter crew isn't very complex.

    Senior firefighter or officer doing a 360, then assisting with handline if needed. One firefighter pulling and operating the 2 1/2" on the with a smooth bore tip. Pump Operator connecting the line, supplying water to the line and then setting up a supply line for the second due engine or tanker.

    AMA engine arrives with 5 and they assist with interior (if structurally sound) operations.

    Pretty simple.

    Throw a fire in an exposure in, especially with very limited manpower with VERY limited experience, and no, it's not so simple.

    We disagree. Likely always will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, I agree that knocking down a well involved garage fire with a 2-3 firefighter crew isn't very complex.

    Senior firefighter or officer doing a 360, then assisting with handline if needed. One firefighter pulling and operating the 2 1/2" on the with a smooth bore tip. Pump Operator connecting the line, supplying water to the line and then setting up a supply line for the second due engine or tanker.

    AMA engine arrives with 5 and they assist with interior (if structurally sound) operations.

    Pretty simple.

    Throw a fire in an exposure in, especially with very limited manpower with VERY limited experience, and no, it's not so simple.

    We disagree. Likely always will.


    I see the problem now. We're all discussing the fire that we can see in this photo, which is all you can really do with such a limited view and you're discussing the much more complicated fire that you've created in your head. Why am I not surprised by this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess it all depends on how much extension there is into the home. I believe there is more than you think.
    I think you believe there is far more extension than there actually was when the photo was taken.

    Plus, there's a big difference between the owner asking the FD to let a structure burn and the FD asking the owner if it's OK for them to not do their job.

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    A young firefighter does not need twenty years of experience to be a leader. It looks like to me you guys need to concentrate on getting the younger guys trained up on leadership. Call it a Lt. or senior FF or something and drill on arriving on the scene and delegating tasks to the guys that step up and can do the job. I understand that a lot of vol. FF training is on the job and that is how it works up here but our chief gives us responsibility right away to build the team in a hurry so when he is not there the fire dept. can still function. That is how a small dept. functions with out the entire complement of officers being there. I am just barely out of rookie status my self but the chief threw me into it right away for the very reason to get experience and build the team. You have to cut the strings and stop keeping people down if you ever want them to step up. Baptism by fire should not take twenty years and thousands of hours of training.
    Last edited by conrad427; 04-22-2013 at 03:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Scard? No.

    Understanding thier potential? Yes. Understanding exactly where my crew is in thier abilities? Yes.
    Understanding that the potential for disaster reduces exponentially the second an extinguishing agent is applied to the fire? No.

    Understanding that your crew is probably pretty good at a surround and drown? No.

    There seems to be a huge disconnect between your bloated ego and the rest of the people in your area. It seems to me that because you are a migrant transplant fire buff whose taken a few classes, that you're above the rank and file, and you don't care who knows it. It also seems to me that you have no confidence in your ability to make a decision with any haste involved.

    I really hope you don't happen to have anyone from these boards accidentally stumble into a class that you're teaching. I know I would heckle you until I got kicked out, or you left in tears. Either way it would be worth the wasted money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I see the problem now. We're all discussing the fire that we can see in this photo, which is all you can really do with such a limited view and you're discussing the much more complicated fire that you've created in your head. Why am I not surprised by this?
    As a retired co-worker of mine once said, "You could complicate a two-car funeral procession."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I see the problem now. We're all discussing the fire that we can see in this photo, which is all you can really do with such a limited view and you're discussing the much more complicated fire that you've created in your head. Why am I not surprised by this?
    Created in my head?

    Yes, I assume the worst when evaluating the scene. Based on what I see that this fire has already extended into the attic space. Since we are talking about our departments, I know that our members will arrive primarily POV and those driving apparatus will not be geared up as that uis our policy. To gear up and mask up will take at least 2 minutes, but more than likely 3 minutes. I am also assuming that since there are no hoselines on the ground, it will take 2 minutes plus or minus to get handlines into service and longer to get handlines into the structure.

    So I am looking at this fire 5 minutes into the future and there is no doubt by that time we will have significant fire in the attic space of the house, significant exterior fire on the C and D sides, and likely the vehicle in front of the garage will also be involved to some degree.

    So you are right. I am not looking at the fire in the picture. I am looking at the fire in the picture 4-5 minutes out and yes, it will be a significant fire for our typical daytime response.

    If the scenrio was that this was the situation when we were geared up, packed up and ready to flow water, that would be very, very different.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    As a retired co-worker of mine once said, "You could complicate a two-car funeral procession."
    As I said, I know what the time frame will be for my department to get geared up and packed up, and how long it will take for handlines to get into service.

    We will have a much more significant event at that time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Created in my head?

    Yes, I assume the worst when evaluating the scene. Based on what I see that this fire has already extended into the attic space. Since we are talking about our departments, I know that our members will arrive primarily POV and those driving apparatus will not be geared up as that uis our policy. To gear up and mask up will take at least 2 minutes, but more than likely 3 minutes. I am also assuming that since there are no hoselines on the ground, it will take 2 minutes plus or minus to get handlines into service and longer to get handlines into the structure.

    So I am looking at this fire 5 minutes into the future and there is no doubt by that time we will have significant fire in the attic space of the house and likely the vehicle in front of the garage will also be involved to some degree.

    So you are right. I am not looking at the fire in the picture. I am looking at the fire in the picture 4-5 minutes from now. And yes, that will be, more tha likely far more of an issue for our typical daytime response.
    It takes two minutes to get a line in service! I would fire a firefighter incapable of pulling a 200' preconnect and not calling for water in less than a minute. Especially given the circumstances in this photo is open level ground with few obstructions. That is not an unreasonable expectation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I said, I know what the time frame will be for my department to get geared up and packed up, and how long it will take for handlines to get into service.

    We will have a much more significant event at that time.
    As FyredUp pointed out. Your town doesn't have a FD during the day. Especially if they have to wait for a chief officer. One of the other main differences between jokes like you and real firefighters. I had no problem starting fire attack prior to the chief getting onscene. A good chief trusts his subordinates. Sounds like that isn't the case here. Given your constant excuse making it's no wonder he (they) don't trust you to make a decision that is anything more significant than deciding what to do at a stoplight.

    So please leave this forum, as it is titled "Firefighters Forum." You've made it clear that isn't you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Understanding that the potential for disaster reduces exponentially the second an extinguishing agent is applied to the fire? No.

    Understanding that your crew is probably pretty good at a surround and drown? No.

    There seems to be a huge disconnect between your bloated ego and the rest of the people in your area. It seems to me that because you are a migrant transplant fire buff whose taken a few classes, that you're above the rank and file, and you don't care who knows it. It also seems to me that you have no confidence in your ability to make a decision with any haste involved.

    I really hope you don't happen to have anyone from these boards accidentally stumble into a class that you're teaching. I know I would heckle you until I got kicked out, or you left in tears. Either way it would be worth the wasted money.
    Hey, it's your money.

    Bloated ego, huh? Interesting theory.

    I have no issues with surround and drown. For some departments it's the best and safest way to fight fire. if that is all that a department has the training, experience and resources to perform, they are still responding and still providing a service to the community.

    The fact is that my VFD is not a surround and drown department, but yes, we have limitations that are manpower, training and experience based. As as somebody who must make decsisions, I will give the situation the benefit of the doubt and have no problems acknowledging when we are over our heads, and the fire has won. And tha will occur long before my folks are put at risk.

    Where that point will be obviously depends, in great part, on the amount of manpower that responds. We, like most VFDs, and especially rural VFDs have significant issues with daytime, weekday responses. That is when we are most likely to lose a structure, to what at other times, would likely be a controllable fire.

    Not to acknowledge that weakness would be ignorant and foolish.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  21. #171
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    Like I said earlier, Hit the tones until the batteries go dead in everyone's pagers if you need help. I wouldn't want to lose a house in my town because I was at work and didn't feel like going.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not to acknowledge that weakness would be ignorant and foolish.
    Which really means you at least acknowledge your department is a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Train to fight the fires you fight.
    Which we can conclude means that since you never plan to fight fires, there really is no need for you to train.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It takes two minutes to get a line in service! I would fire a firefighter incapable of pulling a 200' preconnect and not calling for water in less than a minute. Especially given the circumstances in this photo is open level ground with few obstructions. That is not an unreasonable expectation.

    The first line off for this fire would be the 2 1/2" Transitional line. That is loaded on the rear hosebed, which due to the 1500g tank, is quite tall, and does represent a significant chalelnege for some of our members. In addition it is a deadload that must be connected to one of the side mounted discharges, so 2 minutes is apretty reasonable time to get water out of the line.

    The new engine will have a 2nd 2 1/2" preconnect to the rear dedicated to this line, and a lower hosebed.

    *** far as an 1 3/4", about a minute and a half is the average time for most of our members to get the line deployed and in service.



    As FyredUp pointed out. Your town doesn't have a FD during the day.

    And Fryed was wrong. Most of the time the response is quite adequate for 98% of our runs - MVAs, small brush fires, trash fires and the like. Structure fires rerpresent one or two runs a year, and most of the time manpower is not a significant issue, especially now that we are getting a 5-firefighter crew AMA.

    Especially if they have to wait for a chief officer.

    NNobody said we had to wait for a Chief officer. In the worst-case scenerio that I described for this fire, we could have NO officers of any rank responding. That happens very, very infrequently, but it does happen, and in those cases the members on the firground have very little experience and may have issues making operational decisions. That is a weakness that has been identified and is being addressed through training, but at this time, it is still an issue. That's why we have developed automatic policies regarding mutual aid, vehicle response assignments and fireground policies such as the transistional line policy. In the case of no officer on scene, the policy is that the senior officer from the city department responding AMA will assume command.

    One of the other main differences between jokes like you and real firefighters. I had no problem starting fire attack prior to the chief getting onscene.

    And we do all the time. problem occurs when there are no officers of any rank responding, which happens from time to time.


    See above.
    A good chief trusts his subordinates. Sounds like that isn't the case here.

    Not the case at all. The captain and myself are quite trusted. The fact is that we understand that our firefighters have very little fireground experience and no command experience, and we have identifed that as an operational issue. While some of that can be addressed through training, for the most part it needsto be addressed through experience, which is awfully tough when you run very few working incidents.

    Given your constant excuse making it's no wonder he (they) don't trust you to make a decision that is anything more significant than deciding what to do at a stoplight.

    Na.

    So please leave this forum, as it is titled "Firefighters Forum." You've made it clear that isn't you.
    See above.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    Like I said earlier, Hit the tones until the batteries go dead in everyone's pagers if you need help. I wouldn't want to lose a house in my town because I was at work and didn't feel like going.
    We cover afairly long, narrow district. The majority of the population and just about all the volunteer firefighters live in the bottom 1/3 of the district. We have almost no response out of the norther

    And that will make people magically appear?

    We have a total of 12-13 active members, most of whom are out of town during the day unless they work rotating shifts, like the Chief, or work a shift schedule like the 3 members employed as full-time firefighters. That is the makeup of the department.

    As far as mutual aid, we realistically have 2 departments that can provide interior manpower. One is the combo city department next door which alreadys runs AMA on all of our structural calls. They give us thier 5-man on-duty crew and any other responding volunteers once the city has been covered. The other is my combo department, that while fairly close to the westrn lower 1/3 of the district has a very extended response time to any part of the district. The other fire departments in the parish can only provide VERY limited numbers of interiorpersonal, and even fewer during the day, and unfortuantly, that includes all of the VFDs that would be close to the northern part of the district

    Mutual aid is limited no matter how many times we have dispatch hit the tone button.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-22-2013 at 05:22 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Created in my head?

    Yes, I assume the worst when evaluating the scene. Based on what I see that this fire has already extended into the attic space. Since we are talking about our departments, I know that our members will arrive primarily POV and those driving apparatus will not be geared up as that uis our policy. To gear up and mask up will take at least 2 minutes, but more than likely 3 minutes. I am also assuming that since there are no hoselines on the ground, it will take 2 minutes plus or minus to get handlines into service and longer to get handlines into the structure.

    So I am looking at this fire 5 minutes into the future and there is no doubt by that time we will have significant fire in the attic space of the house, significant exterior fire on the C and D sides, and likely the vehicle in front of the garage will also be involved to some degree.

    So you are right. I am not looking at the fire in the picture. I am looking at the fire in the picture 4-5 minutes out and yes, it will be a significant fire for our typical daytime response.

    If the scenrio was that this was the situation when we were geared up, packed up and ready to flow water, that would be very, very different.
    I could post all kinds of responses to this latest example of excuses and pathetic nonsense. But why? You seem content to ALWAYS seek the lowest common denominator and rise to the bottom of the barrel.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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