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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Which really means you at least acknowledge your department is a joke.

    No I acknowledge that we have weaknesses and that does include at times, responding manpower.


    Which we can conclude means that since you never plan to fight fires, there really is no need for you to train.
    That's making the assumption i never fight fires, which is .... Incorrect, sir.

    You just keep with that storyline ... We'll see how it works out for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I said, I know what the time frame will be for my department to get geared up and packed up, and how long it will take for handlines to get into service.

    We will have a much more significant event at that time.
    How much more significant than any number of other houses you wrote off and burned down in your rural renewal project? Surround and burn down. Where's the rehab truck?

    Pathetic...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hey, it's your money.

    It would be worth every penny to watch you melt down.

    Bloated ego, huh? Interesting theory.

    Fact...and you have proven it repeatedly with your postings.

    I have no issues with surround and drown. For some departments it's the best and safest way to fight fire. if that is all that a department has the training, experience and resources to perform, they are still responding and still providing a service to the community.

    Sure, they are running community bonfires at the property owner's expense. The least you could do is supply the makings for smores.

    The fact is that my VFD is not a surround and drown department, but yes, we have limitations that are manpower, training and experience based. As as somebody who must make decsisions, I will give the situation the benefit of the doubt and have no problems acknowledging when we are over our heads, and the fire has won. And tha will occur long before my folks are put at risk.

    Seriously, how can you say that and keep a straight face? You have done nothing on this topic but defend your volly FDs inability to muster enough staff during the day to fight this fire, you have repeatedly said that without the chiefs or you responding they don't have anyone to lead them so they are essentially paralyzed, and you seem unwilling to risk anything to do anything worthwhile.

    Just admit that by your own words you have said you don't really even have a volly FD during the day do to lack of staffing and no chiefs to hold their hand.


    Where that point will be obviously depends, in great part, on the amount of manpower that responds. We, like most VFDs, and especially rural VFDs have significant issues with daytime, weekday responses. That is when we are most likely to lose a structure, to what at other times, would likely be a controllable fire.

    I can't help but wonder how long the paid city department will expend its entire on-duty crews to your volly FDs area before a citizen or a council member steps up and says "Um, WTF are we doing spending our money fighting all the fires in podunk volly land?" Just face the facts, most fires will win and any victims will die if they count on the volly FD to stop the fire or save the lives.

    Not to acknowledge that weakness would be ignorant and foolish.
    Not to let your citizens know you haven't got a fire department for daytime response is ignorant and foolish.
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How much more significant than any number of other houses you wrote off and burned down in your rural renewal project? Surround and burn down. Where's the rehab truck?

    Pathetic...
    Funny thing is that in the 3 years I have been with them we have responded to 4 house fires, one duplex fire in the attic space and one large workshed fire, which was fully involved on arrival.

    The duplex and the 4 houses were repaired and are still occupied today

    Hate to interject facts though .......
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Created in my head?
    Yes, created in your head.

    Instead of taking the picture at face value, which you pretty much have to do given the very limited view, you've added a second car and numerous chemicals in the garage along with exposure issues into the mix.

    Yes, I assume the worst when evaluating the scene. Based on what I see that this fire has already extended into the attic space. Since we are talking about our departments, I know that our members will arrive primarily POV and those driving apparatus will not be geared up as that uis our policy. To gear up and mask up will take at least 2 minutes, but more than likely 3 minutes. I am also assuming that since there are no hoselines on the ground, it will take 2 minutes plus or minus to get handlines into service and longer to get handlines into the structure.

    So I am looking at this fire 5 minutes into the future and there is no doubt by that time we will have significant fire in the attic space of the house, significant exterior fire on the C and D sides, and likely the vehicle in front of the garage will also be involved to some degree.

    So you are right. I am not looking at the fire in the picture. I am looking at the fire in the picture 4-5 minutes out and yes, it will be a significant fire for our typical daytime response.
    There's not really anything wrong with thinking like that in a real world situation. However, in a real world situation, you'd also have the benefit of a lot more information about what is going on to determine the appropriate strategy.

    If the scenrio was that this was the situation when we were geared up, packed up and ready to flow water, that would be very, very different.
    I'm pretty sure that was essentially the intent. The first unit arrives to find those fire conditions, now what would you do? What's the strategy and tactics going to be?

    Your probably the only one to not get that.

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    Originally Posted by scfire86
    It takes two minutes to get a line in service! I would fire a firefighter incapable of pulling a 200' preconnect and not calling for water in less than a minute. Especially given the circumstances in this photo is open level ground with few obstructions. That is not an unreasonable expectation.

    The first line off for this fire would be the 2 1/2" Transitional line. That is loaded on the rear hosebed, which due to the 1500g tank, is quite tall, and does represent a significant chalelnege for some of our members. In addition it is a deadload that must be connected to one of the side mounted discharges, so 2 minutes is apretty reasonable time to get water out of the line.

    The new engine will have a 2nd 2 1/2" preconnect to the rear dedicated to this line, and a lower hosebed.

    *** far as an 1 3/4", about a minute and a half is the average time for most of our members to get the line deployed and in service.


    As FyredUp pointed out. Your town doesn't have a FD during the day.

    And Fryed was wrong. Most of the time the response is quite adequate for 98% of our runs - MVAs, small brush fires, trash fires and the like. Structure fires rerpresent one or two runs a year, and most of the time manpower is not a significant issue, especially now that we are getting a 5-firefighter crew AMA.

    Yet you have stated OVER and OVER that manpower would be an issue. You make up so much BS that you can't even keep track of it yourself.
    Especially if they have to wait for a chief officer.

    NNobody said we had to wait for a Chief officer. In the worst-case scenerio that I described for this fire, we could have NO officers of any rank responding. That happens very, very infrequently, but it does happen, and in those cases the members on the firground have very little experience and may have issues making operational decisions. That is a weakness that has been identified and is being addressed through training, but at this time, it is still an issue. That's why we have developed automatic policies regarding mutual aid, vehicle response assignments and fireground policies such as the transistional line policy. In the case of no officer on scene, the policy is that the senior officer from the city department responding AMA will assume command.

    How hard is it to teach some basic size up and initial command skills? Again, this just seems like more excuse making.

    One of the other main differences between jokes like you and real firefighters. I had no problem starting fire attack prior to the chief getting onscene.

    And we do all the time. problem occurs when there are no officers of any rank responding, which happens from time to time.

    So which is it, they do it or they don't have the skill to do it? Because now you have said both.

    See above.


    A good chief trusts his subordinates. Sounds like that isn't the case here.

    Not the case at all. The captain and myself are quite trusted. The fact is that we understand that our firefighters have very little fireground experience and no command experience, and we have identifed that as an operational issue. While some of that can be addressed through training, for the most part it needsto be addressed through experience, which is awfully tough when you run very few working incidents.

    So your latest excuse is that since you don't have any fires they simply won't ever be experienced enough to be any good.

    Given your constant excuse making it's no wonder he (they) don't trust you to make a decision that is anything more significant than deciding what to do at a stoplight.

    Na.

    Actually, how tough can it be to make the decision to go defensive on every fire?
    So please leave this forum, as it is titled "Firefighters Forum." You've made it clear that isn't you.

    See above.

    I guess they do allow visitors here so you don't technically have to be a firefighter to post here.
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  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that in the 3 years I have been with them we have responded to 4 house fires, one duplex fire in the attic space and one large workshed fire, which was fully involved on arrival.

    The duplex and the 4 houses were repaired and are still occupied today

    Hate to interject facts though .......
    Which department? Because they way you talk about your volly FD I simply don't believe you.
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    It would be worth every penny to watch you melt down.

    Doubt I would.

    Bloated ego, huh? Interesting theory.

    Yup.

    I have no issues with surround and drown. For some departments it's the best and safest way to fight fire. if that is all that a department has the training, experience and resources to perform, they are still responding and still providing a service to the community.

    And the community is fully aware in most cases of the fire protection that they have. And they know the tax rates in the community with better fire and police protection. In most cases they are willing to roll the dice because they like rural living and they like low tax rates.

    The fact is a department can only do what they can do with the resources at hand. Until you can figure out a way to change that, we will laways have very differing levels of fire protection (as well as LE and EMS) protection around the country.




    Seriously, how can you say that and keep a straight face? You have done nothing on this topic but defend your volly FDs inability to muster enough staff during the day to fight this fire, you have repeatedly said that without the chiefs or you responding they don't have anyone to lead them so they are essentially paralyzed, and you seem unwilling to risk anything to do anything worthwhile.

    I stated that in the worst-case scenerio, we would have an issue. On the flip side would be the best case when all 3 of our volunteers who work as career members elsewhere are off, the Chief is on a night rotation or days off and I'm available from my FT giog just down the road, plus 2-3 other responding volunteers would be available. In that case, this fire would be a piece of cake especially if the extenstion was limited, especially with the responding AMA. The truth is that our response is usually someplace and in the middle, and even then, with the AMA, this fire would be managable. I guess you never have manpower issues at your VFD?

    Did you happen to notice my previous post about how badly we are NOT burning down the town?

    Also stated that we would have issues without an officer of any kind, as many VFDs would, especially those relying on younger, less experienced members for the biulk of thier response. Again, the number of runs that we have NO officers on are very few and very far between, but it happens.


    Just admit that by your own words you have said you don't really even have a volly FD during the day do to lack of staffing and no chiefs to hold their hand.

    We have a strong captain and myself. Scenes go just fine without the Chief or Deputy Chief, but having as many officers as possible certainly helps. We are fully aware that we do not have much experience to lead at fires among the firefighters, but as i have clearly stated MULTIPLE times, not having an officer on the response is a very infrequent occurance.


    I can't help but wonder how long the paid city department will expend its entire on-duty crews to your volly FDs area before a citizen or a council member steps up and says "Um, WTF are we doing spending our money fighting all the fires in podunk volly land?" Just face the facts, most fires will win and any victims will die if they count on the volly FD to stop the fire or save the lives.

    Right now the Chief has no issues. in fact, he is willing to put the truck on the first alarm for commercial buildings as well.

    "All those fires" constitutes 3-4 responses per year, and that includes all alarm trips and smoke investigations as well. As I said, we do very few runs.

    And yes, that could occur. And if it did, we would have problems again.


    Not to let your citizens know you haven't got a fire department for daytime response is ignorant and foolish.

    Again, they are very well aware of what we provide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Which department? Because they way you talk about your volly FD I simply don't believe you.
    Doesn't really matter very much to me if you beleive me or not.

    And it is my volly department.

    Admittadly, we have been lucky in that the fires have occurred at the right places and at the right times.

    Had they occurred in the northern part of the district where we have no volunteerrs and extended response times, it would be a different story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Doesn't really matter very much to me if you beleive me or not.

    And it is my volly department.

    Admittadly, we have been lucky in that the fires have occurred at the right places and at the right times.

    Had they occurred in the northern part of the district where we have no volunteerrs and extended response times, it would be a different story.
    You are so ridiculous it is just plain sad. You spend days saying your volly FD would probably lose this house due to an inadequate response and lack of experience and when you get told how pathetic that is you change your tune. First no chiefs repsond during the day to sometimes they do, first not enough vollies and now depending on the day maybe more than enough. Then this nonsense about great stops at these fires you mentioned when a single car garage in your opinion leads to the probable loss of the detached house. Come on LA find a story and stick to it okay? Because pretty soon you will find yourself not even believing what you post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no issues with surround and drown.
    HERE INLIES THE PROBLEM. If you are a fireFIGHTER, surround and drown should offend you deeply...like clear to your bone marrow. It should pizz you off and send you back to the hall in a foul mood. Surround and drown is a declaration of failure. It offends everyone in my unit if we have to go defensive; because it means we didn't win that particular fight. Putting the grass fire out in the front yard while the house burns to the ground is NOT victory. To me, there is nothing worse than rolling hoses after losing a structure, except fatalities.

    Do you not have ANY sense of duty to protect your 'hood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You are so ridiculous it is just plain sad. You spend days saying your volly FD would probably lose this house due to an inadequate response and lack of experience and when you get told how pathetic that is you change your tune. First no chiefs repsond during the day to sometimes they do, first not enough vollies and now depending on the day maybe more than enough. Then this nonsense about great stops at these fires you mentioned when a single car garage in your opinion leads to the probable loss of the detached house. Come on LA find a story and stick to it okay? Because pretty soon you will find yourself not even believing what you post.

    Here is the post where I stated that we may lose the house:

    We actually agree.

    A big fire is relative.

    For my VFD, that sees, on a bust year, 2-3 structure fires, this would be a significant incident , and would pose a VERY significant challenge as their experience level is quite limited. In fact, if the "right folks" were not on the run there is a high likelihood that this garage fire would easily result in the loss of the house.


    And I stick with that.

    Since I have been on, all (the whooping 1.78 per year) have all occurred, with the exception of one, at the right time, in the right place, which is the core area, and with the "right people" available.

    We have been primarily lucky in that we had a rapid response to small fires.

    Change the location by a few miles or change the days, and we likely would have had much more significant losses.

    One of our Chiefs respond to most daytime fires. One of our Captains respond to most daytime fires. there are situations where no officers respond to daytime fires. They are infrequent but they occur.

    Response overall is an issue for all calls, but as i stated, we have been very lucky in that most of the fires over the past 3 years have been small.

    Is it that tough to understand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The first line off for this fire would be the 2 1/2" Transitional line. That is loaded on the rear hosebed, which due to the 1500g tank, is quite tall, and does represent a significant chalelnege for some of our members. In addition it is a deadload that must be connected to one of the side mounted discharges, so 2 minutes is apretty reasonable time to get water out of the line.
    Real firefighters would be pulling the preconnect. We used 2 1/2" for protection lines. We attacked fires like that with 1 3/4". It worked 90% of the time. 1500 gal. will put out a lot of fire. You would know that if you were a real firefighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The new engine will have a 2nd 2 1/2" preconnect to the rear dedicated to this line, and a lower hosebed.
    And? So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    *** far as an 1 3/4", about a minute and a half is the average time for most of our members to get the line deployed and in service.
    Seems you might want to think about more training. I didn't say put in service, I said "calling for water." That should take less than a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And Fryed was wrong. Most of the time the response is quite adequate for 98% of our runs - MVAs, small brush fires, trash fires and the like. Structure fires rerpresent one or two runs a year, and most of the time manpower is not a significant issue, especially now that we are getting a 5-firefighter crew AMA.
    Which contradicts earlier statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nobody said we had to wait for a Chief officer. In the worst-case scenerio that I described for this fire, we could have NO officers of any rank responding. That happens very, very infrequently, but it does happen, and in those cases the members on the firground have very little experience and may have issues making operational decisions. That is a weakness that has been identified and is being addressed through training, but at this time, it is still an issue. That's why we have developed automatic policies regarding mutual aid, vehicle response assignments and fireground policies such as the transistional line policy. In the case of no officer on scene, the policy is that the senior officer from the city department responding AMA will assume command.
    Which also contradicts earlier statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And we do all the time. problem occurs when there are no officers of any rank responding, which happens from time to time.
    Which contradicts earlier statements

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    See above.

    Na.

    See above.
    Your BS just keeps getting deeper. Fun to read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I guess they do allow visitors here so you don't technically have to be a firefighter to post here.
    Good point.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Come on LA find a story and stick to it okay? Because pretty soon you will find yourself not even believing what you post.
    Confucious say; "good liar must have good memory."

    That pretty much describes what LAFE isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Here is the post where I stated that we may lose the house:

    We actually agree.

    A big fire is relative.

    For my VFD, that sees, on a bust year, 2-3 structure fires, this would be a significant incident , and would pose a VERY significant challenge as their experience level is quite limited. In fact, if the "right folks" were not on the run there is a high likelihood that this garage fire would easily result in the loss of the house.


    And I stick with that.

    Since I have been on, all (the whooping 1.78 per year) have all occurred, with the exception of one, at the right time, in the right place, which is the core area, and with the "right people" available.

    We have been primarily lucky in that we had a rapid response to small fires.

    Change the location by a few miles or change the days, and we likely would have had much more significant losses.

    One of our Chiefs respond to most daytime fires. One of our Captains respond to most daytime fires. there are situations where no officers respond to daytime fires. They are infrequent but they occur.

    Response overall is an issue for all calls, but as i stated, we have been very lucky in that most of the fires over the past 3 years have been small.

    Is it that tough to understand?
    No, the fact that you sing, dance, use smoke and mirrors, and change your story to suit your need at that time is part of the reason all of this is so pathetic.
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    If it is all about how lucky you have been with the right people showing up and the right time of day and the right area and whatnot, maybe it is time to train up the daytime crew and stop relying on luck so the taxpayer in the picture does not loose their house for the hell of it.

    And no, I have not figured out how to use the quote function yet, darn public education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No, the fact that you sing, dance, use smoke and mirrors, and change your story to suit your need at that time is part of the reason all of this is so pathetic.
    Never changed my story. Enough said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    If it is all about how lucky you have been with the right people showing up and the right time of day and the right area and whatnot, maybe it is time to train up the daytime crew and stop relying on luck so the taxpayer in the picture does not loose their house for the hell of it.

    And no, I have not figured out how to use the quote function yet, darn public education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conrad427 View Post
    If it is all about how lucky you have been with the right people showing up and the right time of day and the right area and whatnot, maybe it is time to train up the daytime crew and stop relying on luck so the taxpayer in the picture does not loose their house for the hell of it.

    And no, I have not figured out how to use the quote function yet, darn public education.
    Not much that we can do with the staffing that at times we are dealt.

    Training is improving, but bottom line there is simply no substitution for real experience on real fires, which we simply do not get.

    Taxpayers are pretty happy right now with the fire protection that they are receiving vs. the cost.
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    [QUOTE=scfire86;1364835]Real firefighters would be pulling the preconnect. We used 2 1/2" for protection lines. We attacked fires like that with 1 3/4". It worked 90% of the time. 1500 gal. will put out a lot of fire. You would know that if you were a real firefighter.

    And that's great, however we want to flow more water than an 1 3/4" with the initial line. We would also rather knock down the bulk of the fire from the safety of the exterior vs. the downright hostility of the interior.

    Guess we're just crazy like that.




    Seems you might want to think about more training. I didn't say put in service, I said "calling for water." That should take less than a minute.

    Given the frequency that we put hose on the ground, as well as the other stuff that we need to train on, I'm not all that unhappy with 90 seconds. A little faster would be nice but that would mean take something off the training schedule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Not much that we can do with the staffing that at times we are dealt.

    Training is improving, but bottom line there is simply no substitution for real experience on real fires, which we simply do not get.

    Taxpayers are pretty happy right now with the fire protection that they are receiving vs. the cost.
    No, taxpayers are just lucky that their VFD hasn't bitten them in the taint yet. Some sunny afternoon, some old lady babysitting three grandkids is going to slip into a diabetic coma with food on the stove, and there will be four bodies under a heap of incompetence, excuses, and self-preserving shoulder-shrugging.

    And as for the experience, you've got the whole mutual aid thing bassackwards. Instead of having mutual aid come in and cover for your inexperienced greenhorn day shift, plead with neighboring departments to call YOU for mutual aid at THEIR fires. We have a number of departments for whom we've done just that, and we run their little balls off even when we don't need the help just so that they can gain some experience. They love it, and it does help them.

    THINK CREATIVELY, and don't accept halfhearted and goodhearted as good enough.
    Last edited by EastKyFF; 04-22-2013 at 08:42 PM.
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    And as for the experience, you've got the whole mutual aid thing bassackwards. Instead of having mutual aid come in and cover for your inexperienced greenhorn day shift, plead with neighboring departments to call YOU for mutual aid at THEIR fires. We have a number of departments for whom we've done just that, and we run their little balls off even when we don't need the help just so that they can gain some experience. They love it, and it does help them.THINK CREATIVELY, and don't accept halfhearted and goodhearted as good enough.[/QUOTE]

    Great idea!

    CRAP!!!!! Still did not work right!

  23. #198
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    Honestly, the fire that LAFire is dreaming up sounds much more interesting than the simple one in the photo.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Train to post the posts you post.
    That's Awesome!
    conrad427 likes this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that's great, however we want to flow more water than an 1 3/4" with the initial line. We would also rather knock down the bulk of the fire from the safety of the exterior vs. the downright hostility of the interior.

    Guess we're just crazy like that.
    That's why you and your FD are jokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Given the frequency that we put hose on the ground, as well as the other stuff that we need to train on, I'm not all that unhappy with 90 seconds. A little faster would be nice but that would mean take something off the training schedule.
    That's why you and your FD are jokes.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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