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Thread: So tell me again what the point of this is??

  1. #21
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    Uhm. No. My father is a psychiatrist and my mother was a wealth manager....literally no family ties to the fire service, outside of me (and believe me, I've checked). There was no "preferential" treatment, it was the SOP for the junior FF program (and...GASP...YES we did have full insurance for the program). I have since left that department to relocate for my FT position, but to the best of my knowledge it is still the ongoing policy and working well.
    Still can't agree with it and would not ride on a rig with a child of that age, or any junior firefighter for that matter.
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  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Ya know, we say that 14-18 YOs shouldn't be fighting fire, yet we all turn out on Friday night to watch them beat the tar out of each other on the football field or execute complex plays on the basketball court.

    Properly trained, with a system of structured progression, those juniors and Explorers can provide a good foundation for our fire departments. A good many join their fire department when they turn 18 (the usual age around here).

    It's also a good opportunity to weed out the true losers before we have to deal with legal challenges if we try to get rid of them once they're of age and have been accepted/appointed.

    Career departments may have people trying to beat down the doors, but that's not a "problem" in the volunteer service. If we can "capture" an interested kid at 14 or so, and can instill them with the proper values, they become an asset.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Ya know, we say that 14-18 YOs shouldn't be fighting fire, yet we all turn out on Friday night to watch them beat the tar out of each other on the football field or execute complex plays on the basketball court.
    I'm not sure I'm getting whatever point you are trying to make. However, I'm pretty sure that 14-18 year old kids are not legally prevented from playing football and basketball, but they are legally prevented from actually fighting fires.

    Properly trained, with a system of structured progression, those juniors and Explorers can provide a good foundation for our fire departments. A good many join their fire department when they turn 18 (the usual age around here).

    It's also a good opportunity to weed out the true losers before we have to deal with legal challenges if we try to get rid of them once they're of age and have been accepted/appointed.

    Career departments may have people trying to beat down the doors, but that's not a "problem" in the volunteer service. If we can "capture" an interested kid at 14 or so, and can instill them with the proper values, they become an asset.
    I agree that a properly run junior program can be beneficial. However, there is a legal and moral obligation to not put them unnecessarily at risk while trying to capture that interest.
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  4. #24
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I am all for a proper junior program where they train and learn equipment and how to maintain it. I will not EVER agree that they should be operating as firefighters on any emergency scene, or responding on any emergency vehicle running hot.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  5. #25
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Our SOP's state that no junior is to be in any hot zones. They are also subject to any and all child labor laws. They also cannot respond to a scene pov. Nor can they take a seat on any department vehicles if there is a senior member to occupy that position. They must always be in direct contact (close enough for voice communication not via radio) with an officer and are under that officer's charge. If the officer is not comfotable with that junior member, they don't go.

    We can and do use them on scene, if they make it there legitimately. They help with accountability, miscellaneous gopher things, and pick up afterwords. We have found that by allowing them on scene under these guidelines, they learn a lot about set up, operations, and other aspects of emergency response. We will not, under any circumstances, allow them in the hot zone, IDLH environment, or anywhere else there is an elevated risk of injury.

    Another bonus that we have found is that we have the less experienced members "teach" the juniors in where things are located, what they are used for, when they would be used, and other elementary things. We have found that this reinforces these functions to the less experienced members and makes sure that they know their stuff. Of course this is done under direct supervision of an officer.

  6. #26
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    Forgot to add that they cannot respond on apparatus going lights and siren.
    Last edited by HuntPA; 04-30-2013 at 03:09 PM.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Pretty much along the lines of what HuntPA described.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #28
    Forum Member conrad427's Avatar
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    We don't have a junior program, maybe because no one has ever asked. Maybe I am way off but I cant believe an IC or the Chief would need anything more to worry about, especially a child on the scene.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Our SOP's state that no junior is to be in any hot zones. They are also subject to any and all child labor laws. They also cannot respond to a scene pov. Nor can they take a seat on any department vehicles if there is a senior member to occupy that position. They must always be in direct contact (close enough for voice communication not via radio) with an officer and are under that officer's charge. If the officer is not comfotable with that junior member, they don't go.

    We can and do use them on scene, if they make it there legitimately. They help with accountability, miscellaneous gopher things, and pick up afterwords. We have found that by allowing them on scene under these guidelines, they learn a lot about set up, operations, and other aspects of emergency response. We will not, under any circumstances, allow them in the hot zone, IDLH environment, or anywhere else there is an elevated risk of injury.

    Another bonus that we have found is that we have the less experienced members "teach" the juniors in where things are located, what they are used for, when they would be used, and other elementary things. We have found that this reinforces these functions to the less experienced members and makes sure that they know their stuff. Of course this is done under direct supervision of an officer.
    Unless they're handing out Gatorade with the Red Cross or the Fire Canteen, there ISN'T a legitimate reason for them to be on any scene.

  10. #30
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
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    When I stated "make it there legitimately" I was stating that they arrived either on apparatus responding on the black, or with an officer in a POV.

    We do not rely on them or even count them on our active roster. But if they can safely be on scene, learn, and assist with specific - nonhazardous tasks, we feel that they are getting valuable experience. Do you learn more by sitting in a class or actually watching it happen real-time?

    For my department and my area, it makes sense. I again reitterate that we do not allow them in hot zones or anywhere near that.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    When I stated "make it there legitimately" I was stating that they arrived either on apparatus responding on the black, or with an officer in a POV.

    We do not rely on them or even count them on our active roster. But if they can safely be on scene, learn, and assist with specific - nonhazardous tasks, we feel that they are getting valuable experience. Do you learn more by sitting in a class or actually watching it happen real-time?

    For my department and my area, it makes sense. I again reitterate that we do not allow them in hot zones or anywhere near that.
    And how many firefighters do you have to assign to supervise the juniors and make sure the juniors don't go into the hot zone??? There's enough to worry about on a scene without having to babysit.
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  12. #32
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.
    This is your rationale? REALLY!!?? Are any of those situations even inherently as dangerous as a fireground operation? You are an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.
    Juniors have no business on the fireground despite whatever lame rationalization you claim.

    You continue to show that you are absolutely pathetic.
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  13. #33
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    scfire86,

    Remember this is the same guy that won't let adults go interior because it is unsafe, but will let juniors operate at car fires and grass fires...
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  14. #34
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    And as someone who has been a wildland fireman for over 30 years, unless you are in a large parking lot or DEEP in the cold black, everywhere has the potiental to be a "hotzone"
    ?

  15. #35
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    I don't have a dog in this fight because my department does not have vollies, PCF's, juniors, or any other non sworn personnel who haven't graduated our drill school on the fireground. I believe, with apologies to the believers here, that anybody who is underage does not belong. The only place I'd feel safe seeing them is on the sidewalk making the "blow your horn" gesture with their arm, as we are coming in to the incident.
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    IAFF

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    scfire86,

    Remember this is the same guy that won't let adults go interior because it is unsafe, but will let juniors operate at car fires and grass fires...

    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #37
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    No. That wasn't me.

    I never had any operational injuries other than sore muscles (that comes from working at something other than putting on a vest) and the normal scrapes that comes with doing manual labor.

    Sometimes we did interior attack with (wait for it)......a three man crew.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-02-2013 at 10:56 PM.
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  18. #38
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    So.... On your department, in your mind, and you fundamentally believe, that minors can operate on an active fire scene, and that's considered safe in your mind.

    But, conducting interior operations, with a 4 man crew of all adults who have been properly trained, after a proper size-up was performed, and the calculated risk assessed and it was determined it was safe to make an interior attack, is unsafe?

    Jesus man, do you listen to yourself think? Do you read what you post?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  19. #39
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    Yet placing children in danger like that is a violation of federal labor law.

    Further, cars on fire sometimes explode, or throw projectiles like gas struts, shocks, struts, bumpers, and more. Further we truly have no idea what is inside of any vehicle on fire we approach.

    Almost every year well trained seasoned professional forest fire fighters die when winds shifted, conditions change, or a flare up occurs. Yet you see no increased danger in having children involved in brush fire fighting.

    As stated previously, you hypocrisy has no bounds.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-03-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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  20. #40
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As stated previously, you hypocrisy has no bounds.
    It's more like his idiocy has no bounds.
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    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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