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Thread: So tell me again what the point of this is??

  1. #26
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    Forgot to add that they cannot respond on apparatus going lights and siren.
    Last edited by HuntPA; 04-30-2013 at 03:09 PM.

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    Pretty much along the lines of what HuntPA described.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We don't have a junior program, maybe because no one has ever asked. Maybe I am way off but I cant believe an IC or the Chief would need anything more to worry about, especially a child on the scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Our SOP's state that no junior is to be in any hot zones. They are also subject to any and all child labor laws. They also cannot respond to a scene pov. Nor can they take a seat on any department vehicles if there is a senior member to occupy that position. They must always be in direct contact (close enough for voice communication not via radio) with an officer and are under that officer's charge. If the officer is not comfotable with that junior member, they don't go.

    We can and do use them on scene, if they make it there legitimately. They help with accountability, miscellaneous gopher things, and pick up afterwords. We have found that by allowing them on scene under these guidelines, they learn a lot about set up, operations, and other aspects of emergency response. We will not, under any circumstances, allow them in the hot zone, IDLH environment, or anywhere else there is an elevated risk of injury.

    Another bonus that we have found is that we have the less experienced members "teach" the juniors in where things are located, what they are used for, when they would be used, and other elementary things. We have found that this reinforces these functions to the less experienced members and makes sure that they know their stuff. Of course this is done under direct supervision of an officer.
    Unless they're handing out Gatorade with the Red Cross or the Fire Canteen, there ISN'T a legitimate reason for them to be on any scene.

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    When I stated "make it there legitimately" I was stating that they arrived either on apparatus responding on the black, or with an officer in a POV.

    We do not rely on them or even count them on our active roster. But if they can safely be on scene, learn, and assist with specific - nonhazardous tasks, we feel that they are getting valuable experience. Do you learn more by sitting in a class or actually watching it happen real-time?

    For my department and my area, it makes sense. I again reitterate that we do not allow them in hot zones or anywhere near that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    When I stated "make it there legitimately" I was stating that they arrived either on apparatus responding on the black, or with an officer in a POV.

    We do not rely on them or even count them on our active roster. But if they can safely be on scene, learn, and assist with specific - nonhazardous tasks, we feel that they are getting valuable experience. Do you learn more by sitting in a class or actually watching it happen real-time?

    For my department and my area, it makes sense. I again reitterate that we do not allow them in hot zones or anywhere near that.
    And how many firefighters do you have to assign to supervise the juniors and make sure the juniors don't go into the hot zone??? There's enough to worry about on a scene without having to babysit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.
    This is your rationale? REALLY!!?? Are any of those situations even inherently as dangerous as a fireground operation? You are an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.
    Juniors have no business on the fireground despite whatever lame rationalization you claim.

    You continue to show that you are absolutely pathetic.
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    scfire86,

    Remember this is the same guy that won't let adults go interior because it is unsafe, but will let juniors operate at car fires and grass fires...
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    And as someone who has been a wildland fireman for over 30 years, unless you are in a large parking lot or DEEP in the cold black, everywhere has the potiental to be a "hotzone"
    ?

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    I don't have a dog in this fight because my department does not have vollies, PCF's, juniors, or any other non sworn personnel who haven't graduated our drill school on the fireground. I believe, with apologies to the believers here, that anybody who is underage does not belong. The only place I'd feel safe seeing them is on the sidewalk making the "blow your horn" gesture with their arm, as we are coming in to the incident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    scfire86,

    Remember this is the same guy that won't let adults go interior because it is unsafe, but will let juniors operate at car fires and grass fires...

    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    No. That wasn't me.

    I never had any operational injuries other than sore muscles (that comes from working at something other than putting on a vest) and the normal scrapes that comes with doing manual labor.

    Sometimes we did interior attack with (wait for it)......a three man crew.
    Last edited by scfire86; 05-02-2013 at 10:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    So.... On your department, in your mind, and you fundamentally believe, that minors can operate on an active fire scene, and that's considered safe in your mind.

    But, conducting interior operations, with a 4 man crew of all adults who have been properly trained, after a proper size-up was performed, and the calculated risk assessed and it was determined it was safe to make an interior attack, is unsafe?

    Jesus man, do you listen to yourself think? Do you read what you post?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ..... with a record of never suffering an operational injury.

    Weren't you the one that in another thread stated that because an operation was completed without an injury it was conducted safely?
    Yet placing children in danger like that is a violation of federal labor law.

    Further, cars on fire sometimes explode, or throw projectiles like gas struts, shocks, struts, bumpers, and more. Further we truly have no idea what is inside of any vehicle on fire we approach.

    Almost every year well trained seasoned professional forest fire fighters die when winds shifted, conditions change, or a flare up occurs. Yet you see no increased danger in having children involved in brush fire fighting.

    As stated previously, you hypocrisy has no bounds.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-03-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As stated previously, you hypocrisy has no bounds.
    It's more like his idiocy has no bounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    So.... On your department, in your mind, and you fundamentally believe, that minors who have meet and exceeded specific and training and performance requirements can operate on an active fire scene in backup positions and in positions operating exterior handlines while under direct supervision of senior members or officers, and that's considered safe in your mind.

    Not that this scenario is for my combo department only where we have access to far more live fire props. the juniors go through the same live fire training as adult members, including burn time, under direct supervision. the juniors on my VFD have no such advantageous, and as such, are much less familiar with live fire situations.

    But, conducting interior operations, with a 4 man crew of all adults who have been properly trained, after a proper size-up was performed, and the calculated risk assessed and it was determined it was safe to make an interior attack, is unsafe?

    Depends on if you are referring to your crew or mine. You may consider your crew to operate under such conditions. I may not consider my crew trained or experienced enough to operate under such conditions.

    Jesus man, do you listen to yourself think? Do you read what you post?
    Again, I have no issues in placing responsibility in some pre-defined situations, in the hands of competent and trained junior members when directly supervised by experienced members. Neither does my department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, I have no issues in placing responsibility in some pre-defined situations, in the hands of competent and trained junior members when directly supervised by experienced members. Neither does my department.
    And Alan Baird had no trouble placing an untrained new member in a live fire training acquired structure with virtually no experience using an SCBA and then set fires beneath him that doomed him and severely burned others.

    My point? Just because you have no issue doing something doesn't make it A) Safe, B) Right. Remember, you are the guy who said openly on these forums you can write off victims and have no issue sleeping at night...Just because you can do that doesn't make it right.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-03-2013 at 08:43 AM. Reason: clarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Sometimes we did interior attack with (wait for it)......a three man crew.
    Show offs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    On your department, in your mind, and you fundamentally believe, that minors who have meet and exceeded specific and training and performance requirements can operate on an active fire scene in backup positions and in positions operating exterior handlines while under direct supervision of senior members or officers, and that's considered safe in your mind.
    So which is it? Are you understaffed and can't have enough people there to make an interior attack, or do you have an abundance of staffing so that you can supervise children on the fire scene? Don't turn this into a "this is my combo, not my volunteer" department bullscat, because you've said repeatedly on these forums that you have staffing issues with both.
    Again, I have no issues in placing responsibility in some pre-defined situations, in the hands of competent and trained junior members when directly supervised by experienced members. Neither does my department.
    I guess if nothing else you're consistent. Hell, you'll let a kid burn to death in a car because you don't have PPE, why not let them get injured or killed on a fire scene, right?
    You're absolutely ridiculous. You don't want any sort of minimum training level, you won't send trained members interior because it's dark and scary, and you'll let minors operate on a fire scene....

    Holy schitt dude, it's time for you to get out of the fire service.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, I have no issues in placing responsibility in some pre-defined situations, in the hands of competent and trained junior members when directly supervised by experienced members. Neither does my department.
    Of course you or your department has no issue with it.

    You're an idiot and your department is a joke.

    I would expect nothing less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And Alan Baird had no trouble placing an untrained new member in a live fire training acquired structure with virtually no experience using an SCBA and then set fires beneath him that doomed him and severely burned others.

    My point? Just because you have no issue doing something doesn't make it A) Safe, B) Right. Remember, you are the guy who said openly on these forums you can write off victims and have no issue sleeping at night...Just because you can do that doesn't make it right.
    First of all, this isn't about ME. The organization determined how involved trained and compenetent junior members who have demonstrated the ability to perform specific performance standards would be in firefighting operations long before I arrived, just like my previous VFD determined how involved trained and compenet junior members would be involved in the firefighting operation.

    Do I have an issue with it? No, as they must complete a skills checklist per DEPARTMENT POLICY demonstrating competency before they are allowed to participate in backup roles during active firefighting operations.

    This isn't my p[olicy to stop or start. It's the policy as determined by the command staff, and they obviously have no issues with it at the current time. You just keep giving me way too much credit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    You're absolutely ridiculous. You don't want any sort of minimum training level, you won't send trained members interior because it's dark and scary, and you'll let minors operate on a fire scene....

    First of all, I never stated anywhere that I did not want any minimum training requirements. I stated that i did not want any state imposed mandated minimum training.

    I have stated many, many times that I feel that every department should have department-developed minimum training standards based on thier specific needs.

    I was responsible for the development of a mandated rookie class at my VFD. I assited in developing newe minimum training standards for promtion at my VFd which are currently being implemented. So before you start throwing around the claim that I don't support minimum training standards, know what you are talking about.

    As far as dark and scary ... No. Increased fire lods, increased heat release rates and less stable structures, yes.

    And see the above post about department policy .. not ME, though I have no significant issues with the practice as in my experience, we have had no problems giving them some experience in backup roles.


    Holy schitt dude, it's time for you to get out of the fire service.
    Nope. Not yet.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First of all, this isn't about ME. The organization determined how involved trained and compenetent junior members who have demonstrated the ability to perform specific performance standards would be in firefighting operations long before I arrived, just like my previous VFD determined how involved trained and compenet junior members would be involved in the firefighting operation.

    Do I have an issue with it? No, as they must complete a skills checklist per DEPARTMENT POLICY demonstrating competency before they are allowed to participate in backup roles during active firefighting operations.

    This isn't my p[olicy to stop or start. It's the policy as determined by the command staff, and they obviously have no issues with it at the current time. You just keep giving me way too much credit.
    The problem is YOUR continual changing of how valuable, or rather how influential, you are on these FDs. One minute you are mandating stopping at green lights and stopping people from going interior and the next you can't even say "HEY PUT YOUR SEATBELT ON!" I just find it hysterical that when you are getting your azz beat over some idiotic, indefensible policy your FD has suddenly you are a nobody with nothing to say and no influence. Even YOU should be able to pick out how ludicrous that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    First of all, this isn't about ME. The organization determined how involved trained and compenetent junior members who have demonstrated the ability to perform specific performance standards would be in firefighting operations long before I arrived, just like my previous VFD determined how involved trained and compenet junior members would be involved in the firefighting operation.

    Do I have an issue with it? No, as they must complete a skills checklist per DEPARTMENT POLICY demonstrating competency before they are allowed to participate in backup roles during active firefighting operations.

    This isn't my p[olicy to stop or start. It's the policy as determined by the command staff, and they obviously have no issues with it at the current time. You just keep giving me way too much credit.
    It's absolutely about you. You are the guy who comes on here constantly condemning and criticizing other departments for conducting interior operations with what you consider unsafe circumstances, who had an issue with the way I (SAFELY) conducted my incident the other day, and who has openly admitted they would let a child burn to death in a car because you didn't have proper PPE.

    But then in the same breath, you turn around and justify having minors on the fire scene, actively engaging in operations at the incident, and because they are doing X or they are doing Y and not doing Z, that makes it safe.

    It doesn't matter what your department policy is. While I disagree with it, that's not the purpose of MY posts. My posts are simply to point out that you are a spineless hypocrite, who is willing to risk the lives of children, but won't break his own finger nail for fear of his own personal safety.

    Do you not see the hypocrisy, and idiocy, of what you say and think? Are you truly that dense?
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-03-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The problem is YOUR continual changing of how valuable, or rather how influential, you are on these FDs. One minute you are mandating stopping at green lights and stopping people from going interior and the next you can't even say "HEY PUT YOUR SEATBELT ON!" I just find it hysterical that when you are getting your azz beat over some idiotic, indefensible policy your FD has suddenly you are a nobody with nothing to say and no influence. Even YOU should be able to pick out how ludicrous that is.
    On my combo department, I have very little influence, and this is the department to which this discussion applies.

    The fact is wwe have been using juniors in this manner for the past 20 years, and in the eyes of the command staff, it has worked as we have produced some very good firefighters who already had real-world experience upon turning 18. I see no reason why they would change course now.
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