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Thread: So tell me again what the point of this is??

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    That's your answer to everything. Wash your hands of it. Are you training officer at this department? Do you assist with training ever? Do you have any interactions with the juniors? Than it's also YOUR issue, because as a parent, I would be after anyone who had any influence, help, assistance, guidance, leadership, etc with the junior program, with the training program, who was on scene at that incident, what ever.

    You can't just simply wash your hands of it because you think it's a department issue, and not your issue.
    The Training Officer is the Deputy Chief. I am the Training Coordinator.

    Policy making lies with the DC. I am primarily responsible for the admin side of training and training delivery.

    I am not washing my hands of anything, but the truth is that any change in the junior program, or how junior members are utilized, would come soley fro the Chief Officer level. And as I have said, they have no issues with the current direction of the program.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Now you're delving into MY argument, that YOU agreed with in the other thread that was wrong. I said something along the lines of I took the calculated risk, we did what we did, no one got hurt, so I considered it a safe operation.

    And that was your evalaution, based in part on the department expectation that interior operations with 4 members is safe and acceptable.

    At one time, I would have agreed that ios is safe. However, my opinion has changed, especially in the casse of my current VFD.


    But now that it applies to your argument, it's okay?

    You are the one saying that since noboy was hurt, it was safe. Using the same logic, utilizing juniors in limited fireground capacities is also safe, simply because we have never gotten anyone hurt.


    So now because it applies to you and your junior program, the same argument I made concerning trained, well equipped firefighters making an interior attack now applies?
    If it applies to one arguement, it applies to another.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm pretty sure Wal-Mart is always looking for someone to push carts back inside.
    The risk v. reward profile on that probably isn't good enough for him.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So a 17 1/2-year old is a child but at 18 he magically becomes an adult?
    In the eyes of the law, Yes.

    Sorry, but a trained and competent 17 year old poses no greater safety risk when involved in a backup rolethan an 18-year old in the same position.
    While that 17 year old may not be a greater safety risk than an 18 year old in that same position, child labor laws say that he can't be used in the same fashion as the 18 year old. It's really that simple.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is more kids will be injured at the first high school football game down the road here in septemeber than we ever have injured allowing junior members to perform limited fireground tasks in the history of this fire department.

    (Which by the way is ... Wait for it ...... ZERO)

    Maybe we should ban high school football if you are that concerned about minors being injured.
    Some people are advocating for that course of action. However, again, minors playing high school football is not prohibited by child labor laws.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    And how many firefighters do you have to assign to supervise the juniors and make sure the juniors don't go into the hot zone??? There's enough to worry about on a scene without having to babysit.
    For a junior to be on scene, they must be under the direct supervision of an officer. If the officer is too busy, does not trust/know the junior, then they will tell them to sit in the truck or stay at the station. For them to come to a scene, an officer has to ok it.

    Sorry to intrude on the LAFE vs. the world thread here. I am just letting you know how we do it and how it is different than his way.

  7. #67
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    It sounds like you shouldn't be the judge on what your department needs, because your needs and thoughts are not consistent with the rest of the fire service.

    I know for a fact that most volunteer Chiefs in LA do not support mandated minimum standards, and based on the aricle I posted in another thread, it sure sounds like that is the case in TX too.

    I think if you got out more, you would find that those that support minimum standards are in the minority nationwide.


    First of all, not supporting minimum standards in something as important as firefighting is nothing to cheer about. Further, hopefully this will put an end to volunteers in your state and Texas wanting to be thought of as the same as career professional firefighters. Especially in Texas where career firefighters still must meet a state mandated training standard.

    So would you applaud as loudly and in equal support if there were no law enforcement standards? Or Pharmacist standards? Or Doctors? Or Teachers? Or Dentists? Or EMS? Or haz-mat? Or is it just that you don't like being told what to teach your firefighters because it usurps your kingdom?


    So, before I start throwing claims around, I should know what I'm taking about? You mean kind of like how you shouldn't chastize the way any other department conducts their incidents because your grasp on the fire service only includes the knowledge that we drive big trucks and wear helmets.

    I really don't care what you do. if you felt that it was safe, fine, but I woukld not consider that safe with the majority of the personnel at my VFD, and certainly that would be the case for just about all of the departments in my parish as the training and experience simply sin't there to safely support that level of aggressiveness.

    You do care you hypocrite, and then in the very next breath you go on to tell us about how your Chief, with no scba, enters a house with a known fire and extinguishes the fire with a fir extinguisher. With no back up line in place no 2 in 2 out, no RIT, no outisde command, no safety officer. Further you then go on to say yu had extension from the original fire. Just wondering if your chief ever exited to put on scba or if he just used his pretend magical shield to protect himself from toxic gases and smoke...Yet what LT Chenzo did in full ppe and scba was deemed unsafe by you. REALLY?

    If you feel that you can operate interior with 4 folks on the fireground, and something goes bad, have at it.

    At least our 2 that operated interior had full ppe, scba, and a charged handline. Not no scba and a fire extinguisher. Tell me again who seems unsafe here?

    That being said it should not be an expectation that every department should be able to make an interior attack with 4 members on the fireground.

    No, but let's make it okay for your chief to run in without scba and a fire extinguisher...what a joke you are Bobby!

    As far as my knowledge about fire service operations, I doubt you want to go there.

    I'll go there. I would put my knowledge up against yours any day. Because to be brutally honest you don't impress me and further I would hazard a bet you don't impress many others here either. You are a little fish in a puddle who desperately wants to be a big fish. Sorry, that dream isn't coming true for you.


    That's why you train. To be able to recognize when the increased fire loads and heat release rates will lead to a cataclysmic schitt storm that's about to develop.

    No disagreement there.

    Tha being said, to effectivly do that requires the ability to conduct live burns. Fact is most departments in this area have no or very limited burn capability. That is the case with my VFD.

    So they are allowed to utilize your combo FDs burn tower or they aren't? Which story are we going with here today?



    It's absolutely about you when you coming on here armchair-warrioring everyone else's incidents because they were unsafe, then say you have no problem putting children in harms way[/COLOR]

    So a 17 1/2-year old is a child but at 18 he magically becomes an adult? Sorry, but a trained and competent 17 year old poses no greater safety risk when involved in a backup rolethan an 18-year old in the same position.

    Um, yes. In the eyes of the law, unless that 17 1/2 year old has been emancipated he is a child. Believe what ever you wish. The negative impacts of your ignorance do not directly affect me.
    Just more of your doublespeak claptrap.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did I say that you made a bad call.

    You have repeatedly questioned his actions and the safety thereof.

    You were operating in the manner that you have been trained. You were operating in amanner that likely meet department expecatations. And sadly, that has become fire service expectations.

    Yeah, it's sad that you see saving lives and property as a negative fire service expectation.

    However, I dispute that any interior operation with only 4 me3mbers by any department is not safe, and never will be.

    This sentence is so convoluted that you don't even know what the hell you are saying. You first say that you dispute it is not safe, meaning you believe it is safe, then you say never will be. What college did you go to again?

    Minors that have completed the exact same training requirements and demonstrated the same level of competancy as thier adult counterparts.

    Federal labor law...look into it sometime.

    Funny thing is more kids will be injured at the first high school football game down the road here in septemeber than we ever have injured allowing junior members to perform limited fireground tasks in the history of this fire department.

    Not relevant. Frankly another completely dumb azz comparison.

    (Which by the way is ... Wait for it ...... ZERO)

    Let's hope for the children's sake it stays that way.

    Maybe we should ban high school football if you are that concerned about minors being injured.

    Maybe you should try to stay on topic one time instead of going off on idiotic tangents of no relevance.
    Another dose of LA blather...
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The Training Officer is the Deputy Chief. I am the Training Coordinator.

    So what do you actually do besides spend the majority of your day sounding like a buffoon on FH.com?

    Policy making lies with the DC. I am primarily responsible for the admin side of training and training delivery.

    So you are nothing more than a robotic follower with no input, just garbage in garbage out type of employee. Wow! That must really be fulfilling.

    I am not washing my hands of anything, but the truth is that any change in the junior program, or how junior members are utilized, would come soley fro the Chief Officer level. And as I have said, they have no issues with the current direction of the program.

    Well, even if YOU had issues of it your describing yourself as the spineless follower, who wouldn't even mention failure to follow the seatbelt policy, wouldn't allow you to take any action anyways....now would it?
    Just more of the same from you LA.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I know for a fact that most volunteer Chiefs in LA do not support mandated minimum standards, and based on the aricle I posted in another thread, it sure sounds like that is the case in TX too.

    I think if you got out more, you would find that those that support minimum standards are in the minority nationwide.
    Yeah. Those lax standards worked out real well in West, TX. Wouldn't you agree?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    For a junior to be on scene, they must be under the direct supervision of an officer. If the officer is too busy, does not trust/know the junior, then they will tell them to sit in the truck or stay at the station. For them to come to a scene, an officer has to ok it.

    Sorry to intrude on the LAFE vs. the world thread here. I am just letting you know how we do it and how it is different than his way.
    I personally don't like either way. I would never agree to supervise a minor on scene, even if he were the offspring of Johnny Gage and Roy Desoto.
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  12. #72
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    At my second department, they are in the beginning stages of transitioning the EMS explorers into the fire side of things. As I haven't been involved with the explorer program at all, I can't say as to what the end goal or their overall intentions are. However what I can say is that I will not be a party to minors on the fire scene, nor will I drive a rig out the door with an explorer in that truck for an incident.

    Train, hang out at the station and get to know people, go through the trucks, wash the trucks, clean equipment, whatever. I'm all good with an explorer program getting kids interested in the fire service, and getting them a jump start on their knowledge base. I'm not interested, and will not be a party to, minors on the fire ground though.

    Simple as that.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    in my state the drinking age is 21, not 20, not 20 and eleven months. Pretty good chance the judge wont think ,'well 20 is close enough"
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    ?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator


    So a 17 1/2-year old is a child but at 18 he magically becomes an adult?
    Yes. Have sex with a 17 1/2-year-old and you'll find out all about that kind of magic.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So a 17 1/2-year old is a child but at 18 he magically becomes an adult?
    Thereby reinforcing yet another stereotype we libs have about hayseeds like you in backward parts of the country.

    Were you and your wife related before you got married?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thereby reinforcing yet another stereotype we libs have about hayseeds like you in backward parts of the country.

    Were you and your wife related before you got married?
    OK -now its personal -to the best of my knowledge, LA is from the North East part of the country, he just moved South to infect the country kinda like a boll weevil. Ill refrain from passing on my sterotypes of you liberals from the left coast trying to californicate the rest of us.
    ?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    OK -now its personal -to the best of my knowledge, LA is from the North East part of the country, he just moved South to infect the country kinda like a boll weevil. Ill refrain from passing on my sterotypes of you liberals from the left coast trying to californicate the rest of us.
    Don't take it personal. Hayseeds from the backwards part of the country are from all over this country. In fact some of the biggest Hayseeds I have ever known never set a foot outside of the city they live in but you would swear they were some inbred moron from a stereotypicial location. As much as some would like to paint it as geographical it isn't, it is just a personality trait that some people can't escape, no matter where they live or where they are from.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-05-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Don't take it personal. Hayseeds from the backwards part of the country are from all over this country. In fact some of the biggest Hayseeds I have ever known never set a foot outside of the city they live in but you would swear they were some inbred moron from a stereotypicial location. As much as some would like to paint it as geographical it isn't, it is just a personality trait that some people can't escape, no matter where they live or where they are from.
    Iwas just kidding about taking it personal,SC fire cant help his outlook, if I was sourrounded by nancy pelosi fans,Im sure I would eveuntally crack also. I really shouldnt have used the boll weevil analogy to describe la. I think a formosan termite would be more apt.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If it applies to one arguement, it applies to another.
    How did I miss this gem?

    No, no it doesn't. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here, so it absolutely does not apply to both arguments.

    You're trying to justify having junior firefighters (minors, children) on the fire scene and saying that's safe because they are being supervised by an officer or senior firefighter.

    In the same breath you're condemning me because myself, another interior trained firefighter, a trained MPO, and an interior trained firefighter conducting exterior operations, made an aggressive interior attack (safely, with a calculated risk) on a fire that was properly sized up and assessed, and you're deeming that unsafe because I didn't have your necessary set of safety values in place.

    Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, if you didn't have firefighters and officers supervising children on the fire scene, that you would have enough viable members to make more aggressive attacks? Not that it matters, because that's obviously not your mission anyway.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    How did I miss this gem?

    No, no it doesn't. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here, so it absolutely does not apply to both arguments.

    You're trying to justify having junior firefighters (minors, children) on the fire scene and saying that's safe because they are being supervised by an officer or senior firefighter.

    In the same breath you're condemning me because myself, another interior trained firefighter, a trained MPO, and an interior trained firefighter conducting exterior operations, made an aggressive interior attack (safely, with a calculated risk) on a fire that was properly sized up and assessed, and you're deeming that unsafe because I didn't have your necessary set of safety values in place.

    Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, if you didn't have firefighters and officers supervising children on the fire scene, that you would have enough viable members to make more aggressive attacks? Not that it matters, because that's obviously not your mission anyway.
    Both you and Fryed have stated that because nobody was hurt in your situation the attack was safe. The definition of safe seemed to be that nobody was hurt.

    Given the same criteria, I can define the utilization of trained juniors in limited roles in an active non-interior fire attack under the direct supervision of an officer or senior member in both my current combo and previous VFD as safe, as none of them were ever hurt in a firefighting role.

    If you define no injuries as safe, so will I.

    As far as the supervision comment, this would only apply to my combo department as juniors in my current VFD, which is my understaffed department, have very minimal fireground involvement. We currently have no juniors. As far as my combo department, finding enough officers or senior members to supervise them is not an issue.
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