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Thread: So tell me again what the point of this is??

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    Default So tell me again what the point of this is??

    Why in the world does a fire dept. need a friggin' 14 year old "Junior Firefighter"??? 99% of 14 year old boys could be catergorized as having A.D.D.. That's just a recipe for trouble.

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/109266...king-car-in-pa


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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Why in the world does a fire dept. need a friggin' 14 year old "Junior Firefighter"??? 99% of 14 year old boys could be catergorized as having A.D.D.. That's just a recipe for trouble.

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/109266...king-car-in-pa
    I have said it before and I will not waiver that kids, anyone under 18 years old, have no business responding to fire calls. How many deaths and injuries will it take before this insane practice stops?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I have said it before and I will not waiver that kids, anyone under 18 years old, have no business responding to fire calls. How many deaths and injuries will it take before this insane practice stops?
    I heartily concur. Further, they are not ready physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, etc etc for what the fire service will show them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF-Andy View Post
    I heartily concur. Further, they are not ready physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, etc etc for what the fire service will show them.
    Not going to touch the responding issue. But, in terms of "they are not ready physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, etc etc for what the fire service will show them," please don't generalize the entire teenage population. Is that true of some? Yes. But not all.

    I started responding to calls as a ride along at 13, and of course I saw a decent amount of bad situations. But, I can honestly say it did not impact me negatively. As a matter of fact, I consider it a great benefit. I was able to get some exposure and experience with bad situations BEFORE I turned 18, got out of EMT and Fire 2 class, and was out there actually "doing it." This made me MUCH less nervous and anxious going out on runs when I first started and allowed me to concentrate, preform, and learn.

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    i agree with FyredUp, anyone under 18 should not be responding to calls period. in my dept this is how it goes, if you are a explorer, under 18 you dont even respond to the calls. you get all your hands on training at the house and are welcome to hang around as much as you like but i think it is only right that only 18 and over you respond. yes the younger fellas are impatient and want to do everything with the rest of the guys but it comes with the territory. hopefully an end can be put to this before anyone else gets injured

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    Not going to touch the responding issue. But, in terms of "they are not ready physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, etc etc for what the fire service will show them," please don't generalize the entire teenage population. Is that true of some? Yes. But not all.

    I started responding to calls as a ride along at 13, and of course I saw a decent amount of bad situations. But, I can honestly say it did not impact me negatively. As a matter of fact, I consider it a great benefit. I was able to get some exposure and experience with bad situations BEFORE I turned 18, got out of EMT and Fire 2 class, and was out there actually "doing it." This made me MUCH less nervous and anxious going out on runs when I first started and allowed me to concentrate, preform, and learn.
    The fact that you are a rare exception in no way justifies this practice. I have to question the judgement of your parents and the fire chief to allow you to ride along at only 13. We don't even allow kids to ride the trucks in a parade.

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    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.

    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-28-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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    There is no reason for children to be on the fire ground. Period. If your justification is solely based on the fact "you need them", you may want to reconsider your recruiting and hire practices.
    LA proved it; if kids are to stupid not to get killed "running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose", they sure in the hell have no place on the fireground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.
    I find it kind of ironic that as such a staunch risk v. benefit guy that you would support putting kids at risk (them responding to the station for calls) when there is little to no benefit from having them at the incident since they legally can't do much of anything to mitigate the incident.

    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.
    What do you define "significantly involved in fireground operations" to be?

    Again, kind of ironic that you seam to be so liberal with children on the fireground while being so conservative with adults on the fireground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I find it kind of ironic that as such a staunch risk v. benefit guy that you would support putting kids at risk (them responding to the station for calls) when there is little to no benefit from having them at the incident since they legally can't do much of anything to mitigate the incident.

    They fill an important role.

    What do you define "significantly involved in fireground operations" to be?


    We have allowed our juniors to be involved in fire attack on brush fires. We have allowed them to operate exterior handlines at structure fires. We have allowed them to be in the backup position at vehicle fires.

    This is all based on their level of training. Not all of our juniors have been put in these roles, but those have attended the training and demonstrated the ability have been used in these ways.


    Again, kind of ironic that you seam to be so liberal with children on the fireground while being so conservative with adults on the fireground.
    Nothing ironic. If members are trained, they are allowed to perform if conditions and resources, and the viability of the situation permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I find it kind of ironic that as such a staunch risk v. benefit guy that you would support putting kids at risk (them responding to the station for calls) when there is little to no benefit from having them at the incident since they legally can't do much of anything to mitigate the incident.

    They fill an important role.


    What do you define "significantly involved in fireground operations" to be?

    We have allowed our juniors to be involved in fire attack on brush fires. We have allowed them to operate exterior handlines at structure fires. We have allowed them to be in the backup position at vehicle fires.

    This is all based on their level of training. Not all of our juniors have been put in these roles, but those have attended the training and demonstrated the ability have been used in these ways.
    I can't speak for the child labor laws for your state, but I know that all of those activities are prohibited by the child labor laws in my state.

    Given the willingness to disregard federal labor laws regarding your career staff, a willingness to violate child labor laws too wouldn't surprise me.

    Apparently that "important role" they fill is that of a "senior" firefighter.

    Again, kind of ironic that you seam to be so liberal with children on the fireground while being so conservative with adults on the fireground.

    Nothing ironic. If members are trained, they are allowed to perform if conditions and resources, and the viability of the situation permit.
    It's very ironic, you just don't see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    Not going to touch the responding issue. But, in terms of "they are not ready physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, etc etc for what the fire service will show them," please don't generalize the entire teenage population. Is that true of some? Yes. But not all.

    I started responding to calls as a ride along at 13, and of course I saw a decent amount of bad situations. But, I can honestly say it did not impact me negatively. As a matter of fact, I consider it a great benefit. I was able to get some exposure and experience with bad situations BEFORE I turned 18, got out of EMT and Fire 2 class, and was out there actually "doing it." This made me MUCH less nervous and anxious going out on runs when I first started and allowed me to concentrate, preform, and learn.
    Frankly, I would question the judgement of any fire chief, fire department, fire board, local political board, or for that matter the parents of the 13 year old that would approve the process of allowing a you to "ride along" in an emergency responding vehicle to an actual emergency call. Further, your justification of it still does not make it right or safe. Sorry, I would never support this in any fashion.

    My guess is your dad was either the chief, or an officer, of this department and you got preferential treatment in this regard, and it most definitely was not a standard policy within your department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.

    Idiotic and completely unrelated to the fact that allowing children, and yes, that's what they are, to respond emergency to fire calls places them at a significantly increased risk of being injured or killed than running with friends or across the street. There is not now and there never will be, any justification for using children that way. Your uber safety nonsense dies right on the vine when you start talking about using children in actual firefighting situations. It makes you look like a pathological liar about all your safety BS when you see nothing wrong with exposing children to this danger.

    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.

    Your opinion doesn't mean jack squat when you violate federal labor laws. But then again it won't matter to you until you hurt or kill someone and the piper plays a different tune. The fact that you have no standards for training spreads out into no standards for keeping children safe. Every time you post yu prove what an utter buffoon you are.
    This type of crap is exactly why you are a poison to the fire service. You preach uber nonsense safety for firefighters yet see no problem with exposing children to actual fire conditions. Pathetic.
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    Any community that relies on children for their fire protection should be proud to be in the same company as 3rd world nations that have 14 year old factory workers and child soldiers. Really a bright spot of the American Fire Service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Here and there View Post
    Any community that relies on children for their fire protection should be proud to be in the same company as 3rd world nations that have 14 year old factory workers and child soldiers. Really a bright spot of the American Fire Service.

    Neither my current combo or previous VFD relies/relied on children for response.

    The fact is we age them to opportunity to be involved on-scene so that when they hit the age of 18, they had a certain level of experience and were very close to being ready to be on the nozzle at a vehicle fire, make entry on a structure fire or wok on a roof.

    Yes, we are/were aggressive with their training, And yes, we were aggressive with the responsibility that we gave them on-scene. But the only ones that were given that responsibility were those that trained hard and were prepared. We had/have many juniors that were not given those opportunities because they didn't train hard and prepare,

    And by the way, not one suffered an injury beyond a sprained ankle from stepping in a gopher hole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Neither my current combo or previous VFD relies/relied on children for response.

    The fact is we age them to opportunity to be involved on-scene so that when they hit the age of 18, they had a certain level of experience and were very close to being ready to be on the nozzle at a vehicle fire, make entry on a structure fire or wok on a roof.

    Yes, we are/were aggressive with their training, And yes, we were aggressive with the responsibility that we gave them on-scene. But the only ones that were given that responsibility were those that trained hard and were prepared. We had/have many juniors that were not given those opportunities because they didn't train hard and prepare,

    And by the way, not one suffered an injury beyond a sprained ankle from stepping in a gopher hole.
    And the truth finally emerges why you are so adamantly opposed to state mandated standards. It would immediately end your little underage sweat shop operation. You are seriously the biggest damn hypocrite I have ever seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And the truth finally emerges why you are so adamantly opposed to state mandated standards. It would immediately end your little underage sweat shop operation. You are seriously the biggest damn hypocrite I have ever seen.
    Sweat shop? Really?

    Actually since junior members cannot test until the age of 18, it would likely have no effect on them.

    We tell them if they want to opportunity to assist in fighting fire they must train hard, take classes and prepare top do just that. We also tell them that if they get some experience as a junior, and that is only if they train hard and prepare, they will likely be in the head of the line for advanced training when they turn 18. So if they choose to train hard and prepare, they get the opportunity to be involved in firefighting and responsibility as a junior.

    We don't force them to do anything but attend weekly training, complete a skills checklist and get CPR and NIMS 100-200, which is the same basic requirement for adult members. Everything beyond that is their choice and determined by their level of motivation.

    Ya, your're right. A real sweat shop.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-29-2013 at 01:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually since junior members cannot test until the age of 18, it would likely have no effect on them.
    This would be true provided that their department is following the child labor laws now.

    Based on what you have stated about how you are using them now, mandatory certification would effect them as they would not be certified to operate on the fireground until reaching 18. Although, given your department's willingness to violate federal labor laws and child labor laws, I guess mandatory certification wouldn't actually effect them since you guys would probably just ignore that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And how many times are kids killed, throughout this country running to catch up with friends, running to baseball games or running across the street for any other purpose? I would suspect several times a day.

    I was/am lucky enough to have been in two strong departments with very good junior programs where the juniors were significantly involved in fireground operations, and IMO, as long as there is training, controls and supervision in place, it's not an issue.
    And in none of those instances was the fire dept. in any way liable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Frankly, I would question the judgement of any fire chief, fire department, fire board, local political board, or for that matter the parents of the 13 year old that would approve the process of allowing a you to "ride along" in an emergency responding vehicle to an actual emergency call. Further, your justification of it still does not make it right or safe. Sorry, I would never support this in any fashion.

    My guess is your dad was either the chief, or an officer, of this department and you got preferential treatment in this regard, and it most definitely was not a standard policy within your department.
    Uhm. No. My father is a psychiatrist and my mother was a wealth manager....literally no family ties to the fire service, outside of me (and believe me, I've checked). There was no "preferential" treatment, it was the SOP for the junior FF program (and...GASP...YES we did have full insurance for the program). I have since left that department to relocate for my FT position, but to the best of my knowledge it is still the ongoing policy and working well.

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