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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    The problem is, and simply remains, that YOUR definition of "viable property, enough training, experiences, and resources" vastly differs from the rest of the fire service.

    It very well might. But then again, the resources that I have on hand vary significantly when looking at my two departments.

    Regardless of what you want to believe, your thought process and values are NOT the norm, sorry.
    Not as much as you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It very well might. But then again, the resources that I have on hand vary significantly when looking at my two departments.
    And there's your typical cop out. I don't have enough resources. Don't talk to me about resources. I'd be willing to bet that if you compare my department that fought the structure fire last week against your volunteer department, that your perceived resources are greater than what it appears that I have. The only difference is, my officers, and firefighters have something that you and your guys don't: Backbones.
    Not as much as you think.
    Hmmm... Yeah, yeah just as much as I think.
    Again, regardless of what you think, your thought processes and tactics are not the norm, I promise you that.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The "big shots" are the ones that will have to justify the risk and the operations in front of OSHA, NIOSH and at the civil trial if things go bad ... and you won't. Bottom line is that they are protecting the departments butt in terms of answering to the regulatory agencies, and heavens forbid the courts.

    Just keep that in mind.
    You know what keeps firefighters out of the spotlight with OSHA and NIOSH, and keeps them out of civil trial cases?
    TRAINING

    If you send your members to classes, and actually train your members on aggressive tactics, they'll have the knowledge they need to conduct successful operations.

    Training is too expensive in LA? THEN FIGHT TO FIX IT, and make it affordable. Don't sit on your hands and make excuses.

    But that doesn't fit with your "I'm better than Joe Smith who's house just burned down. I don't want to risk anything to save his stuff, so I'll stand over here and pass out vests."

    You're the saddest excuse for a "firefighter" I've ever seen.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    And there's your typical cop out. I don't have enough resources. Don't talk to me about resources. I'd be willing to bet that if you compare my department that fought the structure fire last week against your volunteer department, that your perceived resources are greater than what it appears that I have. The only difference is, my officers, and firefighters have something that you and your guys don't: Backbones.
    Not as much as you think.

    You call it a cop-out. Fine.

    To expect my guys to jump into a fight without the right resources is ...... Irresponsible.

    Have our resources improved? Yes, and compared to many of the VFDFs in this part of the state, we have what some would consider a pretty good rolling fleet, hand tools and equipment.But we are still short of the most critical resource ... Manpower. And with the exception of the officer staff, what manpower we has has very little in the way of experience. You call that a cop-out if youu wish.

    Again, you want to bring my guys into this. As I have stated before, it's not them .. It's me. It's my job to hold them back when the time isn't right to be aggressive. They may want to do what's right but it's not always right to allow them to do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call it a cop-out. Fine.
    I'm calling it as I see it. And I see it as a cop out.

    To expect my guys to jump into a fight without the right resources is ...... Irresponsible.
    And no one is promoting irresponsibility, in everyone else's sense of the word. I'm promoting doing the damn job you signed up for, taking the risks you knew accompanied it when you joined, and doing what your community expects you to do, put the damn fire out, not save the basement.

    Have our resources improved? Yes, and compared to many of the VFDFs in this part of the state, we have what some would consider a pretty good rolling fleet, hand tools and equipment.But we are still short of the most critical resource ... Manpower. And with the exception of the officer staff, what manpower we has has very little in the way of experience. You call that a cop-out if youu wish.
    How many members are on your VFD LA? How many people, on average, show up to a call on any given day? What are you trying to portray as "low manpower?" There's 19 guys on the roster at the department I'm LT at. On any given day, at any given time, we get between 3 and 12 of them to show up for a call, regardless of what it is. AND WE STILL AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE FIRE. So what are you trying to constitute as low manpower?

    Again, you want to bring my guys into this. As I have stated before, it's not them .. It's me. It's my job to hold them back when the time isn't right to be aggressive. They may want to do what's right but it's not always right to allow them to do it.
    Sooo... Which is it? You have responsibility or you don't? You're "in charge" of guys or you're not? Because one minute you say that none of this or anything is your responsibility, and then you jump threads and make it sound like you are the all knowing all commanding prophet of your fire department. So which is it? Are you someone or are you no one?
    Fine, I'll leave your guys out of this.

    YOU, get out of the fire service so "your" guys can do the job they signed up to do, not be ordered to sit in the yard and watch Maggie-Sue's house burn down.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    All else being equal having a common training standard is a good thing. The concern I have would be how that standard is applied and implemented. It is easy for me to say that Every FF should have to take a FF1 course.. but I have a State-certified Fire Academy 20 minutes up the road. I don't live in Texas where the closest one may be 2 hours away. I can certainly see how a training mandate, when it doesn't come with some funding, could break a small VFD due to course costs and logistics.

    How do you 'fix' that if you're a chief in a small VFD and can either send 2 guys to FF1 or fuel the truck for another week? (Assuming you can convince the guys to drive 4 hours round-trip twice a week for 6 months).
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And there's your typical cop out. I don't have enough resources. Don't talk to me about resources. I'd be willing to bet that if you compare my department that fought the structure fire last week against your volunteer department, that your perceived resources are greater than what it appears that I have. The only difference is, my officers, and firefighters have something that you and your guys don't: Backbones.
    Not as much as you think.

    You call it a cop-out. Fine.

    To expect my guys to jump into a fight without the right resources is ...... Irresponsible.

    Have our resources improved? Yes, and compared to many of the VFDFs in this part of the state, we have what some would consider a pretty good rolling fleet, hand tools and equipment.But we are still short of the most critical resource ... Manpower. And with the exception of the officer staff, what manpower we has has very little in the way of experience. You call that a cop-out if youu wish.

    Again, you want to bring my guys into this. As I have stated before, it's not them .. It's me. It's my job to hold them back when the time isn't right to be aggressive. They may want to do what's right but it's not always right to allow them to do it.
    Maybe instead of sending you to aircraft and train firefighting school they should send a few of your volunteers to LSU for live fire training...Utilization of resources to the most efficient extent.
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    How do you 'fix' that if you're a chief in a small VFD and can either send 2 guys to FF1 or fuel the truck for another week? (Assuming you can convince the guys to drive 4 hours round-trip twice a week for 6 months).

    Plus hold down a full time job and maybe family

    Yes they need training just Texas is a strange animal when it comes to that

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    I guess Wisconsin does training much differently than the rest of the country. The tech college I teach for does offer on campus Fire Training classes like entry level and FF1, but most often those classes are taught out in our district at the fire departments and the only time we head to the campus is for live fire training and roof ladder evolutions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Maybe instead of sending you to aircraft and train firefighting school they should send a few of your volunteers to LSU for live fire training...Utilization of resources to the most efficient extent.
    3 of the 4 members that attended that school attended structural firefighting classes ... 1 basic and 2 advanced.

    The leadeership felt that the class that I took was a good fit for the department, but what do they know?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Double post.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-06-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And no one is promoting irresponsibility, in everyone else's sense of the word. I'm promoting doing the damn job you signed up for, taking the risks you knew accompanied it when you joined, and doing what your community expects you to do, put the damn fire out, not save the basement

    And I do the job that I signed up for. I guess yound I see a fundamentally different picture of the risk that we are expected to take.

    I will do what we can do garanteeing that my personel will be perfectly able to support thier famalies at the end of the fire call. And I beleive that is all the community expects.


    How many members are on your VFD LA? How many people, on average, show up to a call on any given day? What are you trying to portray as "low manpower?" There's 19 guys on the roster at the department I'm LT at. On any given day, at any given time, we get between 3 and 12 of them to show up for a call, regardless of what it is. AND WE STILL AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE FIRE. So what are you trying to constitute as low manpower?

    My VFD has 16 names on the roster. of those 16, 10-11 are truly active, and 8 are interior-qualified. The remaining 6 show up for runs quite infrequently, and whne they do, they are generally exterior members. Likely 1 or 2 will be off the roster within the next week or two.

    Daytime response can be between 1 and 5. Nightime response will be, for a fire or working MVA 6-8.

    Take away your IC, and likely 2 pump operators, and that is our interior staffing until AMA arrives with 3-5.

    If you want to aggressivly attack the fire with low manpower, have at it, but don't come crying to me when things go bad and there is nobody to come in and pull a second line or perform firefighter rescue.


    Sooo... Which is it? You have responsibility or you don't? You're "in charge" of guys or you're not? Because one minute you say that none of this or anything is your responsibility, and then you jump threads and make it sound like you are the all knowing all commanding prophet of your fire department. So which is it? Are you someone or are you no one?

    Depends on the department. For the purposes of this discussion, I have been referring to my VFD. I am an LT who coodinates and delivers training with the Training Captain. I assist in developing operational policy. I never stated anything about being the all seeing and all knowing Oz, but I do have a significant role.


    Fine, I'll leave your guys out of this.

    YOU, get out of the fire service so "your" guys can do the job they signed up to do, not be ordered to sit in the yard and watch Maggie-Sue's house burn down.
    Funny, I never remeber ordering anyone to sit in the yard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I guess Wisconsin does training much differently than the rest of the country. The tech college I teach for does offer on campus Fire Training classes like entry level and FF1, but most often those classes are taught out in our district at the fire departments and the only time we head to the campus is for live fire training and roof ladder evolutions.
    Agreed.. and I admit I don't know squat about VFD's in Texas. It's just easy for me to picture the politicians on both sides trying to push something that would be very hard for the VFD's to comply with. I can also see OTHER politicians trying to correct the first group through legislation that on its surface sounds extremely regressive.
    So you call this your free country
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My VFD has 16 names on the roster. of those 16, 10-11 are truly active, and 8 are interior-qualified. The remaining 6 show up for runs quite infrequently, and whne they do, they are generally exterior members. Likely 1 or 2 will be off the roster within the next week or two.
    That's essentially right on par with us, soooo that's perfect for the sake of all of this discussion.

    Daytime response can be between 1 and 5. Nightime response will be, for a fire or working MVA 6-8.
    Again, right on par. We ran M/A to my other department about a month ago for a structure fire, we took 3 guys. We had that structure fire last week, we had 4 guys at 1430hrs, and ended the call at 1700hrs with 10 guys, 2 of which were not qualified to do anything because they haven't finished their classes yet, so they filled bottles. So realistically we ended with 8 guys from my department. We had 4 guys from my second department, and probably 10 guys from another neighboring department. You've frequently talked about mutual aid as well, so where are your mutual aid crews? And why is it taking them so long to get there? The first engine with 4 people to that fire last week was alone for 10 minutes, but I knew I had help coming. Why do you feel you need to wait for all those bodies to be ON scene before you start any sort of aggressive attack?

    Take away your IC, and likely 2 pump operators, and that is our interior staffing until AMA arrives with 3-5.
    You don't need to take away your IC. Remember the other thread? WORKING command. Why 2 pump operators? Why do you need to have two of your TWO of your own engines flowing water right away when you have M/A coming?

    If you want to aggressivly attack the fire with low manpower, have at it, but don't come crying to me when things go bad and there is nobody to come in and pull a second line or perform firefighter rescue.
    [COLOR=RED]Again, calculated risk. If I brought any other firefighter to the scene of this fire, explained to them what I saw, where we entered, and what we did, I would bet they would agree with what I did. If you're calculated risk means you have to have ideal conditions to make an interior attack, you go ahead and handle it that way. I will, whether I like it or not, work with what I have to mitigate the problem. Because, ya know, more often than not, if you actually put the fire out, the risk goes away. Huh, who woulda thunk it.
    Just because you didn't say "Sit in the yard" doesn't mean that's not what you're advocating, unless your conditions are jussstttt right. Fine, would you rather I say "conduct exterior operations on a structure that you could otherwise successfully conduct interior operations on?" Does that make it sound better?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The leadeership felt that the class that I took was a good fit for the department, but what do they know?
    Apparently not much. They should know they are sending someone to training who has ZERO intention of ever using that training.
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    Are you, or have you ever, been an active EMT running on an ambulance LA?
    Last edited by Chenzo; 05-06-2013 at 04:46 PM.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    All else being equal having a common training standard is a good thing. The concern I have would be how that standard is applied and implemented. It is easy for me to say that Every FF should have to take a FF1 course.. but I have a State-certified Fire Academy 20 minutes up the road. I don't live in Texas where the closest one may be 2 hours away. I can certainly see how a training mandate, when it doesn't come with some funding, could break a small VFD due to course costs and logistics.

    How do you 'fix' that if you're a chief in a small VFD and can either send 2 guys to FF1 or fuel the truck for another week? (Assuming you can convince the guys to drive 4 hours round-trip twice a week for 6 months).
    I'd say you have sized up the situation very well. In our case, the Texas Forest Service is our main training provider. They are now the Texas A&M Forest Service, and nearly the vast majority of their trainings are held in College Station. For us, the drive to College Station is the equivalent of driving from Chicago to Detroit. It isn't very practical. We don't have anyone on the department that could afford that kind of training. Our department's budget might not even be able to pay for the fuel, much less room or anything else.

    Add unfunded mandates for us, and we are gone. We don't have a departmental pumper (or structure gear or SCBA for most of our members), so even if we do train for FF1, what exactly are we training for? We have wildland trucks and wildland gear. We don't have any hydrants in our area that can support a pumper if we had one.

    We spend most of our time training for wildland fire and medical assists/medivac landing zones. We do some extraction training. We are equipped for those things, and we have people on the department with enough experience to train for those things. We have tried to get Wildland FF certified, and have been trying to since October, although thus far we have been unable to get the appropriate training local enough for us to become certified. No way the state ever provides us a viable option for FFI.

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Agreed.. and I admit I don't know squat about VFD's in Texas. It's just easy for me to picture the politicians on both sides trying to push something that would be very hard for the VFD's to comply with. I can also see OTHER politicians trying to correct the first group through legislation that on its surface sounds extremely regressive.
    That's how our state generally works. Currently, the state sees us as expendable. It is easier for us to get accidental death/disability insurance reimbursed from the state than it is to get training or PPE. With a view like that, why would we want these same people regulating us?

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    WVFD ....

    Thank you for the view of reality for rural VFDs in TX.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Are you, or have you ever, been an active EMT running on an ambulance LA?
    Yes, was certified as an EMT-B in 1982 and kept it up until 1986.

    Was certified as First Responder in 1998, and retook and was recertified as an EMT-B in 2004.

    I have about 10 years running on a bus plus another 6 or 8 years running first response with a fire department, plus time on the National Ski Patrol.

    By the way, I am also FFI/FFII, Instructor I/II, Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II, Driver/Operator Pumper and Fire Officer I since I am sure there is a point to your question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I quite willing to operate aggressively at fires when there is viable property and enough training, experiences and resources on the fireground to guarantee that my personnel will walk away and go to their full-time jobs the next day.
    There is NO GUARANTEE in this life except that at some point you will die. If you are looking for a guarantee in this line of work that you will never get hurt then you are in the wrong line of work. There is not a person in the world that wants to get hurt on the job but it is going to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, was certified as an EMT-B in 1982 and kept it up until 1986.

    Was certified as First Responder in 1998, and retook and was recertified as an EMT-B in 2004.

    I have about 10 years running on a bus plus another 6 or 8 years running first response with a fire department, plus time on the National Ski Patrol.

    By the way, I am also FFI/FFII, Instructor I/II, Inspector I/II, Fire & Life Safety Educator I/II, Driver/Operator Pumper and Fire Officer I since I am sure there is a point to your question.
    There is a point to my question, but it has nothing to do with the rest of your resume.

    While working on the ambulance, did you ever run any PNB's? Did you perform CPR in the back of a moving ambulance? Why?
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    There is a point to my question, but it has nothing to do with the rest of your resume.

    While working on the ambulance, did you ever run any PNB's? Did you perform CPR in the back of a moving ambulance? Why?
    PNBs?

    And yes, I have performed CPR many times while transporting.

    Why ... Because it was part of the job.
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    PNB - Pulse, not breathing?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PNBs?

    And yes, I have performed CPR many times while transporting.

    Why...Because it was part of the job.
    Guess what La...searching involved buildings and extinguishing the fire before it destroys the building are part of the job, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    PNBs?

    And yes, I have performed CPR many times while transporting.

    Why ... Because it was part of the job.
    Doing manual CPR in any sort of effective manor requires one to be in an "unsafe" situation - standing and not wearing a seatbelt while the vehicle is in motion.

    Well, searching for/rescuing victims and squirting water on the fire from the inside is inherently "unsafe" and it's also..............wait for it................................................ .....PART OF THE JOB!!!!!
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